Genetic question

Kite High

Well-Known Member
Fact One:
There are genetic tendencies for different strains which under environmental stress produce more or less hermis to the same environmental stress.

Fact Two:
If you continually select strains through hermi production of seeds, you are inherently selecting for those genetics which responded to the environmental stress.
Irregardless of the environmental stress, even though you really wanted to select for other characteristics. Its part of the population and you are inadvertantly keeping them in the selected population.

This has nothing to do with fem seed production for use by production growers. The horrific was specifically referring to creating fem'd seeds and then using those seed to derive selected breeding stock. BIg Difference
when chemically induced (sts, etc.) there is no promotion of the survival trait as it was not the trait which was the causation of male flowers...it is the absence of copper in the ethylene receptors which cannot detect the ethylene therefore the plant produce male flowers...it is not stress reduced nor the survival trait which is in action

Now with Rodelization, the femming style done by Soma, then yes an inadvertent promotion of the survival trait occurs as you are using this trait to produce the pollen
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
when chemically induced (sts, etc.) there is no promotion of the survival trait as it was not the trait which was the causation of male flowers...it is the absence of copper in the ethylene receptors which cannot detect the ethylene therefore the plant produce male flowers...it is not stress reduced nor the survival trait which is in action

And how do you explain the fact that some varieties or individual plants will produce male flowers at a specified dosage of CS and others do not?
Consistent variability in a population can be selected.
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
And how do you explain the fact that some varieties or individual plants will produce male flowers at a specified dosage of CS and others do not?
Consistent variability in a population can be selected.
because cs in unreliable...try sts...works like a charm every time...haven't encountered one resistor to two spray a week apart twice when initiating flower
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
here you go ...hope it helps

ATTENTION!!! ALWAYS ORDER SEPARATELY FROM TWO DIFFERENT SOURCES!!! YOU HAVE BEEN NOTIFIED
The following is a safe, inexpensive, and successful method for reversing the sex of female cannabis plants. Individual plant responses may vary based upon strain, but I can verify that this process is fully effective in stimulating profuse staminate flower production.

This process can be used to:
A: create new feminized seeds from solitary prize mothers that you currently have
B: create interesting feminized-seed hybrids from different prize strains that you currently have
C: create feminized seeds for optimum outdoor use
D: accelerate the "interview" phase of cultivation, in searching for interesting new clone-mothers
E: reduce total plant numbers- great for medical users with severe plant number restrictions
F: increase variety, by helping to create stable feminized seedlines to be used as an alternative to clones

At the bottom of this post are some specific details about the chemicals used, their safety, their cost, and where to get them.

It is important to educate yourself about cannabis breeding theory and technique prior to using a method like this one. Here is a link to Robert Clarke's "Marijuana Botany", which is a very good reference.

http://planetganja.net/Ebooks/Marijuana%20Botany.pdf

It is also important to use basic safety precautions when mixing and handling these chemicals, so read the safety data links provided. The risk is similar to mixing and handling chemical fertilizers, and similar handling procedures are sufficient.

Remember: nothing will ever replace good genetics, and some of your bounty should always go back towards the professional cannabis breeders out there... the ones who have worked for many generations to come up with their true-breeding F1 masterpieces. Support professional breeders by buying their seeds. Also, order from Heaven's Stairway. Not that they need a plug from me, but they are very professional and provide very fast service worldwide.

Preparation of STS:
First, a stock solution is made. It consists of two parts (A and B) that are initially mixed separately, then blended together. Part A is ALWAYS mixed into part B while stirring rapidly. Use distilled water; tap water may cause precipitates to form.

Wear gloves while mixing and using these chemicals, and mix and use in a properly ventilated area. A mask will prevent the breathing of any dust, which is caustic. STS is colorless and odorless, and poses minimal health risks if used as described here. (See material safety data sheet links below). Note that silver nitrate and STS can cause brown stains upon drying, so spray over newspaper and avoid spilling.

Part A: 0.5 gram silver nitrate stirred into 500ml distilled water
Part B: 2.5 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 500ml distilled water

The silver nitrate dissolves within 15 seconds. The sodium thiosulfate takes 30-45 seconds to dissolve.

The silver nitrate solution (A) is then mixed into the sodium thiosulfate solution (B) while stirring rapidly. The resulting blend is stock silver thiosulfate solution (STS).

