Haul me to Heaven
New Member
And it's about to happen again!
I
Illegal Smile
Guest
Flash: Team of proctologists gives up trying to find mr craig's head.
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
I will first preface my comments with Bush = idiot, so that any denigration of Obama will not result in an obligatory Bush come back.
Plan for fixing economy? Obama is for currency inflation, deficit spending and decries the free market, that will not fix the economy. It will create a bigger problem down the road. Besides where/when has the power to "fix the economy" ever been delegated to the POTUS?
Getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan? Where is the constitutional authorization for the USA to occupy these countries in the first place?
You mention Obama has done a decent
job so far? How so? What has he done?
He has backed a Government run Healthcare plan that would force people to purchase something they may not want or need. I consider that "force" to be a very frightening growth of oppressive government.
The one good thing Obama has done is ask the DEA to back off, if he had any sack he'd realize the DEA should be disbanded and that they are a coercive and criminal organization.
Haul me to Heaven
New Member
That didn't take long! +rep 4 U
Haul me to Heaven
New Member
+ rep to you too Rob Roy! (One of my favorite movies!)
abe23
Active Member
Oh, so moveon.org is where you get your guidelines for appropriate political discourse? Also he got elected fair and square and he's constitutionally eligible to be president...if there were even anything remotely true about any of this, his political opponents (the smarter ones at least) would be up in arms about it. They aren't....the only people who actually believe this shit are probably still hoping for that email from their nigerian prince with his original kenyan birth certificate.
As for your 'plan', what happened last year wasn't a 'slump', it was a credit crisis that could have spiraled into something far worse and ended up being 'merely' the worst recession of the post-war era. Without TARP and the stimulus, the economy would be falling apart. We DO NOT have the world's best healthcare. Some things are good, but we pay far more than we should. I would actually argue that places like Germany or the Netherlands have better healthcare systems than we do. How do we 'prevail' in iraq and afghanistan and why haven't we been 'prevailing' so far?
As for the economy, I think the way tarp was handled and the stimulus (that was mostly tax cuts and infrastructure projects) went a long way in stopping the slide towards a depression. It's hard to speculate on what would have happened had none of it passed, granted, but I do think things would be a lot worse right now if it hadn't been for some of the deficit spending. If the economy recovers and grows, we might even end up with enough of a surplus to start addressing entitlement reform or the deficit....just ask bill clinton. And if you don't expect the president to do anything about the economy, then you can't blame him for unemployment or other bad indicators either.
Well, you could say that funding our operations in afghanistan and iraq is sort of an implicit authorization by congress to fight those wars, but I agree mostly. I hope that by the end of his first term we can get out of afghanistan.
As for healthcare reform, I don't think it's anymore outrageous for the government to force me to pay for health insurance than it is for them to force me to pay for highways, the military, the irs, the justice department and all the rest. Sure, I can risk not getting coverage and hope for the best, but if I have any sort of catastrophic injury or illness, you end up paying for my emergency room visits, whether you choose to or not. At least with universal coverage those costs are kept down and we will end up spending less on healthcare overall.
Good things obama has done in the past 11 months: stopping the economy from collapsing, coming up with a strategy for afghanistan, sending al-qaida assholes to federal court and, as you admit, putting some breaks on the federal steamroller that is the DEA....
Also, thank you both for having a reasonable discussion about this with me instead of the usual insults and stupidity. I prefer disagreeing with someone who can actually think for themselves than agreeing with someone who can't....
Rob Roy
Well-Known Member
abe23, you're welcome.
I am troubled how readily you accept government as the solution to many problems. I've done alot of thinking, alot of discussing, and alot of reading and I've come to the conclusion that government IS the problem. For instance it IS wrong to extort money whether it be for weapons to launch invasions of foreign lands or to force you to comply with any of their many other edicts.
The benefits of healthcare insurance and whether or not a consumer decides to purchase something should be left to the consumer to decide. Without that, there is no freedom.
Concerning the economy. The government did cause the depression. You may want to check out how the FEDERAL RESERVE operates, how it came about and how so far, they with an idiotic congress have been able to paper over problems by inflating the currency.
I'm afraid that game is close to running it's course. Why is gold and silver so high? Hmm.
I believe in freedom and the free market. I believe in helping people, I do not believe in forcing people that don't harm others. Peace.
I am troubled how readily you accept government as the solution to many problems. I've done alot of thinking, alot of discussing, and alot of reading and I've come to the conclusion that government IS the problem. For instance it IS wrong to extort money whether it be for weapons to launch invasions of foreign lands or to force you to comply with any of their many other edicts.
The benefits of healthcare insurance and whether or not a consumer decides to purchase something should be left to the consumer to decide. Without that, there is no freedom.
Concerning the economy. The government did cause the depression. You may want to check out how the FEDERAL RESERVE operates, how it came about and how so far, they with an idiotic congress have been able to paper over problems by inflating the currency.
