I'm in the mood to abuse my plant
- Thread starter Xs121
- Start date
Chunky Stool
Well-Known Member
Your plants are not at the same stage of development.
I saw something similar this year with three of my outdoor plants. All were the same strain, grown from seed, but one finished a couple weeks earlier than the others and I have no idea why. The early plant ended up being WAY better than the others. Better bud and more of it.
I should have taken a cutting. That pheno was a winner...
Xs121
Well-Known Member
Good point, I totally agree with you and I dont know why either. Same grow room, same light, same nute. When I started this, the one with the leaves actually is slightly bigger than the defoliated one. Well in fairness, the plant with leaves (which seem to continue putting out pistils), I'll compare its size and weight when its harvested even though the defoliated one might be harvested a week or so early.Your plants are not at the same stage of development.
I saw something similar this year with three of my outdoor plants. All were the same strain, grown from seed, but one finished a couple weeks earlier than the others and I have no idea why. The early plant ended up being WAY better than the others. Better bud and more of it.
I should have taken a cutting. That pheno was a winner...
Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
Outdoor plants fade and drop leaves even when fed to the end IME, the leaves stop producing chlorophyll as temps drop and turn color and fade. This has been the same with my plants year after year. The indoor plants stay green for the most part til chop and even beyond peak harvest they will be green. I have tried to keep outdoor grows "green till chop" and just end up over feeding and burning them. Perhaps in warmer climates this may not be as pronounced.
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
I'm growing 3 seeds of Northern lights from the same breeder. All 3 are different and all 3 will produce different and finish at different times, yet all 3 were germed on the same day under the same light in the same scrog and fed the same things in the same soil in the same pots.
Also your pictures are taken at different distances and of in some cases selective parts of the plant. I get your doing an experiment for you but really its not controlled nearly as much to make any conclusions.
Also your pictures are taken at different distances and of in some cases selective parts of the plant. I get your doing an experiment for you but really its not controlled nearly as much to make any conclusions.
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
This has been my experience as well particularly with Sativas which also go dormant or close to it in cool weather. At least in the case of the Sativa that I was growing for some time - Australian Blue. Which is a fairly long finisher and has a low leaf count.
Xs121
Well-Known Member
With plants there's really no way for a real tightly controlled experiment. Even with clones, each plant respond uniquely to its environment aside from the overall phenotype characteristics. The only way to solve this problem is to conduct multiple sample tests (everybody here can do a sample test) or in field testing, is to conduct a plot to plot comparison. Only then can you eliminate the phenotype biases. Once there is enough data gathered, a researcher can run a statistical analysis to find out if the results are significant and only then one can make a conclusive conclusion of the experiment.
But since we are all small growers here (I'm presuming), we can only conduct an informal experiment, at least something is being done.
lol
Unless I mount the camera in a tripod and measure the focal distance precisely there's no way for me to be exact with the distance. But in a way, you're right, I did enlarge the picture size of one or the other to match the 'size of the tape measure'. Ignore the plants for a moment and look at the physical size of the tape measure, that's pretty much the same size on both pictures. The tape measure doesnt lie.
Maybe I wasnt clear. I was comparing the size of the main colas of each plant (it's not a precise comparison but that's the best I can do). Also, I did mentioned at day 1 that the main cola of 'control plant' is slightly bigger than the defoliated plant (which is my smallest plant actually).
I do agree with you that it's too early to make any final conclusion. The real question here is.... if what we are seeing here justify multiple sample test. Is it worth repeating? If enough of us would try it with comparison (as best as we can) then we can arbitrarily make a group conclusion then we can come close to being scientific. My only requirement if any is willing to try it..is to do it at the final 2-3 weeks of flowering.
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Xs121
Well-Known Member
Well said. It's not the end of the world. lol
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
Its all been done before. Up to you if you want to repeat what others have done but if you are going to question the scientific results then you need to do it scientifically yourself IMO and cover all the variables like veg times and avg Co2 levels and measure difference in flower times, if any, as well. (From memory removing all the foliage lengthens flower time for eg as it does in veg ).
It may work on a small 1 month veg plant but may not work on a 3 month veg plant as one is going to require more food/water. Lots of variables.
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Budley Doright
Well-Known Member
What scientific results? I have not seen any scientific results pertaining to weed. Is there any? And I would think if I did 5 clones of each, defoliated and not, if one or the other five produced more and had nicer buds, I'd probably do it that way, sciencey enough for Budley lol. These by the way are not defoilated, bud trimming as we speak lol
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
There are lots and lots of scientific studies on cannabis.Here are a few https://www.thecannabisreporter.com/resources/cannabis-white-papers-research/ I'm pretty sure there has been a few science studies on defoliated cannabis and more of cause on trimming posted amongst the thousands of defoliating threads that usually don't mean defoliating...Most of cause don't cover to many variables and of cause most studies just come under botany plant science.
Pharma is currently trying to develop synthetic compounds that are easier to dose and put into a capsule form this does away with losing strains like has happened with ACDC and will legitimise the market more without the farming costs.
Enjoy ur trimming, I hope you have a few cold ones handy!