This stock solution is then diluted at a ratio of 1:9 to make a working solution. For example, 100ml of stock STS is added to 900ml of distilled water. This is then sprayed on select female plants.

Both the stock STS and the working solution should be refrigerated after use, as well as the powdered chemicals, to avoid activity loss. Excess working solution can be safely poured down the drain after use (with ample running water) with negligible environmental impact. It's pretty cheap.

Each liter of stock STS will make ten 1-liter batches of working solution of STS. With the minimum amount of base chemicals ordered from Photographer's Formulary (see link below), this means that each 1-liter bottle of working solution STS costs less than 9 cents, and can treat 15-20 mid-sized plants. That's 200 1-liter batches of STS for $18. Note that the distilled water costs far more than the chemicals.

Application:
The STS working solution is sprayed on select female plants until runoff. Do the spraying over newspaper in a separate area from the flower room. You probably won't smell anything, but ventilate anyway. You now have what I call a "F>M plant"; a female plant that will produce male flowers.

After the F>M plant dries move it into 12/12 immediately. This is usually done three to four weeks prior to the date that the target (to be pollinated) plants will be ready to pollinate. Response times may vary slightly depending upon the strain. More specific times can be determined by trial with your own individual strains. In my trials it took 26 days for the first pollen. 30-35 days seems optimum for planning purposes.

So, assuming that a target plant needs 3-4 weeks to produce fully mature seeds, a strain that takes 8 weeks to mature should be moved into flower at about the same time as the female>male plant. A target plant that finishes flowering in 6 weeks needs to be moved into flower later (10 days or so) so that it doesn't finish before the seeds can fully mature.

A seeded individual branch can be left to mature on a plant for a bit longer, while harvesting the other seedless buds if they finish first. Just leave enough leaves on for the plant for it to stay healthy.

Effects:
Within days I noticed a yellowing of the leaves on the F>M plants. This effect persisted for two weeks or so; after this they became green again, except for a few of the larger fans. The plants otherwise seemed healthy. No burning was observed. Growth stopped dead for the first ten days, and then resumed slowly. No stretch was ever seen. After two weeks the F>M plants were obviously forming male flower clusters. Not just a few clusters of balls, but complete male flower tops. One plant still formed some pistillate flowers, but overall it was predominantly male.

It is strange indeed to see an old girlfriend that you know like the back of your hand go through a sex change. I'll admit that things were awkward between us at first.

When the F>M plants look like they may soon open and release pollen, ( 3-1/2 to 4 weeks) move them from the main flower room into another unventilated room or closet with lighting on a 12/12 timer. Don't worry too much about watts per square foot; it will only be temporary.

When the pollen flies, move your target plants into the closet and pollinate.

A more controlled approach is to isolate the F>M plants in a third remote closet (no light is necessary in this one, as they are releasing pollen now and are nearly finished anyway). In this remote other closet the pollen is very carefully collected in a plastic produce bag or newspaper sleeve and then brought back to the lighted closet, where the target plants are now located. If this is done, be careful to not mix pollen types by letting the F>Ms dust each other. Avoid movement, or use yet another closet.

Take special care to not let pollen gather on the outside of this bag- a static charge is sometimes present. Drop small open clusters of blooms inside and then close the bag at the mouth and shake. Important: next, step outside and slowly release the excess air from the bag, collapsing it completely, so that pollen doesn't get released accidently. Point downwind; don't let it get on your hands or clothes.

This collapsed pollinated bag is now very carefully slipped over only one branch and is then tied off tightly at the mouth around the branch stem with a twist tie or tape, sealing the pollen inside. Let the bag inflate slightly with air again before sealing it off, so the branch can breathe. This technique keeps the entire plant from seeding. Agitate the bag a bit after tying it off to distribute the pollen. Don't forget to label the branch so you know which seeds are which. Other branches on this same plant can be hit with different pollen sources.

If no lighted closet is available, the plant can be moved back into the main room, but- be very carefulollen is sneaky. After 4-5 days, the bag is gently removed and the plant completes it's flowering cycle.

