Medi takes the Under Current RDWC system for a test drive, 6' x 8' Screen of Green.

woodsmaneh! · Jan 22, 2011

Using an emzine product (hydrozyme) will greatly reduce the chances of Pythium in any system and keeping it clean is a big key to preventing it. Another important point is the nutrient temperature in the UC is 68 to 70, I will be using a 1/2 hp chiller.

MediMary · Jan 22, 2011

Man I stay away from the zymes myself as I have found if you have any spores in your tank, it will cause the algae to blow up, I think hesinberg might be able to chime in a little better than me though.

I think root rot is pretty simple fix, compared to the slime, and yea there are several products that are good for it, roots excel, sm90, down under hf, h202.
Seems a lot of people end up burning their roots, which causes them to turn brown, and they assume they root rot.

Root rot generally cause your ph will drop like a mofo, and the slime makes the ph go up, so thats something to look for, but generally the ph will naturally float up a bit and that is pretty normal in my experience.

The slime is what takes grows out, from what I have seen in the past.

I think GH would be fine in the UC, use whatever you feel most comfortable with would be my recomendation, Dan recommends canna, but is using pure blend pro in his own system.

Man I picked dans brain the other day, he took time to answer all my questions which I thought was pretty f*%$ing cool.
some of them were pretty basic, but just wanted to make sure.

This is the only company you can get expert advise at the click or a mouse or a phone call, at least currently, everyone needs to take Dans model of customer service into consideration.
I asked Dan about the blue containers, They get those here In the USA as well, they obviously could buy them cheaper in china and it would end up costing us less in the end, but I personally admire that deeply!

*EDIT* I have updated the Q&A! Also Added some tips when using Beneficial microbes.

When using canna aqua vega/flores any mixing tips?

Simple to use, just follow they're recommendations.....no tricks needed which is why it works so well.
( i have read a lot of folks saying mix it and let set for 24 hours.)

What do you personally run in your undercurrent system? Sterile reservoir or beneficial bacteria/fungi?

Right now Pure Blend Pro (switch from the Flakes), but honestly over the past 8 years I've literally run it all. I like using bennies but I use them in what only be considered homeopathic dosages....a little inoc goes a long way in water culture. It's really a lot harder to keep bennies in check and not have them over run your system when dosed in higher concentrations.

Any products you can recommend and ratios? both sterile and benies

Honestly a lot of what you've already read on the forums is trickle down info from us.....this said, I'll spare you the redundant blah, blah and just say, whatever you choose to do keep it as simple as can be. And I would steer clear of a sterile regime and opt more for a clean mineral based nute with probiotic inocs.

As you may have read UCMENOW state.....fungi in the root crow and bacteria in the solution beneath (he got that from me LOL)

Any tea making tips for the UC?

Earth worn teas work best as they are typically very clean and given the physiology of earth worms generally lack any pathogens. Not sure if you know this but we've been brewing teas for more than 10 years, CC even has it's own tea brewers and tea kits that we've back burnered to focus on the UC.

I'd recommend getting to know the www.soilfoodweb.com/ folks in Oregon.....Dr. Elaine Ingahm is the epicenter for cutting edge tea info.

In your faqs its says"
Teas in hydro water culture systems can build up harmful bio films resulting in potential pathogen outbreaks. (If teas & inoculants are used we recommend more frequent nutrient change outs.)"

Can you better explain the bio films that occurs, and I hear the silica can cause the same?

I learned about biofilms while immersed in tea brewer design and operation. These films bcan be formed by a wide variety of inputs ranging from dead microbes to clays and silicates. This layer causes the formation of an anerobic zone, which creates potential habitat for anerobic bacteria which can often be disease causing.

Whats the best way to combat a bio film?

Aviod things that cause it.....once it's there you need to disinfect and scrub to remove. Don't let me freak you out though, as long as your system is kept sanitary (not sterile) you'll encounter no problems even with these biofilms present.

And how often should the nutrients be changed out when running bennies, compared to running sterile?

If dosed properly (in micro amounts) it's not necessary to change res anymore often than with no bennies. Much of this will be dictated by how pH levels react to the changing microbial populations.

When bennies are introduced do they continue to multiply without food?

Plants roots exude root exudate which can help feed bacterial populations as will some of the plant food inputs.

Why do people feed molasses when brewing a fresh tea, I was under the assumption it was to feed the bennies, so without a food source wouldn't bennies introduced die after a few days?

Molasses is to feed microbes during the brew process...though it primarily encourages bacterial growth. Tea brewing processes go through a peak and stabilization phase that generally takes between 24-36 hours. During this process pH ranges fluctuate a lot......this is something that's not well suited for plant growing in solutions such as water culture which is why continual feeding of microbes is not advised.

From my understanding, your stance on PH is if it falls between 5.5 to 6.5 not to touch it. In the event that the ph in the system needs to be adjusted and has fallen out of the 5.5 to 6.5 range, do you have any tips for adjusting the ph of the solution directly in the system, or the top of resevoir when using acids and bases?

Correct, but when using a top off res you can manipulate your pH levels w/o needing to do this physically in the system. If pH rises than make a top off which is more acid than your target pH in the system to offset the rise in the system. If adjusting the pH in the Epi be sure to predilute the pH concentrate at a rate of about 25mls/gal.....the more dilute the better so as to avoid any root shoch and also to better homogenize into the solution in the system.

If a large pH adjustment ( 1.0 or greater is needed it's best to drain the solution from the system into a rez and make adjustments in there.....once balanced reintroduce this corrected nutrient solution back to the root zone

(hypothetical situation)
Lets say a biofilm is forming/or a problem with the solution has arose and you want to drain the system/ replace the solution entirely.

Hook up the drain out adapter and get it drained, rinsed and refilled....keep it simple, consider calling CC to get further instruction on how to avoid what caused the problem in the first place.

At the moment the ph of the solution in the UC has crept up to 6.5, but the solution in your top of reservoir is 5.4, now what? Should we adjust the top of reservoir up to 6.5 as to not shock roots?
How big of swing in ph and how quickly does it have to occur for root damage to happen?