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Xs121
Well-Known Member
Man, cmon...which is which...is there a scientific study of weed defoliation? You questioned my methodology or the precision of my experiment but yet you cant even be sure if there is an actual study on cannabis defoliation?
Does this research has something to do with defoliation? It does something to do with cannabis but what is the relevance of those research to this topic?
If you are pointing out that those research are done in a lab, in a tightly controlled environment then yeah but they are not dealing with growing plants. Their research is in bio-chemical, in that case, yes you can use your calibrated and precision equipment and pure samples in a tightly controlled environment.
Can you apply the same methodology in growing plants? Absolutely not.
What you are asking of me is impossible. Show me 2 plants..any plants...that is the exact mirror image(same height, same number of branches, same number of leaves, etc) of each other....if you really want to be precise. I've already given you the honest answer how to validate an experiment in Agriculture but in your mind your stuck with that lab image.
I will repeat it again, in case you didnt read that right.
The way to validate a research in Agriculture
1. multiple small samples or
2. field test or commonly known as plot testing
The data(s) are then analyzed through statistical analysis +- the standard deviation. If the final result is within tolerance(including your biases) then the result is deemed inconclusive however if there is a significant deviation from the mean then the final result is deemed conclusive.
This is how you test your agricultural research.
Are you sure of that? Show me a defoliation that has been done 2-3 weeks before harvest. Here you are demanding me to be precise but yet you are making blanket statement in regards to defoliation.
Your view of defoliation is akin to going to a specific location just because the road is blocked doesnt mean its the end of the road. What if there are alternate routes going to that location, wouldn't you explore those alternatives?
I dont consider myself as pro-defoliation or anti-defoliation but I'm open-minded to consider any possibilities.
What I dont get about some of you that are very vocal against defoliation all you can offer are the following....
1. You read stuff on a Botany books that leaves are very important
2. The bag appeal of defoliated buds is not better than those that weren't defoliated.
3. That you know this person who defoliated his/her plant and you know this other person who didnt and their buds are much better.
And that's scientific?
Those are subjective opinions....opinions....
Books and even actual classes are not infallible they are meant to be guides not as the Holy Bible. Heck even the bible is challenged for its accuracy and this is among the various religious factions. What makes Botany any different?
What is Botany? Botany is a scientific study of plants. The keyword there is 'study'....meaning there is always room for improvement or growth (no pun intended).
Also in actual research if you really want to contradict or disprove the result of a research, the logical response to that is to duplicate the experiment and show a contradictory result. I've been asking you guys to show me your experiment that show defoliation has failed. Nobody can offer anything except for subjective opinions.
Xs121
Well-Known Member
Exactly
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
I was actually replying to Dudleys comment on scientific studies, hence the link. Its not always about you, to be honest I'm not invested in your grow so I'm not terribly interested in what your results are in your 2 to 3 week time frame. I would be more interested if you removed all the foliage earlier in the grow and did a side by with clones- similar to a 3 a light comparison which I think some one on here already did and debunked that claim. But they defoliated 3 or 4 times in the grow form memory.
You will however get denser buds if you have cooler nights in flower and that is something that is guaranteed to add weight.
In regard to your "experiment" then yes I agree it needs to be clones and the same environment, you could even send a couple of samples to a lab for testing (before and after) to see if their is any cannabinoid differences. Clones will usually all finish at close to the same time to. If you search and read just the last few months defoliation threads then you will see tests and experiments scattered throughout them.
I trim and prune but no I don't defoliate. Ive tried it on outdoor plants and they were typically slower and ended up smaller at the end of veg. No I haven't tried it in flower apart from the odd trim and clean up.
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Xs121
Well-Known Member
Dude.... see above.
It's not about me...that's your respond to my post....'if you are going to question the scientific result' . What scientific result are you pertaining to?
And Budley responded instead to your post
And your reply....
I'll be curious as to what science studies on defoliated cannabis you are referring to.
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
Your just trolling again now. This is the what I replied to: "What scientific results? I have not seen any scientific results pertaining to weed. Is there any?"
I'm not going to keep on replying to what is becoming troll like behaviour, perhaps the others were right earlier in the thread. Have a nice end of grow.
Xs121
Well-Known Member
now I'm a troll...
dude...that is your own post...I didnt made that up....read up the thread... you are contradicting your own statement. I even put it in a quote and honestly if you really have any info in that regards I'm interested. It's not only me..obviously Budley saw it too and maybe others would be interested too.
The 9th post above from this post...you made a reply to my post
Lucky Luke
Well-Known Member
Tool, that's the quote I replied to nowhere in that quote is defoliation mentioned. If I didn't get the jist of what Bud was asking then that's fine but it has 0 to do with you. He is a big boy and has the ability to reply to me if he wanted to. Again it was a reply to HIM and not you. Its not all about you. Your trolling and trying for an argument. I'm not interested. Go and get laid or have a wank or something.
Now, have a nice grow means I'm out of your troll post. Have a nice grow.
Xs121
Well-Known Member
Here, Ill make it easy for you
You quoted part of my post
You quoted part of my post
and this is what you said
So, I'm asking you....what scientific results are you pertaining to?
Xs121
Well-Known Member
wth
So you deny this?
If you are so sure why wont you share with us that science studies you are referring to?