God and Free Will.

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Free Will = Choice
Even if God knows what choice your going to make, it's still your choice.
If anyone, god, time traveler or seer, knows what choice you will make then nothing you do will allow you to make a different choice, otherwise that makes the possibility that they could be wrong and for a perfect god, he can never be wrong. The fact that you cannot make another choice prior to making it makes it predetermined.
 

Beagle

Well-Known Member
God doesn't make choices for you. God May know that you will choose to drink milk at dinner instead of beer. Your the one who chose to drink milk, not God. If you were to travel back in time and tell yourself to drink the beer, you could still choose to drink milk. Time travel would probably bring alternate realities/universes in to the fold. Let's all keep in mind that time perceived by humans is not necessarily how time exists.
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
A free choice, to be truly free, cannot be predetermined or based in reason.

Because you have the choice of milk or beer, you have a predisposition to choose one or the other. Maybe you are lactose intolerant, had a terrible day, and the other series of events which happen in your life which are out of your control all add up to make the choice for you.

Every experience, the conglomeration of time and life, they lead you to places. Pre-determined places. Where you will then feel the illusion that your choice is in fact free. Yes, there is "choice" but the choice you make is never free of causality.

Free will is an unfortunate illusion found in the knowledge of self.
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
What does the choosing?A brain.
And what is a brain? A network of memories constructed on a genetic blueprint.
What is it made of? To be specific, atoms. To be more specific. Energy.

That's the point. We are made of energy. Causal, and predetermined to flow in a direction.

Thoughts, memories, reasons, choices. All of them occur in a causal system.
For there to be choice, there must be a chooser, and this "chooser" must exist outside of the current conceptual understanding of both a causal and/or probabilistic universe.

This is known as the "Soul Argument" and there is no argument to be made. If you simply believe, have faith in, a non-corporeal decider outside of the constricts of the universe. Completely unquantifiable. I cannot argue against things that very literally... Don't exist. Existentialism is a very slippery slope in the end.

University of Texas: Austin philosophy professor David Sosa

In a way, in our contemporary world view, it's easy to think that science has come to take the place of God. But some philosophical problems remain as troubling as ever. Take the problem of free will. This problem has been around for a long time, since before Aristotle in 350 B.C. St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, these guys all worried about how we can be free if God already knows in advance everything you're gonna do. Nowadays we know that the world operates according to some fundamental physical laws, and these laws govern the behavior of every object in the world. Now, these laws, because they're so trustworthy, they enable incredible technological achievements. But look at yourself. We're just physical systems too, right? We're just complex arrangements of carbon molecules. We're mostly water, and our behavior isn't gonna be an exception to these basic physical laws. So it starts to look like whether its God setting things up in advance and knowing everything you're gonna do or whether it's these basic physical laws governing everything, there's not a lot of room left for freedom.

So now you might be tempted to just ignore the question, ignore the mystery of free will. Say "Oh, well, it's just an historical anecdote. It's sophomoric. It's a question with no answer. Just forget about it." But the question keeps staring you right in the face. You think about individuality for example, who you are. Who you are is mostly a matter of the free choices that you make. Or take responsibility. You can only be held responsible, you can only be found guilty, or you can only be admired or respected for things you did of your own free will. So the question keeps coming back, and we don't really have a solution to it. It starts to look like all our decisions are really just a charade.
Think about how it happens. There's some electrical activity in your brain. Your neurons fire. They send a signal down into your nervous system. It passes along down into your muscle fibers. They twitch. You might, say, reach out your arm. It looks like it's a free action on your part, but every one of those - every part of that process is actually governed by physical law, chemical laws, electrical laws, and so on.

So now it just looks like the big bang set up the initial conditions, and the whole rest of human history, and even before, is really just the playing out of subatomic particles according to these basic fundamental physical laws. We think we're special. We think we have some kind of special dignity, but that now comes under threat. I mean, that's really challenged by this picture.

