Is this the Beginning of Iron Deficiency?
- Thread starter BadlyDrawnBoy
- Start date
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
Give us info, iron might be fine and might be way too much N. We are shooting in the dArk
BadlyDrawnBoy
Active Member
Plant is about 17 days. DWC, feeding advanced n. ph perfect. (seedling strength currently). 300w led, 18 inches above plant. Temps around 75 on plant, 73 in dwc. Using hydroguard.
Ph is high, but I'm taking advice from others and info i've read online to not mess with the ph when using ph perfect. So seeing how that goes. But want to catch anything before it gets bad. I can adjust ph, not a big deal to take it down to 5.2 and let it rise back up to 6.5, but i've read and heard that messing with ph when using ph perfect will destabilize the mix. Though...I've also read that using tap(well) water will also destabilize the mix, which I'm using, so it may not mater anyway if i adjust the ph. But anyway, I was trying to not adjust ph and let the ph perfect chelation do it's thing.
I thought possibly it was an iron deficiency starting, since that is likely when the ph is high. Hard to tell though, it's obviously very early onset, if any.
What do you see?
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
Well I'm still a new grower so I'd be slow to listen to my self lol. But even your new growth is exceptionally dark green. Which makes me think you may be making one of the most widely made mistakes and feeding too much N, you are pretty dark. I'd have to refer to my site but going from memory iron deficiency effects new growth and your newest leafs don't look effected.
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
So your DWC are you getting ph swings? What's your roots look like?
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
pH perfect? Screw that!
Hydro pH should be kept in the 5.5 to 6.2 range......It should rise by normal activity in the buckets.
I found that adjusting to 5.7 and allowing it to rise to no more then 6.2.....Gave me the best results for my environment/nutrient line used.
Ph of 6.5 in DWC is too high and your loosing N uptake - it shows in your pics...
Hydro pH should be kept in the 5.5 to 6.2 range......It should rise by normal activity in the buckets.
I found that adjusting to 5.7 and allowing it to rise to no more then 6.2.....Gave me the best results for my environment/nutrient line used.
Ph of 6.5 in DWC is too high and your loosing N uptake - it shows in your pics...
BadlyDrawnBoy
Active Member
Yeah, I understand. The ph perfect line is confusing, there is a lot of different ideas and opinions about it. I've been back and forth with others who say never touch the ph, it destabilizes the mix, and others who insist you must still adjust ph. Obviously though, it's not quite working the way it is, so I guess I'll adjust the ph and see how that works. I'm going to take it to 5.2 and let it rise to 6.5. I'll be able to add less if I let the swing go lower and higher.
I'm only going to be adding maybe 2.5 gallons to the 5 gallon buckets, as the roots are well established and nearly touching the bottom of the bucket. Hopefully I can stabilize the ph enough with that small amount of water...the ph perfect seems to artificially raise the ph rather quickly.
Another thing people were saying was that you never truly get an accurate reading when using ph perfect, another reason not to touch it. But it's obviously not working quite right. I mean...it's less than 3 weeks and the plant is already showing signs of deficiency.
Yeah heavy ph swings. When i was trying to adjust them before, it would rise very quickly. Roots look great
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
I agree with almost everything here, however with how dark his leaves are I'm not certain it's a N problem.
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
You need to use a ppm meter with a ph meter. You need to see if your ph swing is based on nutrient levels or another factor. For 20$ I got a digital ph meter and ppm meter. It has done wonders for my grow. 5.2 is pretty low, have you seen the charts for what ph different nutrients can be best absorbed?
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
Also don't be afraid to fill the buckets if you are maintaining there temp and pumping lots of oxygen. In DWC or RDWC I treat water just as if it was soil.
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
Check out this pic, he isn't effecting N uptake at 6.5
Attachments
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
However according to that chart he is going to have a rough time absorbing iron at 6.5
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
I agree with dr who swing mentality, my ideal is adjust to 5.8 let it swing to 6.2
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
Reason why I say you need ppm is a ph swing up can be it simply using all the nutrient or some type of root problem.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Yup, my mistake. N restriction by low pH.