No as this top off solution will trickle into the system slowly....refer to previous explanation regarding top off and pH.
It's typically contact with a pH adjusting concentrate that causes the issue, not imbalanced pH. Contact with the caustic acid or base directly with root tissue is the problem.....many growers get heavy handed with the adjuster dumped straight into the epi and things go south from there.

Most hydro methods people tend to feel like if they don't things can't thrive.....we've found that once your solution reaches equalibrium it is at it's most available to the plant and changing it at this point is wasteful and counter productive.

This is what I have been doing in my own recirculating systems in the past, maybe you can give me some advice. If I wanted to do a complete nutrient change out and the water in the system is 6.5 at the moment, and my top of res was at 5.5. I would drain the system completely, then adjust the top of res from 5.5 to 6.2 then fill the system back up using my top off res.
I would set the ph of the top of res to 5.5 then let it gradually bring the ph back down of the system

Would it be ok to just send the 5.5ph water from the top of res right into the system?

Yes if 5.5 is your ideal pH.....if not adjust it to the target pH before introducing back into the system. Most nutes perform best between 5.8-6.3.

If a nutrient soultion has wild swings in ph, do nutrients become locked out?

For about 12 hours is the general concensus on that.

and once the ph settles at between 5.5 and 6.5 do nutrients become available once again(if they are locked out by ph swings in the first place)?

Fairly soon after, yes. Depends on the severity of the swings.

Do you think its possibly to root crown inoculate the hydroclay/lava rock, while running a sterile water system?

Yes, as this "sterility would not be in contact with the root crown......though I wouldn't recommend that sterility in the first place.

In the event the root zone becomes contaminated with a pathogenic outbreak, what is your opinion on the best way to treat the situation,
1st if you are using bennies,

Drain the system, raise light to half intensity, run water with 1/2 strength Zone/H2O2 for 1-2 days while plants are in the system, drain and refill with 1/2 strength nutes and reinoculate.....call CC for further instruction.

2nd if you are keeping a sterile reservoir.

Same as above minus re-inoculation. Remember it's always best to react before problems arise as this doesn't typically happen over night. If there is a problem that arises over night it's typically chemical burn and is a whole different issue all together.

Side Note....there is a product called "mycostop" http://www.groworganic.com/mycostop-...gram-pack.html which is excellent to introduce when root health goes south.....here's a link, more ion this later.

Dan also said this as well,

One of the inherent weaknesses in a "sterile" set up is the absence on life. It is this absence that can subject the plant roots to invasion by what equates to be the most resiliant and biocide resistant strains of pathogens.

A clean, mineral based nutrient run with homeopathic dosages of select beneficials is the most likely way to avoid DWC sudden death syndrome.

Sterility leaves a vacancy for disease organisms to fill....intro of bennies promotes the colonization of a plant symbiotic microbe which will out compete the pathogens....or at very least compete with them for territory in the root zone.

Bottom line.

***Root crown inoc with products like Great White and ZHO (Botanicare) which have myco properties which need constant root contact

***Aqueous inoc with bacillus Subtillus like Companion, Aquashield which can colonize in solution.

The rule of thumb in the UC with bennies is less is more, inoc without adding excessive biosolids. Its these biosolids that creat biofilms which cause anerobic layers which can lead to pathogen habitat.

Most relavent thing to consider.

Biocides will ultimately mutate the current pathogens that do exist into super strains of fusarium, phytophera, pythium, verticillium....whatever they might be. Very much like what has happened in hospitals with Staphylococcus infections becoming increasingly drug resistent.

Natural competition from indiginous beneficial microbes will keep these root diseases in check, keeping them from specializing into specimens that are evolved to resist antibiotic suppression.

woodsmaneh! · Jan 22, 2011

WOW great post, I'm so excited......
Did he mention a temp for the res? I also noticed for the system I ordered they recommend a 1/2 hp chiller, most chillers 1/2 hp require higher pump capacity than is shipped with the system. Any thoughts?

MediMary · Jan 22, 2011

Didnt ask him on the resevoir temps, generally 67 is what I hear is optimal.

I have a chiller on hand but I wont be using c02 this run so Ill keep my room at 7o. think my water will be fine, but will fire up the chiller if needed,

If you are running co2 chiller is a must, if not you can generally get away without using one if you can adequatly control your room temps.
The water should be just a little lower than the ambient air temps at least in my experience.

But I don't want anyone to follow my advice to a tee, my advice is read, read, read, then read some more, and do your own experiments, grow grow grow.
There are lots of different way to do things, and it can take awhile to get a different technique mastered.
Many ways to skin a cat and grow a plant!

Im just sharing my experiences, Im far from having everything perfected, just looking to learn more like everyone else.

Here is a post on picking the right sized chiller.

COOLING WITH WATER
Everest: Right, let’s talk about cooling this room with water. Many of our readers will be unfamiliar with using water chillers. Stephen, can you explain the basics of what a water chiller actually is and how it works?

Stephen: Sure thing. Firstly, water absorbs heat. And a water chiller cools water. So the basic idea is to use water to absorb heat from your indoor garden, and then a water chiller to get rid of it – similar to a regular air conditioner but with greater efficiency. A pump drives cool water through a manifold pipe and into a heat-exchanging device called an Icebox. The Icebox can be located on the exit duct of an air-cooled hood and provides increased surface area for the cool water to absorb heat from the hot air that passes over the grow lamps. The warm water then returns to the reservoir where it is re-chilled.

Everest: Why is water chilling more efficient than air conditioning?

Stephen: It’s down to the heat exchange capacity of water compared with air. The thermal conductivity of water is 23 times greater than that of air! A chiller will exchange the heat in a given space much more quickly than an air conditioner, allowing it to run less to get the same results. This is where you save electricity. With an air conditioner, air is passed over the evaporator instead of water. Since the air is less conductive, the evaporator can’t draw out as much heat as it can with water. The chiller evaporator is significantly smaller than an air evaporator because of the increased thermal load of water. In nearly all cases, the evaporator in a chiller will be significantly more efficient than that of an air conditioner, again allowing it to run less to get the same amount of cooling.

Everest: What type of chillers should be used?

Stephen: You need an industrial chiller – not a nutrient or aquarium chiller. Nutrient chillers might be more affordable, but they were not designed for battling against a constant source of heat! Only an industrial chiller is able to cope with constant loads and most can be placed outside if desired. Generally speaking, the larger your chiller, the more efficient it is.

