whitebb2727
Well-Known Member
Tthe thing is that the leaves don't block the light. Some of it passes through. How far varies from one light source to another.
I'm in the mood to abuse my plant
- Thread starter Xs121
- Start date
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
The guy is trolling.
Abe sock?
He will probably use a different alias to endorse Eagle 20...
Abe sock?
He will probably use a different alias to endorse Eagle 20...
Flowki
Well-Known Member
I've seen a few credible side by sides done by growers such as @ttystikk if I'm not mistaken. They got lower yield on defoliated plant. I've also followed good growers who believe heavy targeted defoliation works. When I compere those grows to other good growers who don't defoliate the results are in favor of those who leave the plants alone for the most part. Topping and training is not quite the same, especially if you are on a perpetual with no mother, topping slows them down yet increases yield in the long run on top of (more importantly) keeping that cutting going. With no space for a mother that would only leave seeds as an alternative option for many. You want to get into seed sogs?, that's the obvious efficiency trade off. Veg light electric costs less than seeds.
Defoliation is very subjective and the lines are blurred. People who do too much defoliation don't speak about the added flower time it introduces, they also don't talk about how vegging too long forces defoliation in order to not over crowed > bud rot, rather than actually reducing plant count removing the need to defoliate. Heavy defoliation also increases veg time and is a huge loss in both perpetual and singular, be it time or annual weight. If you only have 2 weeks to veg, use more but smaller pots. If you have more time, use less but bigger pots + topping. It's a balance, if you need to defoliate you're getting that balance wrong. We all have or will make this mistake, obviously not all will see it that way and change.
It does not pay to be an emotional person who gets attached or worse still blinded by ego. Do what ever works and change on a dime if something does not. You can find enough evidence on riu alone to see that heavy defoliation is counter productive. A picture says 1000 words and it's true, 95% of growers who advocate heavy defoliation at any point here on riu have shitty low yielding, fried and tired looking plants, go see those.
The whole point of wisdom and history is to learn from the mistakes of others. If you can do that it is truly a gift and one hell of a game changer.
Defoliation is very subjective and the lines are blurred. People who do too much defoliation don't speak about the added flower time it introduces, they also don't talk about how vegging too long forces defoliation in order to not over crowed > bud rot, rather than actually reducing plant count removing the need to defoliate. Heavy defoliation also increases veg time and is a huge loss in both perpetual and singular, be it time or annual weight. If you only have 2 weeks to veg, use more but smaller pots. If you have more time, use less but bigger pots + topping. It's a balance, if you need to defoliate you're getting that balance wrong. We all have or will make this mistake, obviously not all will see it that way and change.
It does not pay to be an emotional person who gets attached or worse still blinded by ego. Do what ever works and change on a dime if something does not. You can find enough evidence on riu alone to see that heavy defoliation is counter productive. A picture says 1000 words and it's true, 95% of growers who advocate heavy defoliation at any point here on riu have shitty low yielding, fried and tired looking plants, go see those.
The whole point of wisdom and history is to learn from the mistakes of others. If you can do that it is truly a gift and one hell of a game changer.
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Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
When I first started growing I treated it like every other plant in the garden and other than growing 10' plants that never had a hope of finishing properly here I did ok. We got a lot of Mexican back then lol. Then I started reading the few books I could find in the message boards and proceeded to pull leaves, flush, boil roots (not for the same reason as discussed by RM3), and other teqniques that were supposedly potency/yield increasers. As for defoliation I could never get it to work for me, no matter when and how much, it just never seemed to do anything, in some cases it actually hurt yield. I'm not saying don't do it though. I think you should try it and try it more than once. Really what the fuck, it's a plant and so what if you lose a bit, grow more lol. I've tried it all and honestly the only thing I do now is top and train a bit, that seems to get me the most, the quickest, and that's my end game. I think it's cool to try different things and wish I had more time to do more things, I don't lol.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Very nice!
There's a good write up in the advanced growing forum about defoliation and it's benefits.
Buba Blend
Well-Known Member
Well put Flowki! That thread in the advanced section looks like a nice thread on Defoliating. I have nothing against doing it and think it can be done in a beneficial way. I find the thread on it in the newbie section taking place this week annoying.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/defoliation-opnions-needed-pics-provided.951866/
Like you said the ones advocating it in newbie central go on and on but not once will they talk about how a newbie should not do it because they may FUCK UP their plants. I posted comments as have others about their conversation and they have no response. I'm going to give them that thread so maybe they can join the conversation there in the advanced section.
The only time I'd ever suggest it to a newbie would be if they had tons of huge fan leaves laying all over each other, and id definitely make sure to tell them less is more. I think there's a time and place for it, obvious mold and mildew issues being the only real reason. Maybe a little for airflow if it's too stagnant.
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
I think most of us strategically trim and prune plants...any plants really in the garden not just cannabis. Defoliating is a bit extreme.
I have never once had a client say "Can you defoliate that ????". I do get asked to prune roses, limbs off trees and general plant housekeeping on a weekly bases.
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Absolutely!
I revegged several plants this year and had to trim the living shit out of them! It took a long time because I removed new stems but tried to keep as many fan leaves as possible. It's much easier if you manicure plants on a regular basis. That way you can just pinch off what you don't want while it's small.
Trimming plants after the flip is risky because they could herm from the extra stress.
Xs121
Well-Known Member
Thank you for that.