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
Here's my ultimate shot in the dark, it's most likely ph problems, she's small and won't need much nutrient. If your not checking and maintaining ph it's most likely revolving around that.
JohnDoeTho
Well-Known Member
I make tons of mistakes I'm a noob! Glad we can work on the problem and not attack each other
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Up swing in hydro is normal.
Down swing indicates root problems.....i.e. root rot.....
Hydro has no CEC = Easy to fluctuate in pH value.
I don't have the ime to type all this info - so here's wiki's explanation.
- Unlike soil, hydroponic nutrient solutions do not have cation-exchange capacity (CEC) from clay particles or organic matter. The absence of CEC means the pH and nutrient concentrations can change much more rapidly in hydroponic setups than is possible in soil.
- Selective absorption of nutrients by plants often imbalances the amount of counterions in solution. This imbalance can rapidly affect solution pH and the ability of plants to absorb nutrients of similar ionic charge (see article membrane potential). For instance, nitrate anions are often consumed rapidly by plants to form proteins, leaving an excess of cations in solution. This cation imbalance can lead to deficiency symptoms in other cation based nutrients (e.g. Mg2+) even when an ideal quantity of those nutrients are dissolved in the solution.
Now look again at his pics...... He's got low N - lightening from the top down...
Use RO? Add a buffer = Ca/Mg - 5ml per gallon.
Be sure your feeding the proper amount.....
Use a kelp extract to be sure your getting enough micro nutrients....
Regularly adjust the pH to between the set points.
Set the pH to 5.7 at lights on, and the next day at lights on - where is it? over 6.0 - adjust back down to 5.7
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
No prob. your good!I make tons of mistakes I'm a noob! Glad we can work on the problem and not attack each other
I've done this for decades...
It really doesn't show an early developing pH problem - unless it was low. He states 6.5 is his value....
NO DON'T! if you lower it to 5.2 you will start to have pH problems - real ones! It'll start a cascade of lockouts and fry the plant...
WHAT IS your water source???
Do you use a Ca/Mg?
Swings are normal......your lacking a buffer and it's moving to fast due to lack of CEC....
Do not use distilled water!
If you use filtered water = especially RO - add a Ca/Mg....
BadlyDrawnBoy
Active Member
Well...I've been using well water, and the ph is above 8. I haven't adjusted the ph at all, and the ph perfect hasn't taken it below 8. So the ph,, according to my meter, has been above 8 this whole time.
But...another guy on here has said he is growing successful with ph perfect and his ph, last he checked it, was 8 also. I was under the understanding that the way the adv. nutrients ph perfect is chelated, that the nutes can be utilized regardless of ph (within reason), and the max ph the other guy suggested was around 8 where ph perfect would still work.
I just changed the reservoir and added more nutes. I'm going to adjust the ph to mid 5's. I'll see how bad it swings up. Problem is the ph perfect seems to raise the ph really fast, due to how it's comprised.
I know you're supposed to use ro water with ph perfect, but it's not an option at the moment. Since I'm filling on 2 gallons though in res, I could buy water from the store. What would be the best water choice closest to ro?
I don't know, the plant looks good I think, just showing some early signs of...something.
But...another guy on here has said he is growing successful with ph perfect and his ph, last he checked it, was 8 also. I was under the understanding that the way the adv. nutrients ph perfect is chelated, that the nutes can be utilized regardless of ph (within reason), and the max ph the other guy suggested was around 8 where ph perfect would still work.
I just changed the reservoir and added more nutes. I'm going to adjust the ph to mid 5's. I'll see how bad it swings up. Problem is the ph perfect seems to raise the ph really fast, due to how it's comprised.
I know you're supposed to use ro water with ph perfect, but it's not an option at the moment. Since I'm filling on 2 gallons though in res, I could buy water from the store. What would be the best water choice closest to ro?
I don't know, the plant looks good I think, just showing some early signs of...something.