Everest: How do you calculate the correct size of chiller for your room?

Stephen: Good question! Obviously this is really important to get right! First you need to decide whether you are going to use the water chiller simply for offsetting the heat generated by your grow lamps (i.e. keep your room at the same as the ambient temperature) or if you want to actively lower temperatures in your indoor garden further. It’s important to note that both heating and cooling are measured in BTUs (British Thermal Units). The first thing to do is measure how many BTUs are being generated from your equipment. In general, 1000 watt bulbs produce 4000 BTUs and 1000 watt digital ballasts produce around 2500s BTU of heat. (Exact figures vary.) That’s why ballasts should always be housed OUTSIDE of the garden.

Everest: So what sized chiller would this room need?

Stephen: 8 x 1000W lamps generate 32,000 BTUs. Each horse power of the chiller gives us around 12,000 BTUs. This room would need a 3HP chiller to cool the room entirely without A/C. Otherwise, a 3 ton A/C could be used in combination with a smaller (e.g. 2HP) chiller.

Everest: How is the cooling regulated / controlled?

Stephen: Cold water circulates around the system constantly. Regulation of the cooling effect is achieved through the fans that blow over the heat exchanger coils inside the Iceboxes. The fans are plugged into a thermostat controller. As it gets warmer, the fans speed up. As it gets colder, they slow down. The thermostat has a night and day setting.

Everest: Okay, now it’s time for the nitty gritty. I want to ask you about humidity. Surely cooling hot air rapidly through an Icebox creates condensation?

Stephen: A room full of transpiring plants is going to create humidity. Every indoor gardener has to deal with this and it’s easy to overcome with a dehumidier. As for condensation, the dew point changes with room temp and humidity levels. If you cool things down, water drops out of the air. Check out dew point calculators online. Typically, if you keep your humidity at below 50% then you will have no condensation.

Everest: How does the grower know how much the water needs to be chilled? I guess what I’m asking is, does the number of lights correlate to the water temp?

Stephen: Water temp is irrelevant to number of lights. You need to compare your water temperature with your room temperature. Assuming you have the right sized chiller, if the water temp is 10°F less than the room temp then you will maintain the room at that temperature. If you chill your water more than that it will create an A/C effect. 20°F difference will create active cooling in the room. It’s all about heat exchange and surface area, Everest, not just about how cold your water is. If you have three lights daisy-chained to just one Icebox, you can get the same results from three Iceboxes but you have to get your water a whole lot cooler. When you take away heat exchangers, you take away efficiency. But also, you need to take into account the volume of the room.

Everest: So you’re saying that a good rule of thumb is: the more Iceboxes (or heat exchange surface area), the better.

Stephen: You got it. The best efficiency is achieved when your water temperature is above the dew point and as close to your room temperature as possible.

Everest: Ok guys – that’ll do I think. I like the look of this room. Thanks for sharing!

http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2009/12/hydroponics-blueprint-breakdown-the-water-garden/

MediMary · Jan 23, 2011

Thanks to JaliscoKid for sharing his sharing this :lock:

Managing the Root Zone in Soilless Culture
Author: Eyal Ronen Haifa Chemicals Chief Agronomist

In solid growing media, there are five important parameters that should be monitored around the root zone to optimize plant growth and yields. EYAL RONEN offers some guidelines on how to manage these parameters to prevent major crop problems, and explains the importance of measuring fertiliser solution at both the dripper and drainage points.
General terminology
Soilless culture, commonly referred to as hydroponics, is a cultivation technique by which plants are grown detached from the soil. Plants are cultivated in containers filled with several possible growing media. If these media are solid, the method is called soilless culture. If no medium is present and the plant roots are bathed in circulated nutrient solution, the method is called hydroponics. If no medium is present and plant roots get their nutrients by frequent spraying or misting, the method is called aeroponics. The method we are concerned with in this article uses solid growing media.
Figure 1. Different soilless cultivation methods.
Soilless culture characteristics
The limited volume of medium and water availability generally causes rapid changes in the status of water and nutrients. Changes in the medium solution, such as electrical conductivity (EC), pH and nutrients level, should be monitored for the efficient use of water and nutrients. Failures in the careful supervision of fertilisation and/or the accuracy of irrigation are likely to result in severe plant damage and reduced yields. Hydroponics, however, offers several major advantages in the management of both plant nutrition and plant protection, if the right tools are applied and careful management is carried out.
There are five important parameters that should be monitored by the grower, employing simple devices and methods. However, the common perception of some of these parameters is not always correct and this can result in some major problems.
There are two reference points of special importance used to determine the status of the medium. These are the drip-line point (fertigation input) and the drainage point (output), based on the understanding that the drainage point best reflects the condition in the active root zone. By monitoring these two points, it is possible to see what changes are occurring in the medium after fertigation.
Changes in the medium environment
Water functions as a source of some nutrients, and as a delivery vehicle to transport nutrients into the plant via the xylem vascular system. When plants are exposed to low relative humidity, they lose water by transpiration through their stomata. Water also evaporates from the medium. However, transpiration and evaporation can lead to a salt build-up in the medium if proper management practices are ignored. Although some salts are absorbed by the plant, there is a sharp increase in the concentration and a build-up of some undesirable salts.
When growing in soil, root volume and soil space are large enough that salt accumulation does not interfere with plant growth as quickly. But in soilless culture there is no space to buffer this salt
build-up, and immediate action is needed to purge the medium and lower the concentration of these dangerous components by washing them away. To avoid this problem, the common practice is to supply extra water at every irrigation cycle to ensure sufficient drainage - irrigation water should pass through most of the medium volume and leach away high salt concentrations at the drainage point. Theoretically, a 10% increase in water volume during daily irrigation cycles should be sufficient, but practically, an extra 30-50% of water is used.
When plants are supplied with mineral fertilisers, although some are consumed and some are lost by leaching, the medium solution electrical conductivity is increasing compared to the drip-line point. The accumulation is mainly of nitrate and chloride.
It is important to identify the reason for any EC elevation to avoid taking wrong corrective action. For example, chloride is a micronutrient and is required by plants in very small amounts. However, excess chloride will not be absorbed and will easily accumulate in the medium. Because chloride is highly soluble, it will almost always be present in the solution and affect the EC.
Nutrient consumption can be roughly estimated by checking the changes in the nitrate (NO3-) content of the nutrient solution. Compared to the drip-line point, it will go up and down, generally reflecting changes in plant consumption. Another form of nitrogen that can tell us about the status of the growing medium is nitrite (NO2-) concentration. In case of over-irrigation, water accumulation in the medium leads to waterlogging, and to decreased availability of oxygen in the medium. This change uncouples the chemical transformation of ammonium to nitrate causing nitrite to appear and accumulate in the medium. The nitrite anion is toxic to plant roots and will eventually lead to plant death.
Another important parameter is the pH of the solution flowing through the medium, which can affect the availability of microelements and phosphate to plants. One of the advantages of soilless culture is the ability to control pH in the medium solution. This is achieved by adding acid to the irrigation water to change the ratio between NH4+ and NO3- , which are the only two forms of nitrogen allowed in this cultivation method. It is a common phenomenon that while passing through the root system, the pH will drop slightly due to root respiration and lack of buffer capacity in the soilless medium.
It is possible to check these other parameters in the growing medium as well, but this requires relatively sophisticated lab equipment. It should be stressed that EC and pH should be monitored over time, where the trends are more important than the absolute values which are not always accurate. Although the day-to-day measurements of EC and pH are not the most accurate for predicting changes in the crop, relatively inexpensive meters are adequate for quick field evaluations.
Table 1.

