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Mycorrhiza Fungi...why you should get to know them...

Discussion in 'Organics' started by Ohsogreen, Sep 7, 2008.

  1.  
    iHearAll

    iHearAll Well-Known Member

    More efficiently with the bokashi compost fill a 5-7 gallon pail in layers of bokashi and garbage (1inch food then just a sprinkle of bokashi).let it ferment for 2 weeks and then burry for two weeks. It's well decomposed by then.
     
    Rrog likes this.
  2.  
    MJtheIndicator

    MJtheIndicator Active Member

    I'm delighted with all the dialogue surrounding EM and bokashi, you folks are fun.
     
  3.  
    DonTesla

    DonTesla Well-Known Member

    It's a great platform we stand on... Insane growth curves cause of it.
    There's always someone doing and teaching what you wanna try and learn
     
    Rrog and Kind Sir like this.
  4.  
    IronLunG710

    IronLunG710 Member

    anyone know the relationship between myco and enzymes such as hygrozyme? just wondering if I can use em together in the same feed or if the enzymatic action might destroy any myco spores or bacteria (great white)? cant seem to find this info anywhere else so if anyone can provide a sensible answer I greatly appreciate it. Peace
     
    GreenLogician likes this.
  5.  
    MistaRasta

    MistaRasta Well-Known Member

    Microbes produce enzymes which in turn break organic matter down. If you have them in your soil (which you do) don't waste $$$ on products like hygrozyme..

    I'd be more worried about the trichoderma from great white killing your mycos than anything.
     
    Rrog and st0wandgrow like this.
  6.  
    kilojay619

    kilojay619 Well-Known Member

    are mycorrhiza fungi active in mushroom compost?
     
  7.  
    DonBrennon

    DonBrennon Well-Known Member

    No, short answer, and more than likely not even present. Myco needs a living host root to be active
     
    Rrog likes this.
  8.  
    backtracker

    backtracker Well-Known Member

    Plants are also home to millions of microbes that have a huge impact on plant health and growth. Beneficial bacteria that live in and on roots and leaves can help plants take up minerals and nutrients from the soil, fend off pathogens and withstand salt, heat and drought.

    Previous studies have shown that a plant's genes can shape its microbiome in the lab, but far fewer studies have measured the extent to which the plant microbiome is under genetic control in the field.

    "There can be thousands of different kinds of bacteria within a single leaf," said first author Maggie Wagner, who was a graduate student at Duke at the time of the study. "The question is: what factors influence the microbes that end up living inside the plant?"

    To disentangle the relative effects of a plant's genes, environment and other factors, Wagner and colleagues used DNA sequencing to analyze the microbiome of a spindly wildflower called Boechera stricta where it grows wild in the Rocky Mountains.

    Genetically identical lines of the plant were germinated from seed in greenhouses at Duke and then transplanted as seedlings into three experimental gardens in central Idaho.

    Two to four years later, the researchers returned to harvest the plants. They sequenced the bacterial DNA in the roots and leaves of 440 individuals.

    When they compared the bacterial sequences they found to databases of known microbes, the researchers detected nearly 4,000 types of bacteria living inside the plants.

    Proteobacteria and Actinobacteria were the most common bacterial groups. Roots harbored two to ten times more types of bacteria than leaves.

    Environmental differences among sites and between years -- such as soil pH, moisture and temperature -- had the biggest influence on the plants' bacterial makeup.

    On average, 5 percent or less of the variation in microbial diversity was controlled by plant genetics. The influence of plant genes was stronger in the leaves than in the roots, and varied significantly from one site to another.

    "There's a lot of interest in harnessing the power of microbiomes for plant health, especially for crop plants," said Wagner, now a postdoctoral researcher in the Department of Plant Pathology at North Carolina State University.

    Agricultural companies are already coating seeds with beneficial microbes or adding them to the soil to boost the production of crops like soybean and corn and reduce our reliance on fertilizers and pesticides.

    These results support the idea that it is also possible to use traditional plant breeding to shape the plant microbiome. But at least for crops in the same plant family as Boechera, such as cabbage and broccoli, breeding a better microbiome may be easier in leaves than roots, and a microbial community that breeds true in one location or set of growing conditions may not be reliably inherited in others.