Yet another method has worked well for me. I position the target plants in a non-ventilated lighted closet, and then I collect pollen on a piece of mirror or glass. This is then carefully applied to the pistils of one pre-labeled branch by using a very fine watercolor paintbrush. Care is taken to not agitate the branch or the pollen. No sneezing. The plant needs to be in place first; moving it after pollination can shake pollen free and blow this technique.

Regardless of technique, at completion you will have feminized seeds. Let them dry for 2-4 weeks.

About the chemicals:
Silver nitrate is a white crystalline light-sensitive chemical that is commonly used in photography. It is also used in babies' eyes at birth to prevent blindness. It can cause mild skin irritation, and it stains brown. Avoid breathing. I didn't notice any smell or fumes, but ventilation is recommended. Be sure to wash the spray bottle well before you use it elsewhere; better yet: devote a bottle to STS use. A half gram is a surprisingly small amount; it would fit inside a gel capsule.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

.preparation of silver thiosulfate (sts) solution

silver thiosulfate (sts) is commonly used to block the action of ethylene in plant cell cultures. Ethylene is a hormone that is present in the gaseous state. Ethylene increases during senescence and ripening, and has been shown to increase in plant cell cultures due to wounding or the presence of auxins. Silver nitrate may be used alone to block the action of ethylene but it is not transported as well as sts thus is seldom used alone.

Prepare a 0.1 m sodium thiosulfate (sts) stock solution by dissolving 1.58 g of sodium thiosulfate (product no. S 620) into 100 ml of water. Prepare a 0.1 m silver nitrate stock solution by dissolving 1.7 g of silver nitrate (product no. S 169) into 100 ml of water. Store the stock solution in the dark until needed to prepare the sts.

The sts solution is prepared with a molar ratio between silver and thiosulfate of 1:4, respectively. Nearly all of the silver present in the solution is in the form of [ag (s2o3)2]3-, the active complex for ethylene effect inhibition.
Prepare a 0.02 m sts by slowly pouring 20 ml of 0.1 m silver nitrate stock solution into 80 ml of 0.1 m sodium thiosulfate stock solution. The sts can be stored in the refrigerator for up to a month. However, preparation of the sts just prior to use is recommended.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________





A SIMPLE SAFE AND INEXPENSIVE FEMMING METHOD

LINKS TO THE CHEMICALS:

sodium thiosulfate

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/124109-REG/Photographers_Formulary_10_1370_1LB_Sodium_Thiosulfate_Anhydrous.html

Silver Nitrate

http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Silver-Nitrate-10g-P6503.aspx


ATTENTION!!! ALWAYS ORDER SEPARATELY FROM TWO DIFFERENT SOURCES!!! YOU HAVE BEEN NOTIFIED
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
chemical selfing does not promote the survival trait
here you go...its free as well

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9700900/Clarke-Robert-C-Marijuana-Botany-an-Advanced-Study
nice read, however everything stated in this study confirms my conclusion that using any method to produce hermaphrodite to produce a selection population can inadvertently select for inheritable hermaphrodite tendencies. Its a good way to produce fem seeds for production, but as continued breeding stock is definitely not desirable. In fact if I had the means to setup a real breeding program, I would strive to produce strains that resist producing hermaphrodites flowers, by throwing marginal levels of different stresses including chemical to screen large populations.
 

Trousers

Well-Known Member
nice read, however everything stated in this study confirms my conclusion that using any method to produce hermaphrodite to produce a selection population can inadvertently select for inheritable hermaphrodite tendencies.
Logically that does not make any sense. Every female cannabis plant has the ability to produce male flowers. Tricking the plant into doing so does not change the dna. If every female can be turned, those tendencies will be in every female plant. Those tendencies will be in every female plant produced by regular seeds too.

Its a good way to produce fem seeds for production, but as continued breeding stock is definitely not desirable.
Why?
Have you done so?
do you have a link?

In fact if I had the means to setup a real breeding program, I would strive to produce strains that resist producing hermaphrodites flowers, by throwing marginal levels of different stresses including chemical to screen large populations.
So you have never made feminized seeds and you are qualified to dispense advice about it?
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
its basic genetics. If its inheritable (which it is) and if there is variability in varieties, strains or populations and you have a means of selecting one can increase the chances of that trait being inherited or decrease the chances of inheritence in subsequent generations.

I never said that CS itself is changeing the DNA, thats why fem seeds are fine for production grows. The increased chance of more hermies in one generation of selfing
is relatively low.