Table 1 is a compilation of common management guidelines used in soilless cultivation. Crop management is generally achieved by comparing EC and pH values between the drip-line point and drainage point; but is the latter the optimal point to compare?
In many cases, the values obtained at the drainage point do not reflect the real situation in the active root zone and may mislead the grower about the status of the growing medium. To obtain a more accurate picture, we need to be sure that the irrigation water is passing through all possible pore spaces in the growing medium.
Although irrigation water passes horizontally and vertically through the growing medium, several factors can influence which way it moves. A low density of emitters and a high flow capacity, and a growing medium with large aggregate particles and square packing, will dictate a more vertical movement of the irrigation water. Conversely, a high density of emitters (two lines) and low flow capacity (0.2 l/h), and a medium with small aggregates and triangular shape, will dictate a more horizontal flow of water, thus ensuring a better flush of the medium and a drainage that will be more representative of the status of the growing medium (see Fig. 2).

Figure 2. Water movement through the medium in different conditions.
Generally, the water found in the drainage does not characterise the real situation near the active root zone. Most of the water in the drainage is collected beneath the dripper from a narrow, sausage-like basin; where water movement is faster than in its periphery. Undesirable salts like chloride show in this water at a lower concentration than can be found in the active root zone, which has a much lower hydraulic conductance. While drainage chloride may show an acceptable situation, a careful inspection of the medium around the active root zone (which is difficult to perform), may show an undesirable concentration of salts, expressed by a high EC.
One of the functions of water supplied to soilless culture, other than fulfilling the need of transporting nutrients in plants, is to maintain a low level of salts in the medium and to prevent a possible build-up of salts. Commonsense tells us material cannot disappear from the system. Therefore, although water evaporates from the system, salts do not; hence they will always remain behind. Every anion and cation not consumed by the plant will accumulate in the medium. If the salt is not outside in the drainage it is inside the medium!
Growers should aim to allow for an EC value at the drainage point as high as possible and not just higher by 20% more of the irrigation water at the drip-line point. Also, as high as possible chloride and not only 50 ppm at the drainage, as compared to the irrigation water at the dripper. If the values are only higher by 20% in E.C and 50 ppm in chloride the grower should be worried, since it means the drainage was not effective enough and in this equation the salt is still hiding in the medium. The drainage is ineffective in removing excessive salts with most left in the medium.
Growers should check the status of the growing medium at the active root zone. There are two ways to do this. One can dig into some of the medium, squeeze it by hand over a filter paper, and analyse the solution for the relevant parameters. A better method uses a fixed soil-solution extractor
that can extract the medium solution from any location selected by the grower as being a characteristic point to determine the real environment that the plant roots are surrounded by (see Fig. 3).
Figure 3. Soil solution extrector inside a pot.

Above all, the grower should bear in mind that both methods described for checking the drainage solution and the medium itself are only an approximation. However, because the grower needs some indication of what is going on in the medium, this method of medium evaluation will suffice as long as the EC is not higher than 20% compared to the drip-line EC, and chloride does not exceeds 50ppm over the drip line point, referring to the drainage analysis over there parameters should be higher as possible in comparison to the drip line point.
One must also remember that these guidelines are not crop-specific. A better way is to balance the EC specifically for each crop according to its threshold level, above which plant productivity will decrease (see Table 2). The idea is to always keep the EC below this threshold, and when it does exceed this level to take some corrective action and flush the medium with extra water. Its always better to make frequent small adjustments to the irrigation and fertiliser regime, than to make extreme changes when it is already too late. As a cautionary note, the action of flushing the medium should only be taken when EC levels exceed the threshold and not as a routine, because it will upset the sensitive balance the plants live in.

Some growers might consider this procedure as labour intensive and rather than checking the EC at the drainage point, they wash the medium heavily from time to time instead. Although this may work, it is the wrong management practice. The methods described in this article will ensure plants are grown in the right zone, beneath the threshold of reduced dry-matter production (see Fig. 4 and Fig 5).

Further investigation of EC
When checking EC of the medium, it is also important to breakdown this general term into its major components. Checking the EC itself will reflect that the concentration of electrolytes is high. At the working range in soilless cultivation, it is important to know whether this EC is due to nitrate nitrogen or chloride. If the majority is from nitrate, it means that the grower has over-fertilised and fertiliser concentration should be lowered. If the majority is from chloride, it means that the grower is not irrigating with a proper volume of water; water consumption is exceeding supply and since chloride only comes from water, it is accumulating very fast. In this case, the appropriate action is to increase the irrigation volume. In both cases, the high EC can be diminished by extra washing, if needed.
To sum up, one needs to understand that soilless cultivation is a flexible growing method that lets the grower have full control over the growing environment, including the active root zone. However, plants and yields will suffer if the grower doesnt have a good understanding of EC and the specific limitations of the crop, the growing medium, and irrigation water.
About the author
Eyal Ronen is the Chief Agronomist in charge of market and product development worldwide for Haifa Chemicals. His role includes field research, attending seminars and providing technical support to Haifa agronomists and companies in the distribution channel throughout the world.

woodsmaneh! · Jan 23, 2011

your mail box is full MM no PM's till you make some room.