    "Microbiomes could be a very useful tool for improving agricultural productivity in the face of population growth and climate change," Wagner said, "but designing an effective breeding program could be a lot harder than some people think it is."
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160712130223.htm
     
    DonBrennon, calliandra and testiclees like this.
  9.  
    ugmjfarmer

    ugmjfarmer Well-Known Member

    Great white actually consumes itself because they include a healthy dose of trichoderma. This will overtake the entire spore count choking them out. Hygrozyme also sucks; i'm not sure on their enzymatic formula but I do not put much stock in it. I use EM-1 as a replacement and I've never had better results; but this is soil not hydro. Great white sucks because Endo has an exchange mechanism an the inside of the root (and the hyphae extend outside the root). Endo mycorrhizae form mostly with green leafy plants and most commercially produced plants. Examples: Most Vegetables, Grasses, Flowers,Shrubs, Fruit Trees and Ornamentals.

    Ecto lives only outside of the root. Ecto mycorrhizae form mainly with Conifers and Oaks. They are required only for a small percentage of woody type plants/trees. Trichoderma also naturally exist in coco making the situation worse for competition with endo myco. In short; I only spend my money on Endo's. VM-1 is the one you will find at your grow store, but it is waaaaay overpriced. I buy mine from a company called root naturally.
     
    calliandra likes this.
  10.  
    Jared Cox

    Jared Cox Active Member

    You should check out the Rev's book True Living Organics. I been growing basically this way for years with success - it's basically just pumping up your microlife for quick breakdown of nutrients and optimal myco fungi levels. Soil gets better every year if you take care of it good. Here a good article about myco fungi and TLO growing - TLO - I use slightly over a quarter of perlite in my mix to really pump up the aeration levels.
     
  11.  
    ledder

    ledder Member

    I admit Im lazy, so I just ask here.. Anyone know any good mycorrhiza fungi product from EU area ?
    Many is saying good things about "mycrogrow soluble". Any good alternatives found in EU ?
     
  12.  
    DonBrennon

    DonBrennon Well-Known Member

    calliandra likes this.
  13.  
    DonBrennon

    DonBrennon Well-Known Member

    Just looked at the one you tagged and it's one I've looked into before. It contains all sorts and is probably good for it's beneficial bacteria..............but(and this is only theoretical, hard to prove I guess).............even though it's got the correct species of myco in it that we want, because it's mixed in with the trichoderma and the other bennies, it hasn't got much chance of surviving and actually colonising your root zone. The myco fungi spores will just be food for the trichoderma.

    You want something with just endo myco and only apply it by dusting the roots on transplant
     
    calliandra likes this.
  14.  
    platt

    platt Well-Known Member

    ++ even though it's got the correct species of myco in it that we want, because it's mixed in with the trichoderma and the other bennies, it hasn't got much chance of surviving and actually colonising your root zone. The myco fungi spores will just be food for the trichoderma.++ wa wa wa waaaa ^^.. its actually the opposite!:arrow:

    ++You want something with just endo myco and only apply it by dusting the roots on transplant++ correct!
     
  15.  
    DonBrennon

    DonBrennon Well-Known Member

    So.....................enlighten us
     
    calliandra likes this.
  16.  
    calliandra

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    I sourced mine from a company nearby: https://gluckspilze.com/Mycorrhiza-Soluble

    Yeah I really don't need all those ectos in there. The bacteria added are just fillers too, since I get my herd from compost, and I find the endo-counts are a tad low?
    But I've been using them this season all over the garden (also non-weed), and it's working fine for me though it does take a while for them to take root :rolleyes:

    I did ask them why they would mix up such a wide variety (I mean, by and large you really don't need ectos except when planting trees?), they said being too specific at this stage would confuse people to the point of giving up, so they have this product for the general public whilst they also offer crop-specific mycos (incl. consultation) for farmers.
    So while I do have a bit of an aversion to these all-in products, otoh it's not going to hurt my plants if there are spores from unneeded species in the soil AND I'm helping a small company get started.