I have a degree in Plant Breeding from some little university in upstate new york.
 

Trousers

Well-Known Member
its basic genetics. If its inheritable (which it is) and if there is variability in varieties, strains or populations and you have a means of selecting one can increase the chances of that trait being inherited or decrease the chances of inheritence in subsequent generations.

I never said that CS itself is changeing the DNA, thats why fem seeds are fine for production grows. The increased chance of more hermies in one generation of selfing
is relatively low.

I have a degree in Plant Breeding from some little university in upstate new york.

CS and STS just activate hormones. They work on most every plant. It is not as if you spray 100 plants and only one produces male flowers.
Every plant I have sprayed has produced male flowers.

What you are saying does not make sense.
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
CS and STS just activate hormones. They work on most every plant. It is not as if you spray 100 plants and only one produces male flowers.
Every plant I have sprayed has produced male flowers.

What you are saying does not make sense.
if thats what you really believe then fine we disagree. But you might want to explore what happens if you apply dosages at 10% or 1% and see how many of the population produce hermies. Do you test a sample of 100 ? 500 ? or 1000? Until you hit population numbers in the hundreds or thousands you have no idea what your genomes are capable of. Believe it or not the majority of plant breeding is by the numbers, statistical selection for that 1% of the population that are carrying the traits that you want. Not the picture perfect mendelian genetic examples in text books.

But I do know if you ever start trying to sell your own strains that I will stay Far away from your seed since you are inadvertently NOT selecting for plants which are resistant to producing male flowers under various growing conditions.
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
nice read, however everything stated in this study confirms my conclusion that using any method to produce hermaphrodite to produce a selection population can inadvertently select for inheritable hermaphrodite tendencies. Its a good way to produce fem seeds for production, but as continued breeding stock is definitely not desirable. In fact if I had the means to setup a real breeding program, I would strive to produce strains that resist producing hermaphrodites flowers, by throwing marginal levels of different stresses including chemical to screen large populations.
Please listen without adding your perception...The silver does NOT stress them at all...it merely inactivates the ethylene receptors in the plants so the hormone, a gaseous one , ehtylene, that triggers female flower production is not detected so male flowers are produced instead of female. It does not employ the survival gene/trait at all. these are two entirely different processes. In actuality it is not a hermaphrodite but rather a male. The variance in amount of silver required has nothing to do with the survival gene/trait but rather how much silver is needed to displace/mask the copper in the receptors and of course this will vary to some degree but IME with femmed crosses I have not found any that are resistant to the sts nor any promotion of the survival trait, which botanically as well as genetically, is impossible.
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
if thats what you really believe then fine we disagree. But you might want to explore what happens if you apply dosages at 10% or 1% and see how many of the population produce hermies. Do you test a sample of 100 ? 500 ? or 1000? Until you hit population numbers in the hundreds or thousands you have no idea what your genomes are capable of. Believe it or not the majority of plant breeding is by the numbers, statistical selection for that 1% of the population that are carrying the traits that you want. Not the picture perfect mendelian genetic examples in text books.

But I do know if you ever start trying to sell your own strains that I will stay Far away from your seed since you are inadvertently NOT selecting for plants which are resistant to producing male flowers under various growing conditions.
Then it will cause you to not buy fems from anyone as there are many many femmed crosses for sale many of which are very popular and receive rave reviews. All bred and crossed with femmed pollen. You need to stop putting the survival trait and chem forced fems in the same category. Now with rodelization, the fem method that Soma employs , then your sentiments are correct and accurate but not so with chem induced feminization.
 

Trousers

Well-Known Member
if thats what you really believe then fine we disagree. But you might want to explore what happens if you apply dosages at 10% or 1% and see how many of the population produce hermies.
Why would I do that? that would be dumb. 100% of the plants that I have treated with colloidal silver have produced viable pollen.

I do not think you understand what a "hermie" is. A real hermaphrodite has both an X and a Y chromosome. A female plant that has been tricked into producing male flowers has no Y chromosome. It is not a real hermaphrodite.

Do you test a sample of 100 ? 500 ? or 1000? Until you hit population numbers in the hundreds or thousands you have no idea what your genomes are capable of.
You are missing the point. It is pretty simple. Every female plant can be made to produce male flowers. How does that make for some sort of "hermie selection"?

