God and Free Will.

iNVESTIGATE said:

blah blah blah blurpty blurp!



lol "God" is an idea. Created in the minds of primitive people thousands upon thousands of years ago when we had no real idea of what is what and desperately wanted an easy explanation. Outdated and nonsensical. Freewill is alive. Every action has a reaction. Be respectful to ACTUAL living people and reciprocate those feelings in social-life while we still and only have this ONE life. Fuck god.

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I would respectfully disagree,
consider for a moment that what you perceive as "God", is as you say an idea or notion given to you by the consciousness of another individual. However this notion was expressed in the most empathetic means possible, personification. Now filter your perception of the "God" through the lens that is not of personage, abstract that what you understand as a human. You can perceive this working through people and inside of us because as you say it is "us". It is all things then, now, and to be all at the same time! It is the beginning and the end, of which infinite wisdom is defined. It is the very tenderness that moves you at the point of your origin that is the sense of your strength, love, compassion, hope, fear, dispair, and triumph. At the moment you recognize, when you see it before you like a mirror with a fire in your eyes. In it's infinite simplicity all covered in misleading, misinterpreted, over complicated, misspoken truth, it still tells why. In the same sentence you both condemned and supported and justified this view, should you choose to perceive it that way.

I think the most intriguing aspect of free agency is a certain doctrine that advocates pre-existence. That we were the hosts of heaven that shouted for joy when the plan of salvation was introduced and we fought on the side of God and helped throw down the Adversary and his followers. This is called "Keeping our First Estate". That's why we have demons today that torment us. They hate us for what we've done to them. Now this is not mainstream doctrine. It comes from particular sects.

Man was also in the a beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

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Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee....

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Fascinating stuff.

Carne Seca said:

I think the most intriguing aspect of free agency is a certain doctrine that advocates pre-existence. That we were the hosts of heaven that shouted for joy when the plan of salvation was introduced and we fought on the side of God and helped throw down the Adversary and his followers. This is called "Keeping our First Estate". That's why we have demons today that torment us. They hate us for what we've done to them. Now this is not mainstream doctrine. It comes from particular sects.





Fascinating stuff.

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I was taught that growing up Mormon.

Windsblow said:

I was taught that growing up Mormon.

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Me too.

I grew up in a predominately Mormon area, no offense but if a person doesn't start questioning things after hearing that line then they probably wont ever. lol
So you guys like that show Big Love

colocowboy said:

I grew up in a predominately Mormon area, no offense but if a person doesn't start questioning things after hearing that line then they probably wont ever. lol
So you guys like that show Big Love

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What do you mean "line""

Nope, doesn't really have anything to do with Mormonism.

No I really meant, did you like that show? I thought is was really good and it did highlight somethings that I know to be true, many more that I don't care to elaborate. I wasn't being dodgy, that sort of came out wrong.

I mean, there is DNA evidence that disproves Joseph Smith's doctrine of lineage and the "Celestial Kingdom"...... really? Don't get me wrong, in terms of benefit of religion to it's participants Mormons are fulfilling the purpose of organized religion with more positive zeal than many others. I am just saying that the story is subject, take that as you will. I think the concept of God, Heaven, Hell is probably more simple and intimate that people would like to believe. There is a lot of credibility to the thought that abstracting our selves from our inevitable reality is silly and just a means for a fragile intellect to find rest alone in the cold dark night.

I think a lot of the incompatibility many of the posters see here between an omnipotent God and free will can be eased a bit if God is not confined to being a singular entity. Making God an entity creates many apparent paradoxes: Who made God, Could God create a rock that he couldn't lift, etc. It is sometimes helpful to consider the possibility that God is the all, the great mystery, that which encompasses what we cannot know-- for you fans of science out there, consider God to be Space-Time for a moment.

As Snow Crash touched on, in a relativistic universe, we are all fixed in space-time. So, according to Einstein, your death already is-- the time and circumstance for it fixed. That does not preclude free will, because free will is the process of the present that will carry you to that death. If I read a book, the characters may be acting with free will on every page, but it doesn't change what is written on the last page.

"I mean, there is DNA evidence that disproves Joseph Smith's doctrine of lineage and the "Celestial Kingdom".

I don't even know what means.

I like that explanation, I perceive it such that all things will, can and have. It is your choice to be who/where/what/why/how your are for what ever reason your stuck on it. Millions of points of consciousness either freely willing or willing freely, endlessly circling the nucleus that binds us all.

The Native Americans aren't decedents of Israel and you probably aren't getting your own planet or whatever. lol

How is there proof that you don't get your own planet? I mean maybe the DNA thing can be debated but how could you prove anything about the after life?

colocowboy said:

I grew up in a predominately Mormon area, no offense but if a person doesn't start questioning things after hearing that line then they probably wont ever. lol
So you guys like that show Big Love

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This is a discussion about free agency not Mormonism. I'm giving a perspective that I'm familiar with. If you want to bash Mormons then please start another thread. Thanks!

colocowboy said:

The Native Americans aren't decedents of Israel and you probably aren't getting your own planet or whatever. lol

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I don't know about that. My mom is pretty damn good with Jewish guilt.

Again, I am not bashing them at all. I respect and love my Mormon brothers! I also love my Satanist, Atheist, Christian Scientists, Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Shamanistic or what ever cut my fellow man is cut from.

I am saying that conceive that all our free will is sort of bottled, all things living simultaneous existence throughout space-time. Infinite points of consciousness enacting every conceivable choice simultaneously, constantly circling their creation. Choosing to be dissonant to the harmony or resonant to the harmony.

What if this is your heaven, your hell! What if every time you die you awake, either renewed by your journey of enlightenment or disjointed by a dissonant self effacing psychosis.

For all the Quantum World Enthusiast's, I would suggest looking up "quantum field theory". Too much to explain here and too confusing to cram, but it basically shows and explain how a photon can interact with a particle and it's antiparticle in a past and future event. Even demostrating how the future event as charted on a space-time diagram could have occured first. It really all goes back to the place of observation in space as seeing the event occur. However, this may lead to the point of no inherent freedom of choice or will, as everything that will take place has already done so as confined within this universe and yet we cannot conclude exactly what encompasses those confinements... Free Will...


"In space-time, everything which for each of us constitutes the past, the present, and the future is given en bloc..... Each observer, as his time passes, discovers, so to speak, new slices of space-time which appear to him as successive aspects of the material world, though in reality the ensemble of events constituting space-time exists prior to his knowledge of them."

Louis De Broglie

What's more depressing? Knowing that we'll never know the right answer, or that we will constantly be searching for it?

ESR360 said:

What's more depressing? Knowing that we'll never know the right answer, or that we will constantly be searching for it?

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Nothing is depressing about either of them. The search, regardless of whether or not you find, is the whole purpose of life.

Free Will = Choice
Even if God knows what choice your going to make, it's still your choice.