So you might be saying, "Well, wait a minute. What about quantum mechanics? I know enough contemporary physical theory to know it's not really like that. It's really a probabilistic theory. There's room. It's loose. It's not deterministic." And that's going to enable us to understand free will. But if you look at the details, it's not really going to help because what happens is you have some very small quantum particles, and their behavior is apparently a bit random. They swerve. Their behavior is absurd in the sense that its unpredictable and we can't understand it based on anything that came before. It just does something out of the blue, according to a probabilistic framework. But is that going to help with freedom? I mean, should our freedom be just a matter of probabilities, just some random swerving in a chaotic system? That starts to seem like it's worse. I'd rather be a gear in a big deterministic physical machine than just some random swerving.

So we can't just ignore the problem. We have to find room in our contemporary world view for persons with all that that entails; not just bodies, but persons. And that means trying to solve the problem of freedom, finding room for choice and responsibility, and trying to understand individuality.
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
Does the brain do the choosing, or does the mind?

Is that a quote from "Waking Life"?
Dualism is fallible and yes, that specific quote from David Sosa was used in Waking Life.

The mind is the brain and the brain is the mind.

In much the same way space is time and time is space.

Mind-Brain.
Space-Time.

They are mutually inclusive.
 

Brazko

Well-Known Member
* :idea:

As I become Wiser, Knowledgeable, and most of all "Aware" of my surroundings, a universe that I didn't know becomes evident to me. I mean as a child certain things I knew, but they had no distinctive acknowledged impact I considered on my life, so in all respect they very much as well didn't exist to me. And this carries on to this day, however, I'm Aware of so much more. I'm able to discern the nature of events and there meaning knowing the cause and the resulting effect by simply being more conscious of my surroundings and the events that are occuring. While the next person may be clueless to their actions and to the concluding events to follow which are inevitable to happen. What I'm saying some may interpet as Karma which I admit it does sound like pretty much but not quite like....I think. But I'll say this anyway that the way you choose to live, exist, and interact, a predetermined pattern can be conceived by those events/actions. Yes, I am going somewhere with this.

Now, when we look at the sub-atomic world we can construct the positions as to where we will find particles according to a certain pattern of existence. Those certain patterns are indicative of a certain level energy state that particle is at. When excited it displays a certain pattern and we will only find a particle with that particular energy state within that pattern and vice versa and so on. And if that is understood, also understand that there is only a set number of patterns that we know exist.

* Now, where I was going. Is it possible the events that are unfolding to us are predetermined, but the choice of choosing to live/exist at a certain level of awareness left up to us? Making the decision of how we exist our choice, but yet the pattern is always predetermined or for better words, SeT.....Free Will :joint:


And Yes I'm Puffing that GooD Shitt..:mrgreen:
 

Beagle

Well-Known Member
I like to think of the brain as the controls on an airplane and the mind as the pilot. But that's just me.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
God doesn't make choices for you. God May know that you will choose to drink milk at dinner instead of beer. Your the one who chose to drink milk, not God. If you were to travel back in time and tell yourself to drink the beer, you could still choose to drink milk. Time travel would probably bring alternate realities/universes in to the fold. Let's all keep in mind that time perceived by humans is not necessarily how time exists.
You sidestepped the whole point. God knows you will drink milk, and knew it before he created mankind. He knew that if he made mankind the way he did you would be drinking milk for dinner. Therefor he made the mankind the way it was with the intention of you drinking milk for dinner and you really have no choice to the contrary. He could of changed how he created mankind so that you would drink beer, but that isn't a choice, that is him changing what we are doing.

If I make a brick out of concrete, give it free will, and throw it in water. It sinks, I knew it would sink because I made it and I knew how it would react. If I make it out of foam and throw it in there, it will float. The brick has no free will, it just does what it was made to do. We are pretty much as complicated as a brick to an omniscient being. He knew 100% every choice we would make if he made us the way we did. That is what being omniscient means.
 

Windsblow

Well-Known Member
You sidestepped the whole point. God knows you will drink milk, and knew it before he created mankind. He knew that if he made mankind the way he did you would be drinking milk for dinner. Therefor he made the mankind the way it was with the intention of you drinking milk for dinner and you really have no choice to the contrary. He could of changed how he created mankind so that you would drink beer, but that isn't a choice, that is him changing what we are doing.