Yup I ordered it on Wed. last week. They sent me an invoice but no shipping info. I have high hopes for the system, right now I grow 20 plants in dirt and get close to 2 pounds per 1000w so my hopes are at least 1 pound per plant. I really expect more but if I set my sights low, who knows. I can grow 50 plants max so if this works I will be very pleaded. How are you going to clone for the UC system? I thinking turbokloner?

You set up yet?

MediMary · Jan 24, 2011

Fixed email.

Im getting back this afternoon. I have a power cloner(botanicare), I put cuttings in on sunday of last week, so hopefully I have roots when I get home = ).

In all honesty im sick of aero cloners, they work nice but the cleaning takes forever at least how I clean it.

Probably going to go back to rockwool and put the aero cloner on a shelf somewhere, I like the ease of use of RW.

Im going to transplant them into the netpots that come with the uc and just set the net pots on top of individual 5gallon buckets, while I get the system back together, also wanted to install a temporary wall and do a couple other things.
I post some pictures tonight, what kinda spacing did you get your system on?

woodsmaneh! · Jan 24, 2011

Heres the reply I just got back

Your order is shipping today, tracking info will be sent via email.

If the chiller is fairly close to the system the included pump should be fine, if it is more than 5ft. either upsize your return pump or add an additional booster pump.

Q I asked

[FONT=&quot]I also noticed that the system requires a 1/2 hp chiller, min. requirements
for most 1/2 hp chiller pumps is 750gph and higher, the system ships with a
700gph pump? does not meet the min. requirements for recommended? Please
advise[/FONT]

woodsmaneh! · Jan 24, 2011

So I'm not sure what I will grow in it yet, I have 10 different types to choose from. I saw you noticed my thread on FI that I grew a while back. I had thought I killed them all but I was wrong and every grow a few show up and now I like it for day time, wonderful looking and tall, shades of purple and good yield.

Stoner Smurf · Jan 24, 2011

Sub'ed, I am stoked to follow this, as I am in the process of building a DIY RDWC system. +Rep for being the first person rocking the UC on RIU (first RDWC I've seen here I believe, but I am sure someone's got one.).

Sorry I have to go off topic for one moment, but I need to respond to this:

researchkitty said:
The DIY was beat to death, and I mean to super dead horse death on thcfarmer.com and it was determined that the cost of buying one at a real online price (vs msrp) was pretty much the same as all the bullshit of the part ordering, and then you still have to put it together from scratch. They sourced everything out, the same buckets, same pumps, etc......... You can find the UC systems most times for about 15-20% off retail...........

This is not true at all. The part about THCFarmer.com having an awesome section on UC is true but that's about the only truth in that statement. I just built a 10 spot under current system with the same water pump, and better air pumps and air stones, it cost me $407.73. That price also includes the several rolls of $16 duct insulation that I would of had to buy even if I bought the store bought UC system (For that price it really should come already wrapped in insulation). If you buy all the stuff from http://cch2o.com (that's who makes the UC system for those who don't know), of course it's going to cost the same as just buying the complete system, they charge crazy high prices for parts. If you use the same buckets you have to buy them from cch2o because they are not sold anywhere else. They charge such stupid amounts for those cheap buckets, they're like $35 each then another $20 for a lid. $50 for an 8 gallon bucket, uh no thank you. Those Mag Drive water pumps can be bought for $35(Mag500) to $80(Mag2400) cheaper at aquarium stores like this: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com The Under Current Systems do work beautifully, but I always tell people to build their own if they can they will save thousands. Building your own will result in a better quality product if done correctly as well.

My system I am using is a little bit different but same general idea. I used the 27-Gallon Tough Boxes from Home Depot. Each tote is home for 2 plants. There are 5 totes in a line, the last tote has a 1/2 hose coming out the bottom via uniseal. The hose connects to the return pump, which then goes to the epicenter. Honestly I dont know why I am explaining this, its pretty much just like yours except my buckets are totes and hold two plants. Everything else is near identicial even the float value shut off.

For my top off reservoir Im using a 44-Gal Brute trash can. What do you use? I couldnt really find anything better than that, and I am not happy with the Brute. I have a 70 gallon reservoir but its quite large and rectangle, not something good to leave out takes up too much space. What size is your top off reservoir? These plants are supposed to drink like crazy, so Im afraid I may be thinking too small at 44 gallon container which only holds 38gal tops.

By the way dude, I am really sorry to hear about all the problems you had. That had to be heart breaking getting broken shit in the mail when you just wanna hook it up and roll. Way to keep good spirits when life pisses in your corn flakes, if I could +rep you twice I would. I am sorry to say what I am about to say, but your misfortune makes me really happy that I went the DIY route. It seems like some of the materials of the store bought UC are cheap. The pipe and buckets especially. That's really fucked up they don't use sch 40, I don't get why not. 10ft of sch40 PVC is $20 retail, it's not expensive. How do the buckets look? I've heard they were thin and flimsy but have never seen one in person. You have the buckets in hand, honestly what do you feel is the chance of one of these buckets cracking mid grow? That would be a disaster, and one of my biggest fears come true. 80+ Gallons of water flooding my grow room.

Are you planning on using stock air stones? What kind of air stones come with it out of the box? I remember a thread over on THC Farmer where someone was bitching about the airstones that came with it. Also the one guy I know that has a UC system replaced his air stones before his first grow. I do kind of like those diffusion disks (although I have never seen one work and don't know how well it works) in the epicenter. The epicenter is the only one with the diffusion disk though right? I was planning on getting Micro-Pore Double Air Diffusers but at $30 a piece for the 12 I need it would be a costly investment. I did go with an upgraded stone over normal air stones. Got me some of these Alita 3.75" Sintered Air Stone Discs. Everyone who has used them swears by them, and they won't clog. So I am sold. I was looking at the oxygen shields as well, but for no reason I don't like them. If you're thinking on upgrading your stock air stones I will let you know how these Alita Disks work, I got high hopes.

