Methodical, scientific approach to nutrients and nutrient formulations discussion

fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Ben your tallking out hour rear end still. Granted you seem capable of growing some fine plants in soil but obviously that is where it stops. Soil and hydro are quite different so quit trying to push all your soil opinions off as good advice for inert hydro. I actually am in charge of a water resources labortory in a University Ben I am not just blowing smoke or bubbles as you are. The information I have provided is all useful and applies to soil and hydro.

Your pushing straight soil prinicals and practices as being the same as hydro. Your quite wrong and your giving out wrong and ludicrous advice or half ass answers like yes Dyna-Grow is good for hydro. It is good for hydro as long as your willing to deal with its faults. Not including that bit of warning is giving half ass advice and simply bad ass advice. Perhap you should just stay on the oudoor growing section until you learn more about hydro an nutrient uptake and formulation of fertilizers for hydro before you giing to cause too many problems with your poor advice on hydro. Obviously wg henevery body comaplains about the problems you still will not admit to a shear lack of knowledge or experience in that area of growing.

All the information I have given is applicable Ben, none that you have given is in regars to inert hydro or the nitri ogen cycle is worth squat as it is entirely wrong. Most the info I gave was to show you where your simple blunderous statements were flat out nonsence. When you can prove them wrong Ben then you can say they are not applicable. Until then they show you are just talking out your butt, telling half truths and proving to all that you really have no idea about nutrient chemistry or water chemistry. You read alot about flowers grown in dirt and try to say it all applies to hydro. That is just lame Ben. You are the one posting non applicable garbage.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
...I atually am in charge of a water resources labortory in a University Ben I am not just blowing smoke or bubbles as you are.
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You're so wonderful. If you spent half your time trying to correct the ills of folks' yellowing gardens as you do passing out techno bullshit that nobody can or will use, you might be an asset around here.

Thanks for the lecture, insults and especially the soil chemistry 101 lesson, it's all new to me. :mrgreen:

Keep 'em green,
UB
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
Ben your tallking out hour henis still. Granted you seem capable of growing some fine plany ts in soil but obviously that is where it stops. Si]i oil and hydro are quaite different so quit trying to push all your soil opinions ff as good davice for inert hydro. I atually am in charge of a water resources labortory in a University Ben I am not just blowing smoke or bubbles as you are. The information I have provided is all useful and applies to soil and hydro. Your pushing straight soil prinicals and practices as being the same as hydro. Yiour quite wrong and your giving out wrong and ludicrous advice or half ass asnswers like yes Dyna-Grow is good for hydro. It is good for g hydro as long as your willing to deal with its faults. Not including that bit of warning is giving half ass advice and simply bad ass advice. Perhap you should just stay on the oudoor growing section ubntil you learn more about hydro anf nutrient uptake anf=d formulation of fertilizers for g hydro p before you cause to many problems with your poor advice on hydro.
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BTW, does the university allow you to smoke or drink on the job? The straight from the written hand typos/grammatical errors, 26 in all, are quite comical. Begs the question, are you doing alot of cut-n-paste drills in this thread? Just wonderin'.

UB
 
jberry

jberry

Well-Known Member
".....enter a forum puckering up dood."

Funny Ben, i see the same thing from you in the first page or two of this thread!

I also think your trying to say "Dude" ? ...must be hard for a old guy to keep up with the times.

Don't get mad at me because Fatman is giving you a taste of your own medicine...
 
clydefrog

clydefrog

Well-Known Member
alright, this has been a super useful thread so far. stop fucking it up.

as i understand fertilizer apps...there are a limited number of sources for each macro nutrient, so even were i to mix my own blend, i'm still going to have most of the same ingredients as say, Peters Pro.

in which case, if i can find a commercial formula with no urea and very low concentrations of ammonium nitrate, I could use it in my aero system. yes? or must i exclude all forms of ammonia?
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
CONCLUSION
Urea as the source of N used in nutrient solution in the NFT hydroponic system undergoes hydrolysis with the release of NH4 + and the
subsequent formation of NO3+. The urea was completely hydrolysed by the 20th day. There was no difference in either the plant dry weight
in the 100% urea or 100% nitrate treatments at harvest.

http://psasir.upm.edu.my/3189/1/Urea_as_the_Nitrogen_Source_in_NIT_Hydroponic_System.pdf

So Dyna-Gro is all focused on soil, eh? Looks like they knew what they were doing for both soil and hydro applications when designing their formulations. There's enough nitrate N for hydro, and a good mix of ammoniacal and nitrate N for soil.