If I make a brick out of concrete, give it free will, and throw it in water. It sinks, I knew it would sink because I made it and I knew how it would react. If I make it out of foam and throw it in there, it will float. The brick has no free will, it just does what it was made to do. We are pretty much as complicated as a brick to an omniscient being. He knew 100% every choice we would make if he made us the way we did. That is what being omniscient means.
Who's to say he's omniscient? Why does he have to be all knowing? We understand how plants grow but no scientist can predict the pattern a vine will grow while climming a trellice? I can create things from scratch, like bread, understand the chemical processes but not know exactly how things will turn out. The concept of an omniscient being is a creation of the human mind. I don't believe GOD must be all knowing to be GOD.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Who's to say he's omniscient? Why does he have to be all knowing? We understand how plants grow but no scientist can predict the pattern a vine will grow while climming a trellice? I can create things from scratch, like bread, understand the chemical processes but not know exactly how things will turn out. The concept of an omniscient being is a creation of the human mind. I don't believe GOD must be all knowing to be GOD.
It was simply in reference to Christianity, Muslim, and Jewish faith. If you believe in something else, then your beliefs aren't up for question in this post.
 

Windsblow

Well-Known Member
It was simply in reference to Christianity, Muslim, and Jewish faith. If you believe in something else, then your beliefs aren't up for question in this post.
I am not challenging you. Sorry if it seemed like that. I was trying to be cool and butt into the conversation.
But I am a Christian and I don't think the GOD of Abraham has to be all knowing like most Christians want him to be.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
I am not challenging you. Sorry if it seemed like that. I was trying to be cool and butt into the conversation.
But I am a Christian and I don't think the GOD of Abraham has to be all knowing like most Christians want him to be.
It's cool. Doesn't the bible say he is all knowing? Without the bible how would we know God? If you aren't to trust the bible/torah/koran then what do you trust in? How can you be a christian and not believe in the bible? The bible is really all we know of Christ's word.
 

Windsblow

Well-Known Member
It's cool. Doesn't the bible say he is all knowing? Without the bible how would we know God? If you aren't to trust the bible/torah/koran then what do you trust in? How can you be a christian and not believe in the bible? The bible is really all we know of Christ's word.
That is a very long and complex theologic discussion I would love to get into, but I will just say, I don't believe everything men write is gospel.
 

Beagle

Well-Known Member
You sidestepped the whole point. God knows you will drink milk, and knew it before he created mankind. He knew that if he made mankind the way he did you would be drinking milk for dinner. Therefor he made the mankind the way it was with the intention of you drinking milk for dinner and you really have no choice to the contrary. He could of changed how he created mankind so that you would drink beer, but that isn't a choice, that is him changing what we are doing.

If I make a brick out of concrete, give it free will, and throw it in water. It sinks, I knew it would sink because I made it and I knew how it would react. If I make it out of foam and throw it in there, it will float. The brick has no free will, it just does what it was made to do. We are pretty much as complicated as a brick to an omniscient being. He knew 100% every choice we would make if he made us the way we did. That is what being omniscient means.
That was kind of my first point. Free will is choice. Even if God knows what choice your going to make(Destiny), you still make the choice and made the choices that lead up to that choice. At least that is what I believe.
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
That was kind of my first point. Free will is choice. Even if God knows what choice your going to make(Destiny), you still make the choice and made the choices that lead up to that choice. At least that is what I believe.
You make the choice to drink milk as much as the brick makes the choice to sink.

There is no choice. There is an illusion of choice.

Choice is not free will, because choices can be made "unfreely." Like Sophie's Choice.

Free-will and choice are mutually exclusive. You can have free-will with no choices to make, and simply "be" free. You can make choices based on causality and reason, without free-will.

As such, one is not the other.

There are many, many, fallacies with your logic Beagle.
There is no "pilot" only a plane filled with things that exist. The "mind" is not metaphysical.

The only place I think that a person can find footing when arguing for Free-will is when talking about photon interference and multi-universe theory. In this framework we actually make each choice. I say yes in one universe, and at that moment of decision an alternate version of myself is created (added to an infinite multi-verse). The alternate version of myself makes the other choice. In this manner we make both choices, in a similar fashion to how a photon can interfere with itself.