Oh by the way quit saying you have a tip and that you'll share it later! Just share it right then and there. Jeeze

Ha, you've done that 2-3 times now.

Sorry for writing a book here, I am just excited about this grow and have a lot to say about it (and mine too I guess). I am sorry if I spoke about my own grow too much, I was in no way, shape, or form trying to hijack your thread. It's just that my system and your system are so very very similar. I plan on following this here thread (hopefully you get everything up and running soon!) and learning a lot from you as I learn a lot from doing it first hand. I plan on making a journal once my shit hits flower, I will PM you a link and if you want can follow and learn a lot of shit from me. I strongly believe we all can learn something from everybody. So I plan on learning a lot from you, and if you want you can learn from me. Or you can learn nothing from me that's your prerogative. Either way I am going to get really stoned and I'm going to learn from you so I'm happy.

MediMary · Jan 24, 2011

woodsmaneh! said:

Heres the reply I just got back

Your order is shipping today, tracking info will be sent via email.

If the chiller is fairly close to the system the included pump should be fine, if it is more than 5ft. either upsize your return pump or add an additional booster pump.

Q I asked

[FONT=&quot]I also noticed that the system requires a 1/2 hp chiller, min. requirements
for most 1/2 hp chiller pumps is 750gph and higher, the system ships with a
700gph pump? does not meet the min. requirements for recommended? Please
advise[/FONT]

Click to expand...

woodsmaneh, what would you rank your customer service so far?
Im very impressed myself.

So what are you going to run sterile or beneficials ?

woodsmaneh! · Jan 24, 2011

woodsmaneh, what would you rank your customer service so far?
Im very impressed myself.

First contact was good.

So what are you going to run sterile or beneficials ?

Hummmm I think I will run beneficals (Subculture) as I think I'm going to use Botanicare Pro and their recommended feeding for hydro. I have read some things in the UC forums that people have not had good luck with GH. I have used both in past years and was happy with the results. My new seeds from Sannies are recommended to be grown organic, and I believe the owner of UC is running Botanicare, good enough for him, works for me. What you going to use?

Stoner Smurf · Jan 24, 2011

woodsmaneh! said:
I think you could say that about any system that plants share food. I have been growing for a long time and the only issues I have ever had are bugs and I know how do deal with them. There are a number of products you can run to prevent root issues so not to worried.

I'm thinking of using GH for food?

I've heard people have very lack luster results with GH in these Under Current systems. It seems like the 3 everyone uses in their UC are: Dutch Mater, Canna, or House and Garden. I was thinking about trying Dyna-Grow because of this thread. Homebrewer sold me on DG. Personally I am between DM or DG.

Stoner Smurf · Jan 24, 2011

Hey MM, have you decided what nutes you are going to use? Also I am sorry I called you a man when I rep'ed you, I am an idiot. I guess Mary is probably not a man, so I apologize. In my defense I am really stoned and I am multitasking.

MediMary · Jan 24, 2011

Stoner Smurf said:
Sub'ed, I am stoked to follow this, as I am in the process of building a DIY RDWC system. +Rep for being the first person rocking the UC on RIU (first RDWC I've seen here I believe, but I am sure someone's got one.).

(Thank You)

Sorry I have to go off topic for one moment, but I need to respond to this:

(Why do you feel the need We(kitty & me) just said the DIY was beat to death,so why you trying to revive it in my thread? LOL

This is not true at all. The part about THCFarmer.com having an awesome section on UC is true but that's about the only truth in that statement. I just built a 10 spot under current system with the same water pump, and better air pumps and air stones, it cost me $407.73.

( I can build a car myself doesn't mean I want to spend the time & effort actually doing it. Sure it will be cheaper, but I would rather have sex and smoke pot.

Time is money! Some folks who have the cash would rather just spend the $ and get a system up front with expert grower support and then spend that spare time getting their room ready.

Don't get me wrong I love DIY, but sometimes it can be a pain in the ass too, like me trying to fix the leak myself. I have done more than my share of DIY's over the years, MPBS being my last contraption.

It was a pain in the ass to get everything just right, drill a hole to big it leaks, blah blah blah. Im not knocking D.I.Y just would prefer to keep this thread on the Actual Under Current System.
Plus your not taking into consideration tools! Just one holesaw to cut the 3" is going to be 50$, what if you need a drill, what about for the smaller fittings, etc...

Part of what you are paying for is the Research and Development, I'm not sure who's DIY you followed at the farm SH's?, but several of the people who thought upgrading the air pump was going to be bennefical actually had water that was to turbulent and it damaged their roots.)

That price also includes the several rolls of $16 duct insulation that I would of had to buy even if I bought the store bought UC system (For that price it really should come already wrapped in insulation).

(Insulation would be nice as I said earlier.)

If you buy all the stuff from http://cch2o.com (that's who makes the UC system for those who don't know), of course it's going to cost the same as just buying the complete system, they charge crazy high prices for parts. If you use the same buckets you have to buy them from cch2o because they are not sold anywhere else. They charge such stupid amounts for those cheap buckets, they're like $35 each then another $20 for a lid.

(Those buckets are actually pretty sturdy, UnderCurrent could offer them for almost half the price they are offered now if the sourced them from china, (likely where your totes are from) but they buy american! The lids are 1/4 thick ABS(heavy harvest lids), and our pretty bad ass.)

$50 for an 8 gallon bucket, uh no thank you. Those Mag Drive water pumps can be bought for $35(Mag500) to $80(Mag2400) cheaper at aquarium stores like this: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com The Under Current Systems do work beautifully, but I always tell people to build their own if they can they will save thousands. Building your own will result in a better quality product if done correctly as well.

(Ok now your just making up stuff at your own site you linked too its more than double the price you listed for a mag drive 500.
And the mag drive 9.5( 900 gallons per hour) is over a hundred bucks, so how in the world a mag drive2400(2400 gallons per hour) going to cost 20 bucks less?!?!?blows my mind.