I'm afraid that game is close to running it's course. Why is gold and silver so high? Hmm.
I believe in freedom and the free market. I believe in helping people, I do not believe in forcing people that don't harm others. Peace.
Haul me to Heaven
New Member
+ rep for Rob Roy Nicely put.
jeff f
New Member
are you saying he did this? if so, laughable
jeff f
New Member
TARP was done by bush. are you saying bush did a good job?
i am not. tarp was stupid. they didnt even spend it all and then just put it into a slush fund. oh, and by the way, there isnt any actual money in the fund. every last penny of it was borrowed. its easy to turn the printing press on. its harder once you start paying it back.
abe23
Active Member
Yes, actually getting TARP started quickly was one of the things he did well...
If the money isn't being spent and isn't even real to begin with then it shouldn't much of a problem to repay it when the time comes. I'm also curious as to your solution to the credit-crunch. Bite the bullet, let the economy bleed out and hope for the best?
abe23
Active Member
No, I'm not. It's actually right there in the part you quoted, if you had actually bothered to read it.
I was saying that this is the standard by which you people seem to be judging him as president. I'm pretty satisfied with a) economy didn't collapse, b) terrorists being in federal court and c) afghanistan plan. We'll see how 2010 goes...
jeff f
New Member
if you remeber, many banks didnt want the money but were forced to take it. wells fargo comes to mind. then, once they were forced to take it, some were nt allowed to pay it back when they wanted to.
my theory is that a couple of the real big guys, goldman sachs etc, were in trouble but people wouldnt go along with just bailing them out so others were forced to take part. that way the "crisis" fix was easier to stomach.
what should have been done? the good assets within the banks should have been sold to investers. the banks should have been sold off wholly or in pieces. just like any other bankrupt co. instead they put the burden on tax payers.
in the end, people took unreasonable risks and got no substantial penalty. in the meantime people who are struggling to pay their bills will now be forced to pay one of 2 ways, super high inflation and mounting interests rates, or taxation.
I
Illegal Smile
Guest
Tarp was an artifact of the incoming administration, Bush merely stepped out of the way. We can review statements made by Obama and the dems if you wish. Tarp money "is" being repaid and what does the Obama admin want to do with it? Spend it on something else, of course. And yes, the best solution would have been to let the economy bleed. If that had been done we'd be in a real recovery now. Instead a slump has been turned into a depression, but along the way we get some more socialism. The crisis was a hoax, the recovery is a hoax. One would think the warmers were behind it!
Haul me to Heaven
New Member
You are correct.What, only 2 or 3 Republicans voted for TARP and yet every single Democrate did!?
But Bush and the Republicans are 'blamed' for TARP. And why was TARP needed to begin with? And who was responsible for that? Democrates.
Have you ever noticed that they will never take blame for a failure caused by their hand. No. They blame the other side.
It's got to be a sickness. Psycho mind fucking people into believing they did nothing wrong. How sick is that.
Take responsibility. They won't. So they're gone in 10.
abe23
Active Member
Wow, you're even thicker than I thought....
That was a joke. If I were actually doing what you're accusing me of, would I really highlight the change I made in red and write "There, fixed it...." underneath?
I'm sorry you don't have a sense of humor. I'm pretty sure they have them on sale at walmart. (disclaimer: senses of humor are not actually sold at walmart)
Also, there wasn't any actual information or data in that sentence. It was all opinion and conjecture. I made a small change to bring it a little closer to reality is all and I informed you of that change quite clearly. No need to thank me...
I
Illegal Smile
Guest
You've been exposed - again.
abe23
Active Member
Yes, I've exposed myself again... not only am I a naive fool who wants a secret muslim to impose world government and turn us into denmark, I'm also a dangerous pervert who should be made to live under that a bridge in florida with all the sex offenders. (disclaimer: I didn't actually mean anything I just said)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Tuttle_Causeway_sex_offender_colony
(disclaimer: I didn't actually mean anything I just said)
Ok, that might have been trolling right there....not sure.
jeff f
New Member
i am gonna have to come to your defense. i think hmth misunderstood what you did. i got it as soon as i read it. also, he may have trouble reading it if it was in red if he were colorblind. all the letters would have looked gray. it will be interesting to hear his take.
abe23
Active Member
I appreciate that. I'm not here trying to antagonize anyone, just having fun arguing about politics in between reading about growing, so it kind of upsets me that people would take things so personally. Not that I don't care deeply about these things, it's just that we should be able to talk about them without all becoming assholes, especially to people who share our passion for the herb and are here for that reason. I might get carried away sometimes but I try my best to stick to the substance and be respectful...
I don't think we will be hearing his take on this and it looks like he scrubbed the thread clean of that whole episode, which is fine. I'd rather have some discussion than drama...
Oh, and again for the record: it's way to early to be judging obama and if we did we'd have to give him at least partial credit for containing the fallout from the economy....