Urea as an Organic Nitrogen Source for Hydroponically Grown Tomatoes in Comparison with Inorganic Nitrogen Sources

http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110001718061/en

Totally confused yet kiddies? You should be. :bigjoint:
 
B

bran1981

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
Your quite wrong and your giving out wrong and ludicrous advice or half ass answers like yes Dyna-Grow is good for hydro. It is good for hydro as long as your willing to deal with its faults. Not including that bit of warning is giving half ass advice and simply bad ass advice.QUOTE]
So what is it's faults if you use it for hydro?
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Gixxerboy

Gixxerboy

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
your quite wrong and your giving out wrong and ludicrous advice or half ass answers like yes dyna-grow is good for hydro. It is good for hydro as long as your willing to deal with its faults. Not including that bit of warning is giving half ass advice and simply bad ass advice.quote]
so what is it's faults if you use it for hydro?
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originally posted by fatman7574
yes it will work very well, but in recirculating hydroponic grows there will be a daily low ph problem during most of the budding cycle do to the extremely high levels of ammoniacal nitrogen in all their formulations. Depending on lighting intensities ph might even be a daily problem during the veg cycle.
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0000000000
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B

bran1981

Well-Known Member
Ya but I'm trying to figure out if that is the only problem or not. As well as if he is saying that it's not good for hydro then what is a good 1 part off the self fert for all the people that don't know how or want to mix there own?
 
Gixxerboy

Gixxerboy

Well-Known Member
I have a dyna-grow foliage question if you have great ph drop everyday and you had to use sodium bicarbonate "pH-up" everyday would it buildup over time and cause a Potassium deficiency?

Too much sodium (Na) displaces K, causing a K deficiency. Sources of high salinity are: baking soda (sodium bicarbonate "pH-up"), too much manure, and the use of water-softening filters (which should not be used)
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:o
 
Gixxerboy

Gixxerboy

Well-Known Member
bran1981 said:
As well as if he is saying that it's not good for hydro then what is a good 1 part off the self fert for all the people that don't know how or want to mix there own?
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Honestly most all ferts will need a supplement Dyna-grow will need Cal-MAG,but then can be used on both Veg and Bloom,the only self proclaimed all rounder would be FloraNova Bloom I guess reports say both veg and bloom can be achieved but then again its also reported to be not complete.(How are people getting through with Nova with no deficiency's)?So to answer your question the best way i know how is, their is no complete one bottle solution.
 
B

bran1981

Well-Known Member
Well if that is the case, then what is a really good 2 part? I am just tired off having issues in the flowering stage but am not wanting to go out and spend hundreds on ferts and having to mix 4 or 5 different things.
 
Gixxerboy

Gixxerboy

Well-Known Member
bran1981 said:
Well if that is the case, then what is a really good 2 part? I am just tired off having issues in the flowering stage but am not wanting to go out and spend hundreds on ferts and having to mix 4 or 5 different things.
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I'm in the same boat as you man i have been playing with the calculator till my eyes pop out of course you have the usual suspects from general hydro the Lucas formulas as they are

8ml GH Micro 16 ml GH Bloom
n 130
p 106
k 183
Mg 73

8ml Floranova Bloom
n 124
p 108
k 180
Mg 62

6ml Flornova Grow
n 165
p 41
K 96
Mg 35

PureBlendPro Bloom @ 15ml/gal
n 129
p 45
k 214
mg 26

PBPBloom 15ml, plus 5ml cal- mag
n 161
p 45
k 214
mg 45

And then you begin to start to try and mix your own together here are some of my hybrids.

4ml flora-Nova-Grow 7-4-10
5ml Dyna-Grow Bloom 3-12-6.
N149
P 96
K 196
Mg 31

Flora-Nova-Grow 3ml
Flora -Nova-Bloom 5ml
n 160
p 88
K 210
mg 57

Dyna-Grow Foliage Pro 9-3-6 5ml
Botanicare Cal-MAG 2-0-0 6ml
n 193
p 23
k 86
mg 32


Dyna-Grow Bloom 3-12-6 4ml
Dyna-Grow Foliage PRO 9-3-6 6ml
n 172
p 100
k148
mg 115

I'm not saying these are good im just giving examples.I guess i can get my head kicked in but as of now my targets are N150-P80-K200-Mg60-Ca120-S= hell its late i cant remember Sulfur.recirculating dwc.:sleep:
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Gixxerboy said:
I have a dyna-grow foliage question if you have great ph drop everyday and you had to use sodium bicarbonate "pH-up" everyday would it buildup over time and cause a Potassium deficiency?

:o
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Why are you getting a pH drop?

Use potassium bicarbonate if you must to raise the pH, never sodium. Potassium hydroxide would be better.

Gixxerboy said:
Honestly most all ferts will need a supplement Dyna-grow will need Cal-MAG,
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No it won't. Try it and see.

but then can be used on both Veg and Bloom,the only self proclaimed all rounder would be FloraNova Bloom I guess reports say both veg and bloom can be achieved but then again its also reported to be not complete.(How are people getting through with Nova with no deficiency's)?So to answer your question the best way i know how is, their is no complete one bottle solution.
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Time for you to talk to an expert in the field. Call up a Dyna-Gro tech. These guys will make themselves available. I used to talk to Jack Peters for example and have talked to Dyna-Gro. If techs from companies put you off, then they may be hiding something or just plain ignorant.