You don't got to lie to kick it lil homie.)

My system I am using is a little bit different but same general idea. I used the 27-Gallon Tough Boxes from Home Depot. Each tote is home for 2 plants. There are 5 totes in a line, the last tote has a 1/2 hose coming out the bottom via uniseal. The hose connects to the return pump, which then goes to the epicenter. Honestly I don’t know why I am explaining this, it’s pretty much just like yours except my buckets are totes and hold two plants. Everything else is near identicial even the float value shut off.

For my top off reservoir I’m using a 44-Gal Brute trash can. What do you use? I couldn’t really find anything better than that, and I am not happy with the Brute. I have a 70 gallon reservoir but it’s quite large and rectangle, not something good to leave out takes up too much space. What size is your top off reservoir? These plants are supposed to drink like crazy, so I’m afraid I may be thinking too small at 44 gallon container which only holds 38gal tops.

(I have a 55 gallon water barrel I will be using.)

By the way dude, I am really sorry to hear about all the problems you had. That had to be heart breaking getting broken shit in the mail when you just wanna hook it up and roll.

Its just a broken part, I dunno about heart broken, I have had DIY fail before when Im ready to rock as well, shit my own fix failed, I could have refixed it and been rocking and rolling if it really was that important, but I had to leave town and rather have my part sitting here when I get back.

Shit happens, then you die so f**$ it all, lets get high. Did you see pictures of my grow room flood over christmas?

Way to keep good spirits when life pisses in your corn flakes, if I could +rep you twice I would. I am sorry to say what I am about to say, but your misfortune makes me really happy that I went the DIY route. It seems like some of the materials of the store bought UC are cheap. The pipe and buckets especially. That's really fucked up they don't use sch 40, I don't get why not. 10ft of sch40 PVC is $20 retail, it's not expensive. How do the buckets look? I've heard they were thin and flimsy but have never seen one in person. You have the buckets in hand, honestly what do you feel is the chance of one of these buckets cracking mid grow? That would be a disaster, and one of my biggest fears come true. 80+ Gallons of water flooding my grow room.

)I honestly think the only whey they would crack is if you did something stupid to fuck it up mid grow, Its possible to crack it when slipping the pvc into the module, or trying to break the thing down, but you will have the same problem with your totes you are using as well.
As for a grow room flood, its not as bad as it sounds
https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/397709-great-grow-room-flood-2010-a.html
I think they use the 125 to save on shipping costs(just a guess though). The schedule 125 is not what cracked, it was the schedule 40 90 degree that cracked.

Im sure you will have the chance to rep me again in the future, LOL, If you are happy with your system that is all that matters, Im happy with the UC(so far).)

Are you planning on using stock air stones? What kind of air stones come with it out of the box? I remember a thread over on THC Farmer where someone was bitching about the airstones that came with it. Also the one guy I know that has a UC system replaced his air stones before his first grow. I do kind of like those diffusion disks (although I have never seen one work and don't know how well it works) in the epicenter. The epicenter is the only one with the diffusion disk though right? I was planning on getting Micro-Pore Double Air Diffusers but at $30 a piece for the 12 I need it would be a costly investment. I did go with an upgraded stone over normal air stones. Got me some of these Alita 3.75" Sintered Air Stone Discs. Everyone who has used them swears by them, and they won't clog. So I am sold. I was looking at the oxygen shields as well, but for no reason I don't like them. If you're thinking on upgrading your stock air stones I will let you know how these Alita Disks work, I got high hopes.

(Yes I will be using the ones out of the box, I actually like those type of air stones, use them one grow and toss them.
I got micropore diffusers sitting on the shelf, you also have to realize the finer bubbles the air stone makes the more back pressure will be on the air pump, so A give and trade you end up with better bubbles but hotter air being pumped in, in my humble opinion, at least. I have a long rant on air pumps and air stones, but I will make another thread about that some other time.)

Oh by the way quit saying you have a tip and that you'll share it later! Just share it right then and there. Jeeze Ha, you've done that 2-3 times now.

(Haha you are right on that, I totally had forgotten too, thanks for reminding me, I updated post 63 in this thread to include the Benefical microbe tip from Dan. And Ill post my thoughts/chris on the Death Without Cause syndrome later(want to find the quote), if I forget just kick me. )

Sorry for writing a book here, I am just excited about this grow and have a lot to say about it (and mine too I guess). I am sorry if I spoke about my own grow too much, I was in no way, shape, or form trying to hijack your thread. It's just that my system and your system are so very very similar. I plan on following this here thread (hopefully you get everything up and running soon!) and learning a lot from you as I learn a lot from doing it first hand. I plan on making a journal once my shit hits flower, I will PM you a link and if you want can follow and learn a lot of shit from me. I strongly believe we all can learn something from everybody. So I plan on learning a lot from you, and if you want you can learn from me. Or you can learn nothing from me that's your prerogative. Either way I am going to get really stoned and I'm going to learn from you so I'm happy.

(ts all gravy my friend, Im glad to have you along, pm me a link to your grow so I can come pull up a seat, why you waiting for you plants to flower??, put some pictures up today *lazy stoner* hehehe )

and you were right the first time MediMary is short medical marijuana not my name I am a dude,
I mentioned what nutrients I am going to use in the first or second post, the description is next to the picture of the nutrients i put up
But its canna since you are wondering.
woods I have heard a couple people say so-so on the GH, mostly people knock the AN due to the Urea content in it( I believe), but there are threads arguing which nutrient is best or which ones suck. I think stick with what you know best.

Stoner Smurf · Jan 24, 2011

Wow now I feel like even more of a douche than I originally did. I am sorry bro. Nothing you said or did sounded feminine which is why I originally thought you was a dude, but the name is kinda misleading. Anywho moving on....

Yeah so you did mention your nutes, right there in the 2nd post. But hey, I was late to the party and after playing catch-up for 8 pages I forgot the first one.

That's just one of many reasons to knock AN. Of every dollar spent on an AN product 49 cents goes to marketing, 50 cents goes into Big Mike's pocket, 0.9 cents goes into research and development (Well they gotta research new and better types of bottles and labels to better grab one's eye), and 0.1 goes into the making of the product (it used to be less, but then their water rates increased. Since 95% of the product is water, it made it much more expensive to produce.).