His second post is what leads me to this experiment. I've come across some articles that mentioned in passing the role of the different enzymes in relation to the root system and the above ground part of the plants (example; leaves). Meaning to say there's more to it than just a defoliated plant (if you can really define it as defoliation since there's plenty of leaves remaining in my plant in terms of mass).
Secondly, I agree with that write up in regards to the photosynthetic efficiency (or deficiency) of mature or aging leaves. That is why, I believe it's in the timing rather than outright defoliation of young plants which most defoliation technique is focused on. My timing is based on the last 2-3 weeks of flowering.
Will it work? We'll find out.
Xs121
Well-Known Member
Not trying to antagonize you but just pointing out that plant do stress out too if it has too much foliage. In the wild, plants will shed these extra leaves but we indoor growers have somewhat prevented that or slowed down the shedding of the mature leaves.
Flowki
Well-Known Member
I think the whole point of keeping them green indoor is that we harvest before the end of the harvest window and before significant leaf drop would take place out door. People force the plants to drop leaves in the beginning of the window indoor thinking that it is kick starting a natural process and ridding the plant of yada yada or helping it mature. I don't think that's true, as the plants out door at the same comparable time (flower times in/out differ I believe) will likely not be doing the same although may show different coloration due to superior sun spectrum, superior microbe/nutrient relations or even the opposite depending on soil quality.
From my experience you can't slow down the drop of healthy yet useless leaves. Normally what happens is the lower leaves in veg become way lower after stretch in 12/12 and will begin the process of dropping due to a net loss in light collection, it does not just happen in a day though. Also the mid leaves will begin to drop toward the end of mid flower when budding and water uptake slows so they are less needed. Most people will harvest before you see significant mid leaf drop, but it would happen, followed by upper leaf drop if getting to the end or other side of harvest window (I'd imagine). If lights/intensity is too much, light bleaching or upper leaf damage will begin to show and spread after around 5-7 weeks of flower giving off the impression of a natural fade.
You can ofc force feed too much of any nutrient in a toxic ratio so that when thirsty, the plant has no option but to uptake it or die from lack of water, essentially. Microbes and certain mulches can limit this effect but I don't imagine it to be good news in a pot. The point is though, you will see clear signs of toxicity that will either fry the leaves or slow down budding/flower times. Again, in my experience the plant won't keep healthy leaves that are not needed, no matter how balanced and available nutrients are.
Keeping them green I think is a term to be used loosely. They won't look like Christmas trees at harvest, but they will look a damn lot greener, healthier and weigh more than if you starve and force fade/defoliate.
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Xs121
Well-Known Member
To an extent I agree with what you're saying. However, I think, there's a significant differences in ethylene production between outdoor vs indoor plants. For one, outdoor plants are subject to higher level of biotic and abiotic stress regardless how rich is the soil where as indoor plants are more protected and in a (somewhat)controlled environment. Sure, eventually the leaves will be shed but the delay in ethylene production would also means the delay of ripening or maturation process depending of course on factors that influence the rate of ethylene production.
Good info though.
Off topic for a sec.... I found this article that I think is really really interesting and I believe a must share.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-intelligent-plant
Xs121
Well-Known Member
Okay
I started this thread in a satirical manner, some of you think its trolling, my mistake for assuming that satire is a commonly accepted form of humor and for that I apologize. My intent was to start this thread in a light-hearted manner and not to antagonize anybody, we can be intelligent and we can be having fun at the same time...nothing serious....stoner to stoner.
For the record...
I'm not here to force into anybody my experiences/experiments/theory/crazy logic...you are free to decide on your own.
I follow my own cannabis nutrient profile
I mix my own nute. I dont have any loyalty to any fertilizer brand, I'll use what I see fit.
I've design my own hybrid-hydro system for small and confined grow space.
I follow my own modified light schedule. (another crazy idea)
That said, pictures of the current experiment is in the next post and I'll refrain from explaining what I think is happening, you decide whether its working or not.
I started this thread in a satirical manner, some of you think its trolling, my mistake for assuming that satire is a commonly accepted form of humor and for that I apologize. My intent was to start this thread in a light-hearted manner and not to antagonize anybody, we can be intelligent and we can be having fun at the same time...nothing serious....stoner to stoner.
For the record...
I'm not here to force into anybody my experiences/experiments/theory/crazy logic...you are free to decide on your own.
I follow my own cannabis nutrient profile
I mix my own nute. I dont have any loyalty to any fertilizer brand, I'll use what I see fit.
I've design my own hybrid-hydro system for small and confined grow space.
I follow my own modified light schedule. (another crazy idea)
That said, pictures of the current experiment is in the next post and I'll refrain from explaining what I think is happening, you decide whether its working or not.
Buba Blend
Well-Known Member
It was a few years ago, plant was off to the side about 4 feet from the lights. Water only to the end. If it had full light it probably would have shown problems with a water only run. Lower leaves remained green. Water used was 80% ro 20% tap creating 175ppm water. Soil was ffof. It was supposed to be nirvana pure power plant, I'm not sure it was, I think they may have sent me the wrong seeds because it would put me to sleep.
The 3 blade leaf shown is the leaf that followed the single leaf. I have a bunch of pictures somewhere.
Last grow, not a good grow with small plants and a bunch of problems and airy mediocre buds that were RO only till the 4th week of flowering I ended up with some plants having the single blade leaf still fairly healthy. I'm in veg now and plan to grow larger heathy plants this time with nicer buds and will attempt to keep them green to the end. Just getting ready to start a journal. I'll add a link in my signature when I do.