Another reason to buy certain prepared foods, the salts they use are high grade, pure. Fertilizers from seed/feed stores are usually sold in 50 lb. bags and are not pure. I buy Plantex blends in 50 lb. bags. It's so pure you can easily dissolve 15 lbs. in 4 gallons of water, let it sit for a while, and you'll find no precipitates.

bran1981 said:
Well if that is the case, then what is a really good 2 part? I am just tired off having issues in the flowering stage but am not wanting to go out and spend hundreds on ferts and having to mix 4 or 5 different things.
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If you're having issues in the flowering stage, as so many do, then more than likely it's your K to N ratio. You're not taking care of the leaves. Dyna-Gro does a 9-3-6 as their "grow food". Cannabis specific folks always have the K way the hell wacked out, and it shows in the health of folks' gardens. A bloom ratio of a 1-3-2 is what you should aim for, in general. At least it's worked for me. ;)

UB
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
From a non-partisan, non cannabis site (meaning, it can be trusted) - USU Crop Physiology Laboratory.

(front and center)

RESEARCH: HYDROPONICS

AMMONIUM / NITRATE RATIOS Two misperceptions exist regarding the effects of ammonium on plant growth: 1) High levels of ammonium are toxic to plants; and 2) a 30/70 mix of ammonium/nitrate promotes plant growth compared to 100% nitrate. Our studies show that neither of these widely held perceptions is correct. When pH is controlled, plants grow equally well on 30 to 80% ammonium, as on zero ammonium (100% nitrate).

http://www.usu.edu/cpl/research_hydroponics.htm

Should you get tired of reading all the stuff about ammonium N, you can always go to the RESEARCH: LUNAR CROP PRODUCTION & FAILURE ANALYSIS link for shits and grins.

Again, feel safe using Dyna-Gro products, an all-in-one, complete, cheap solution. They are designed for both hydro and soil. You have to take into consideration your soil and water profile with any of this stuff.

Make it a great day,
UB








 
clydefrog

clydefrog

Well-Known Member
i think i have a pretty good grasp on the theory behind the formulations and their interaction with my specific city water's ec and alkalinity.

a lot of the studies out there are concerned with salt buildup in media like gravel, rockwool and peat, which i won't be dealing with in my aero grow. in fact, it seems to me that my water ph affecting the solubility of my P and micronutrients is more important than initial alkilinity...does that sound right? especially if i'm draining to waste.

it would take me two years to use up a 50 lb bag of Jacks, much less a pallet of raw salts so i'm probably going to try that route first...i have grown so much half-ass sick looking, nutrient locked out wrong ph pot that getting anywhere close to a good formulation is probably going to blow me away.

how much strain-dependency have you noticed in your ferts over the years?
 
Y

YouGrowBoy

Well-Known Member
My head is spinning. We are here to learn and share better grow techniques. From 14 pages of text here's what I see.

UB: Dyna-Gro is a good/cheap solution for hydro grows.
FatMan: Dyna-Gro is barely satifactory as a hydro nute, but if you are so inclined, you could mix your own nutes (I see no off the shelf recs. from Fatman.)

The two smartest/most experienced guys on this thread have nearly complete opposite POV's.

I know I am very confused from Fatman's University level lectures. Probably beacuse my degree is in communications not chemistry. All this tech talk is difficult for us right brainers. Have some compassion for us, we excuse you for not understanding the meaning behind cinema or literature.

What is a laid back hippy without a math/chem apptitude to do?

Many of us are looking for simple/straight forward common sense answers. We're not stoopid :) we're just not chemically inclined.

So, while UB reccomends Dyna-Gro for inert hydro, (with a pretty good argument from Fatman why not to use it, and a great rebuttal from UB why Fatman's argument is invalid. I'm so confused) what do you reccomend Fatman for those of us that don't want to mix from scratch or buy over priced hydro store food?

YGB
 
Gixxerboy

Gixxerboy

Well-Known Member
YouGrowBoy said:
What do you reccomend Fatman for those of us that don't want to mix from scratch or buy over priced hydro store food?
YGB
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Form what i gather Fatman is recommending dyna-grow foliage Pro to be used from start to finish,but he is saying you should know its problems is all.The argument is about weather it was developed primarily for hydro or soil.I think :lol:,but their is no way of getting around buying those high priced nuts they all are, he explains how much of a mark up their is in the industry.:eyesmoke:
 
shnkrmn

shnkrmn

Well-Known Member
I'm actually using Dyna-Gro FP in hydro. It works great as far as I can tell. The pH is quite stable. It rises very slightly, like .2 per day. I am running about 700 ppms of Foliage Pro and another 120 ppm of cal-mag. pH was less stable at lower concentrations but still always trended upward. I'm certainly experiencing rapid, healthy growth and no symptoms of anything untoward. I added the cal mag when I saw a little chlorosis right after I flipped to 12/12. It seems to have worked.

My 2 cents.
 
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