LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow

hyroot said:

I called shenanigans and corrected you in a reply to that post. you can go to each manufacture site to see the spd's and you will see how different they truly are. How they appear to.your own eyes are irrelevant. We dont see the whole spectrum that the lights put out qnd plants absorb. Humans only see in the yellow and green area of the par spectrum. So quit saying how they look. That means nothing

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I'm still waiting on the email from you. I've also taken the time to show you what I'm talking about since you don't seem to care to show me how I'm wrong. Because quite simply, you are wrong my friend. Here are the SPD "graphs" from each manufacturer and the lamps I compared to each other. These are the graphs, I'm not telling you how they look, they are here right in front of you for you and everyone else to see.

Giesemann Actinic +
ATI Blue Plus
UVL 454


Now for the pinks,
Zoomed Flora Sun
Sylvania Gro-Lux
ATI procolor

The reason I said the Giesemann Actinic Plus "appears darker blue than the ATI Blue Plus" is because it actually does in my fixture. I have had them side by side and this is the way it is. Where are you going with this and where is that email?

Well the actinic peaks at 460. The blue plus peaks at 420, the 454 peaks at 430. All different. Oh. I have the blue plus special. The grolux has a 30% higher 660 peak than the flora suns. Thats alot. The gro lux as a wider blue spike, thus more photons. Again Different. The pro color only has 25% 660 peak. All those bulbs are different.

I sent the email

hyroot said:

Well the actinic peaks at 460. The blue plus peaks at 420, the 454 peaks at 430. All different. Oh. I have the blue plus special. The grolux has a 30% higher 660 peak than the flora suns. Thats alot. The gro lux as a wider blue spike, thus more photons. Again Different. The pro color only has 25% 660 peak. All those bulbs are different.

I sent the email

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The graph wasn't attached to the email.

I just said they are "pretty much the same" and are actually quite similar. Also, you can't compare intensity/Y-axis between graphs and especially manufacturers because the intensity is going to be much different depending on how close the light source is to the fiber optic sensor. The intensity is only relevant within a single SPD.

also, directly from ATI's website,
ATI Blue Plus - Basisröhre

Die Blue Plus erzeugt ein intensives Blaulicht (max. bei 450 nm) bei maximaler PAR Leistung. Die fluoreszierenden Pigmente in den Korallen treten noch deutlicher hervor, und der optische Gesamteindruck wird wesentlich verbessert. Je nach Korallenbesatz empfehlen wir eine Beimischung im Verhältnis von 1:1 bis 1:2.

The Ati actually peaks at 450nm. The difference between 450nm and 460nm is nil. Either way, the point I was trying to convey in my original post was that you can't go wrong with any of the lights, so why not go for the cheaper of them all.

This is actually the SPD that is on the Giesemann Actinic Plus packaging that I have,

It looks like it has quite a bit more 420nm than 460nm so now it does make sense that it would appear darker. Not sure what that other Actinic Plus graph is from, weird.

i like that guisseman. check out the ati blue special. that's what i have. in my veg i have those and my fiji's. in flower i use the coral waves and flora suns for the blue. the coral wave peaks at 420 but has a very very wide peak from 380 to 480. lots of photons. blue has more photons than the rest. that improves co2 respiration on leaf surface and terpen production. in turn more oils and trichomes

the new uvl 660 measures intensity w/m2 like the wave points. so its intensity is actually lower than it appears on the graph i still have trouble converting 4E-0 w/m2 to a percentage

holy shit batman,,,,, I have 25 gallon pot of old soil ive been composting and cooking for my avocado tree im going to transplant into it, As I was turning it I found two full grown japanese beetles. i picked one up thinking it was heinekin bottle cap and saw its legs wigglin, it tripped me out.

hyroot said:

i like that guisseman. check out the ati blue special. that's what i have. in my veg i have those and my fiji's. in flower i use the coral waves and flora suns for the blue. the coral wave peaks at 420 but has a very very wide peak from 380 to 480. lots of photons. blue has more photons than the rest. that improves co2 respiration on leaf surface and terpen production. in turn more oils and trichomes

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I'm using the blue specials in my fixture right now for veg as well. 2 UVL 660nm and 2 ATI blue special. The blue special is a 50/50 blue/white so it doesn't overcome the red in my fixture. I am aware that the deeper blue does help terpene production as well as UV does. That's why I add some towards the final weeks of flower. When I tried the actinic plus and uvl 660 together I was getting weird growth that I blame on the excessive deep blue. I replaced them with the blue special and no more funky twisted wavy growth. I plan on switching the blue specials out with the currentusa 460 when they come to see if anything changes and to see if the weird growth was due to the excessive 420nm or 460nm. My nutes and medium are always the same as well as temp/humidity so I've already ruled that out.

BTW the graph that I posted and the one you emailed me is the same.

I've also recently been made aware that the Fiji Purple and ATI Purple Plus are the same. That's why the manufacturer doesn't post the SPD of the Fiji Purple. It's basically the same as the blue plus with the added red/orange. I believe Giesemann has their version of this as well.

Just in case anyone wants to call b.s. on me, LOL
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t300755.html

thomas pohl of korrallen zucht said that the fiji has much more red than the purple plus. a bunch of us contacted korralen zucht and posted the replies in this thread a few hundred pages back.

on nano reef and reef geek. thats just opinion and hear say. i posted quotes from thomas on reef geek. no one really knows for sure.

both companies are owned by sylvania ..................

^^^^^^see attached photo. They are pretty much the same. It's not possible that the Fiji has "much more red" in it because #1 you would see it. Plain and simple. #2 Let's say it did have this extra red that is somehow invisible to the eye, which last time I checked the visible spectrum is 400-700nm for the average people, the lamp would be making colors "pop", the Fiji's don't really do this, but I still use them in my veg fixture for added blue, combined with florasuns.