Believe it or not the majority of plant breeding is by the numbers, statistical selection for that 1% of the population that are carrying the traits that you want. Not the picture perfect mendelian genetic examples in text books.
You are missing the point.

But I do know if you ever start trying to sell your own strains that I will stay Far away from your seed since you are inadvertently NOT selecting for plants which are resistant to producing male flowers under various growing conditions.
lol
 

Figong

Well-Known Member
its basic genetics. If its inheritable (which it is) and if there is variability in varieties, strains or populations and you have a means of selecting one can increase the chances of that trait being inherited or decrease the chances of inheritence in subsequent generations.

I never said that CS itself is changeing the DNA, thats why fem seeds are fine for production grows. The increased chance of more hermies in one generation of selfing
is relatively low.

I have a degree in Plant Breeding from some little university in upstate new york.
Which little university in upstate new york? I'm not counting a degree mill. Have to ask.
 

Sir.Ganga

New Member
A female plant that produces male flowers is not a real hermaphrodite.
Well technically your incorrect.

[h=1]Hermaphrodite[/h]From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Hermaphrodite (disambiguation).

In biology, a hermaphrodite from Greek (ερμαφρόδιταis) is an organism that has reproductive organs normally associated with both male and female sexes

That makes ANY plant with both sex organs a hermaphrodite, no matter how it happens.

Seems like someone just likes to argue because sadly both of you have valid points but refuse to listen to each other
 

Trousers

Well-Known Member
Well technically your incorrect.

Hermaphrodite

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Hermaphrodite (disambiguation).

In biology, a hermaphrodite from Greek (ερμαφρόδιταis) is an organism that has reproductive organs normally associated with both male and female sexes

That makes ANY plant with both sex organs a hermaphrodite, no matter how it happens.

Seems like someone just likes to argue because sadly both of you have valid points but refuse to listen to each other
That is an incomplete definition.
I have listened to purplebuz. He can not explain his point logically. It does nort make any sense.

While technically a plant that has both male and female flowers could be called a hermaphrodite, it is not really correct.

From wikipedia:
Cannabis normally has imperfect flowers, with staminate "male" and pistillate "female" flowers occurring on separate plants.[SUP][11][/SUP] It is not unusual, however, for individual plants to bear both male and female flowers.[SUP][12][/SUP] Although monoecious plants are often referred to as "hermaphrodites," true hermaphrodites (which are less common) bear staminate and pistillate structures on individual flowers, whereas monoecious plants bear male and female flowers at different locations on the same plant.
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
its basic genetics.

yeah guys! c,mon it just basic "genetics". man put you hands in your pockets instead of on the keyboard. if "genetics" are so basic then why are they making you look the fool? "genetics, so easy a caveman could do it":roll:

why dont you listen stop lying, read, and learn. they give tough love, but they are intelligent and will provide the proper answers if you just read and do the research yourself.
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
trousers is correct, just because a plant displays male flowers, technically does not make it "herm". being herm is being "transgender" meaning you have the capability of boh genders, this requires an actual chromosomal mutation.

males that herm, which is much much less common, produce vestigial female flowers and cannot self pollinate.

females that herm, produce fem seed meaning that their DNA is female not male, not hermaphrodite. if you cross a "herm" with another strain to give it some stability, you will get all female seeds.
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
trousers is correct, just because a plant displays male flowers, technically does not make it "herm". being herm is being "transgender" meaning you have the capability of boh genders, this requires an actual chromosomal mutation.

males that herm, which is much much less common, produce vestigial female flowers and cannot self pollinate.

females that herm, produce fem seed meaning that their DNA is female not male, not hermaphrodite. if you cross a "herm" with another strain to give it some stability, you will get all female seeds.

yes trousers is correct. we were really talking about genetic Female plants that have the ability to produce male flowers for whatever reason. Not strictly true hermaphrodite plants or Monoecious plants which is actually predominant in the plant world. Dioecious is the minority in the plant world. Most plants have the ability to produce both male and female parts. Natural Cross pollination occurs because of wind, bees, birds and Humans.

Howver, most people say that a plant hermied when a female plant produces male flowers irregardless since the simple common definition for a hermie is an organism that has both male and female characteristics.
 
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