I would entertain discussion on this topic.

The current discussion about a pre-determined choice being a "free" choice is absolutely ridiculous. You might as well just come out and say what you really mean:
"Because I said so."
 

Beagle

Well-Known Member
There are many, many, fallacies with your logic Beagle.
There is no "pilot" only a plane filled with things that exist. The "mind" is not metaphysical.
You state this as fact, though there's a few different schools of thought to this.
The only place I think that a person can find footing when arguing for Free-will is when talking about photon interference and multi-universe theory. In this framework we actually make each choice. I say yes in one universe, and at that moment of decision an alternate version of myself is created (added to an infinite multi-verse). The alternate version of myself makes the other choice.
Are you saying in these alternate universes, the brick won't make the choice to sink?

Wouldn't an all knowing God know every choice your going to make in these alternate universes?
The current discussion about a pre-determined choice being a "free" choice is absolutely ridiculous. You might as well just come out and say what you really mean:
"Because I said so."
Thank you for insulting my beliefs.:clap:
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
Are you saying in these alternate universes, the brick won't make the choice to sink?

Wouldn't an all knowing God know every choice your going to make in these alternate universes?Thank you for insulting my beliefs.:clap:
1. Yes. In an alternate universe the brick is actually less dense than the water, or it holds a high volume of low density gas. For whatever reason every time you flip a coin and get heads in a parallel universe the coin comes up tails.

2. Yes. An all knowing God would be aware that at every choice there are multiple possibilities and that each of these possibilities occurs parallel to one another. As do you and I. As much as the result of the choice is predetermined the opportunity to make the choice in the first place is also predetermined.

3. Beliefs cannot be insulted. A person can be or feel insulted because of their beliefs. In this case, you understand that your beliefs are illogical (dualism and existentialism are not accurate philosophies) and as a result of your self coming to acknowledgement of this truth you feel insulted. This was not my intent, but seeing the truth when it comes to these schools of thought can be a very difficult process. I at first resisted the concepts presented to me in the Philosophy of Mind course I took at Cabrillo College with Claudia Close in Santa Cruz, CA. But over time, and as I took other courses like Eastern Philosophy and 19th century Thought I began to accept the truth.

We observe. This is certain. What does the observing, and the choosing, and the understanding... If it is causal... can never be truly free. When you bring the soul and God into the equation then this is a faith based argument and simply "is because I say it is. I feel it and I know it." The problem is we are intrinsically stuck inside our selves and we cannot know for certain if our feelings are "from beyond" or if they are simply the eletcro-chemical processes which are determined by rules and adhere to strictures occurring in the mind.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
You make the choice to drink milk as much as the brick makes the choice to sink.

There is no choice. There is an illusion of choice.

Choice is not free will, because choices can be made "unfreely." Like Sophie's Choice.

Free-will and choice are mutually exclusive. You can have free-will with no choices to make, and simply "be" free. You can make choices based on causality and reason, without free-will.

As such, one is not the other.

There are many, many, fallacies with your logic Beagle.
There is no "pilot" only a plane filled with things that exist. The "mind" is not metaphysical.

The only place I think that a person can find footing when arguing for Free-will is when talking about photon interference and multi-universe theory. In this framework we actually make each choice. I say yes in one universe, and at that moment of decision an alternate version of myself is created (added to an infinite multi-verse). The alternate version of myself makes the other choice. In this manner we make both choices, in a similar fashion to how a photon can interfere with itself.

I would entertain discussion on this topic.

The current discussion about a pre-determined choice being a "free" choice is absolutely ridiculous. You might as well just come out and say what you really mean:
"Because I said so."
Does an infinite multi-verse preclude free will also? Everything is happening, will happen, and has happened. That is sort of the definition of infinity isn't it? I'm not sure time exists itself. Wouldn't everything already exist at one time and thus nothing is actually happening or changing at all and no free will is possible because everything is already set at once? I should of taken philosophy in school, it is definitely a hard concept to grasp. Anyone have insight as to this?
 
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