So MM have you decided on beneficials or sterile? I've only seen it used at a friend's house in a 5-gal DWC bucket, but that DM Zone is some awesome shit. It turned nasty poop roots, snow white. I almost didn't believe it was the same plant.

MediMary · Jan 24, 2011

Its all good, nothing but good wishes going your way! Hoping all your future buds are super frosty!

as for nutrients, fuck I hate dutchmaster after the whole superbud fiasco(cancer causing ingredients) there is no way will I ever buy a Dutch Master Product!
When DD's got those beasts of plants he used AN in his MPB, I say if you know it you can rock it.
after getting my feet wet ill probably go to flora nova bloom though.

I think im going beneficials.

I got home this evening, package was outside, and some freebies from cch20

Updates soon.

researchkitty · Jan 25, 2011

Stoner Smurf said:
This is not true at all. The part about THCFarmer.com having an awesome section on UC is true but that's about the only truth in that statement. I just built a 10 spot under current system with the same water pump, and better air pumps and air stones, it cost me $407.73. That price also includes the several rolls of $16 duct insulation that I would of had to buy even if I bought the store bought UC system (For that price it really should come already wrapped in insulation). If you buy all the stuff from http://cch2o.com (that's who makes the UC system for those who don't know), of course it's going to cost the same as just buying the complete system, they charge crazy high prices for parts. If you use the same buckets you have to buy them from cch2o because they are not sold anywhere else. They charge such stupid amounts for those cheap buckets, they're like $35 each then another $20 for a lid. $50 for an 8 gallon bucket, uh no thank you. Those Mag Drive water pumps can be bought for $35(Mag500) to $80(Mag2400) cheaper at aquarium stores like this: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com The Under Current Systems do work beautifully, but I always tell people to build their own if they can they will save thousands. Building your own will result in a better quality product if done correctly as well.

My system I am using is a little bit different but same general idea. I used the 27-Gallon Tough Boxes from Home Depot. Each tote is home for 2 plants. There are 5 totes in a line, the last tote has a 1/2 hose coming out the bottom via uniseal. The hose connects to the return pump, which then goes to the epicenter. Honestly I don’t know why I am explaining this, it’s pretty much just like yours except my buckets are totes and hold two plants. Everything else is near identicial even the float value shut off.

For my top off reservoir I’m using a 44-Gal Brute trash can. What do you use? I couldn’t really find anything better than that, and I am not happy with the Brute. I have a 70 gallon reservoir but it’s quite large and rectangle, not something good to leave out takes up too much space. What size is your top off reservoir? These plants are supposed to drink like crazy, so I’m afraid I may be thinking too small at 44 gallon container which only holds 38gal tops.

By the way dude, I am really sorry to hear about all the problems you had. That had to be heart breaking getting broken shit in the mail when you just wanna hook it up and roll. Way to keep good spirits when life pisses in your corn flakes, if I could +rep you twice I would. I am sorry to say what I am about to say, but your misfortune makes me really happy that I went the DIY route. It seems like some of the materials of the store bought UC are cheap. The pipe and buckets especially. That's really fucked up they don't use sch 40, I don't get why not. 10ft of sch40 PVC is $20 retail, it's not expensive. How do the buckets look? I've heard they were thin and flimsy but have never seen one in person. You have the buckets in hand, honestly what do you feel is the chance of one of these buckets cracking mid grow? That would be a disaster, and one of my biggest fears come true. 80+ Gallons of water flooding my grow room.

Are you planning on using stock air stones? What kind of air stones come with it out of the box? I remember a thread over on THC Farmer where someone was bitching about the airstones that came with it. Also the one guy I know that has a UC system replaced his air stones before his first grow. I do kind of like those diffusion disks (although I have never seen one work and don't know how well it works) in the epicenter. The epicenter is the only one with the diffusion disk though right? I was planning on getting Micro-Pore Double Air Diffusers but at $30 a piece for the 12 I need it would be a costly investment. I did go with an upgraded stone over normal air stones. Got me some of these Alita 3.75" Sintered Air Stone Discs. Everyone who has used them swears by them, and they won't clog. So I am sold. I was looking at the oxygen shields as well, but for no reason I don't like them. If you're thinking on upgrading your stock air stones I will let you know how these Alita Disks work, I got high hopes.

Oh by the way quit saying you have a tip and that you'll share it later! Just share it right then and there. Jeeze Ha, you've done that 2-3 times now.

Sorry for writing a book here, I am just excited about this grow and have a lot to say about it (and mine too I guess). I am sorry if I spoke about my own grow too much, I was in no way, shape, or form trying to hijack your thread. It's just that my system and your system are so very very similar. I plan on following this here thread (hopefully you get everything up and running soon!) and learning a lot from you as I learn a lot from doing it first hand. I plan on making a journal once my shit hits flower, I will PM you a link and if you want can follow and learn a lot of shit from me. I strongly believe we all can learn something from everybody. So I plan on learning a lot from you, and if you want you can learn from me. Or you can learn nothing from me that's your prerogative. Either way I am going to get really stoned and I'm going to learn from you so I'm happy.

Your making a system with less quality than the Under Current factory system with different parts. Its a DYI project sure, but not the same UC using their styled parts. I applaud that you put together your own system, but saying that its the same thing, well, it just isnt. It's really close, and sure, probably comparable quality, but you have a very small system for a smaller price.

No arguments meant to be started, but post a picture of your system next to the UnderCurrent that you replicated. Then we can tell if you've got a real setup that you've made versus some hack job that you type eloquently about

MediMary · Jan 25, 2011

^^^

Damn kitty, you blow glass, grow mushrooms and kick ass at growing what other talents do you posses

researchkitty · Jan 25, 2011

Mr kitty does the glass, I'm useless as a turd at it.

He hasnt made anything in a while with us moving to the new spot and doing the commercial op. Mushrooms are no longer, they take so much work on a bulk basis to really be worth the effort. Pots a lot more fun, cant really test every mushroom strain, I'd never get anything done!!

Medi takes the Under Current RDWC system for a test drive, 6' x 8' Screen of Green.

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