The reason the aquaristik people put the added red into aquariums is to make the colors "pop." As you may have noticed when you installed red lamps into your fixtures for the first time your skin seemed to have an orange glow and all the red colored sharpee caps in your room take a flourescent glow to them as well. There is no way the Fiji Purple lamp has any more red in it than the ATI lamp, and I am willing to bet $1,000,000 on it. Why deny it? Now that UVL has the 660nm lamps out it doesn't really matter anyway.

And do not throw away your florasuns. They have equal parts red and blue however and you yourself said blue light has more photonic energy than red light does. Therefore in order to balance out the color and give your growth a boost, a few 660nm would make a huge difference. Why not give it a try? I believe the correct proportions to red and blue for budding is somewhere around 8 to 1. If this theory is correct an 8-lamp fixture with 4 x florasun and 4 x uvl 660nm could make for great flowering potential. Just trying to throw some ideas out there.

blue does have more photons but the majority of what chlorophyll absorbs is in the 660 to 700 range. then when green is present that helps chlorophyll absorb more photons. I stick to a r/b 70%/30% for flower and opposite for veg. try and experiment and see what happens. this whole thread has been about experimenting with spectrum

happy yard work

you guys are getting to deep with this color shit, and i believe this is where a lot of makers of LED fail, you cant just say one side of the spectrum is absorbed more than another since the measurement of the to is completely different if one has more photons than the other at the same strength that is the way it is meant to be, equal parts blue to red, this strain for red thru the blue light probably has a lot to do with the amount of red it can absorb and what it can do with it. just a little more simplistic view on it. im with fonz on this one 4 flora suns or 2 flora suns and 2 actinics of some sort with 4 uvl 660 would be the perfect spectrum for flowering

Poly, hate to break it to you but its scientific fact. Read some horticulture books. I can say that because it is what it is..... All books say it too. Its a balancing act sort of speak.

I swear this has been covered over 150 times in this thread. No wonder so many have left. I think me n Pet are the only og par t5ers left here.

Im def getting sick of the repetition.

The only thing left anyone should be saying is "these are my lights and these are my plants and these are my nutes."

Everything that can be covered has been covered. All the info is there numerous times. Just read the dam thread!!!!!

I agree with Fonz on this: And do not throw away your florasuns. They have equal parts red and blue however and you yourself said blue light has more photonic energy than red light does. Therefore in order to balance out the color and give your growth a boost, a few 660nm would make a huge difference. Why not give it a try? I believe the correct proportions to red and blue for budding is somewhere around 8 to 1. If this theory is correct an 8-lamp fixture with 4 x florasun and 4 x uvl 660nm could make for great flowering potential. Just trying to throw some ideas out there.Fonz

The Florosuns provide a very nice full spectral balance, not just R/B. I use 2/8, but have no problem experimenting with 4/8. They actually cover a nice amount of 660, so I doubt 4/8 660s ($$$) is going to be much better than 1-2/8, but hey, I am curious to watch how that performs. Can't hurt

polyarcturus said:

you guys are getting to deep with this color shit, and i believe this is where a lot of makers of LED fail, you cant just say one side of the spectrum is absorbed more than another since the measurement of the to is completely different if one has more photons than the other at the same strength that is the way it is meant to be, equal parts blue to red, this strain for red thru the blue light probably has a lot to do with the amount of red it can absorb and what it can do with it. just a little more simplistic view on it. im with fonz on this one 4 flora suns or 2 flora suns and 2 actinics of some sort with 4 uvl 660 would be the perfect spectrum for flowering

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I agree with this to a point. The SPD charts and graphs get in the way quite a bit. You really can't take these graphs and put one over the other and expect THAT to be your light output. The graphs are only meant to do one thing and that is to give the customer an idea of the ratio of RGB the light puts out.

I still say the only way you can get an idea of how the color is going to be is to put the damn lights in your fixture and see how it performs. I am sure someone here is going to find new and better ways as new lights are developed and new people come to the thread. It's the natural course of progress. Just buys some lamps that make you feel happy, stick them in your fixture, put some plants under the light and see what happens. Then report back here. When someone hits at least the 1g/w threshold, let me know.

hyroot said:

I think me n Pet are the only og par t5ers left here.

Im def getting sick of the repetition.

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It's this type of attitude that will stop progress in it's tracks. Why leave zero room for improvement? Are you telling me that the "original OG" will never be improved on by someone else? I'm willing to bet that this thread has come a long way since page 1 so I don't see how someone reading 400 pages of repetition is going to do anything. If you are as proud as you say you are, why not share with new people? You never know when someone new will come along that will put your info to use and totally blow this shit to Neptune.

I posted a page back asking for 6 bulb advice and have no idea why lol I've got 8, might have been under the influence. Anyways considering the cost, I'm going to run 8 standard bulbs for veg (4 spectralux 6500k and 4 maxlume 5400k) then focus on flowering with aquarium light supplementation. This is what I want to run

2800k Maxlume
flora sun
uvl 660
2800k Maxlume
2800k Maxlume
uvl 660
flora sun
2800k Maxlume

Thing that sucks is I have to wait for uvl to release 2 footers

I was referring to th repetition of how light works and how plants absorb light. No more needs to be said on the subject. Personally posted the same thing to poly several times since he came in here. There has not been any new scientific break throughs in how light works.

So all that should be talked about is results from various bulb combos and what strains and bulbs differ, positive or negative results.

When I said og. I did not mean strain. I meant orignal gangsta.... People that were here from the beginning.