    Oh! and they also added trichoderma... :roll: I didn't know that could cause issues, maybe I need to go back to the store and ask them about that haha
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
    DonBrennon likes this.
  17.  
    DonBrennon

    DonBrennon Well-Known Member

    Here's what I found

    http://www.scielo.org.co/scielo.php?pid=S0120-548X2006000100004&script=sci_arttext

    I was wrong about the myco spores becoming food for the tricho, but if you apply myco and tricho at the same time it does affect colonisation by the myco........................here's the specific part

    EFFECT OF T. harzianum ON PROCESS MYCORRHIZATION
    Plants treated only with AMF (AMF-0) showed a significantly greater percentage of root colonization with respect to the treated plants together with AMF and T. harzianum (AMF-Th, Table 1 ). The decrease in root colonization in the presence of biological control agents belonging to the genus Trichoderma coincides with that reported by Mcallister et al. (1994b), but contrasts with that reported by Calvet et al. (1993). The difference found in this study can be considered as a consequence of the effect exerted T. harzianum on AMF presimbiótica phase (between the germination of spores and the arrival AMF and effective invasion mycelium to root tissues period).This effect has been studied by several authors in germination tests of spores of AMF in vitro (McAllister et al , 1994a;. Fracchia et al. , 1998 ), where it has been established that different species of Trichoderma can affect the germination percentage AMF spores. In fact, they have certain reductions in the percentage of germinating spores effects antagonism Trichoderma which produces soluble substances in the environment and volatile compounds that directly affect these structures (McAllister et al. , 1994a; Martinez et al. , 2004 ). Furthermore, less blistering was observed by AMF ( Table 1 ) in conjunction with plants treated AMF and T. harzianum respect to plants treated only with AMF. Vesicles are structures lipid reserves and carbon compounds formed by AMF in advanced stages of colonization of root tissues of the plant, which are formed when the symbiosis is already well established (van Aarle and Olsson, 2003), so that a decrease in the formation of these structures could relate to a situation which affects the normal development of this symbiosis. Although not reported a direct relationship to the influence of other microorganisms rhizosphere on the production of vesicles by AMF, it can be considered that the pressure exerted by T. harzianum by releasing compounds in the substrate is a condition that can affect the normal development of mycorrhizal colonization process, for example, in terms of the time it takes to stabilize and begin AMF intrarradical accumulation of reserve substances. In other studies it has already determined that different species of Trichoderma can affect the development and operation of the intrarradical phase of the AMF (McAllister et al., 1994b).
     
    calliandra likes this.
  18.  
    DonBrennon

    DonBrennon Well-Known Member

  19.  
    calliandra

    calliandra Well-Known Member

    Yeah the results of the Spanish guys show 50% less AM colonization and only 1/5 of vesicule formation when those Trichoderma harzianum are around - whereby there were no significant differences in final effect=root colonization was almost the same. Thanks btw for the translation of that passage!

    But they also found that with the presence of AM fungi, the trichoderma population was actually halved (table 2 in the article). I was relieved to see that nature has appropriate balancing systems in place so I don't need to worry my poor broken head about it haha
    I mean, whilst the suggestion in the researchgate discussion thread is to add AM first, trichoderma later - and that does make logical sense - how the fuck does that get sorted out in nature, where no one stops by to do that for the plants? Easy, they control each other, whereby, nature doesn't necessarily go the quickest road, which we are always striving to find, humble short-lived mortals that we are haha ;)

    And then, the lack of truly different growth rates after 49 days (table 3)... which, however, they relativate, as it could be due to a possible mismatch of test plant and AM species used...

    Interestingly, their results reflect my experience with my hotchpotch myco mix - at first, it seems nothing is happening, then all of a sudden the plants take off, which I had just been attributing to time it takes for mycos to get established. hm!

    Oh and another article linked from the researchgate discussion (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929139300000755) confirms that mycorrhizal colonisation (=the final result in the other study) is not affected negatively by the presence of trichoderma, whereby they did find differences in bacterial populations.

    From this alone it wouldn't be wrong to conclude that yes, the trichoderma do have a´n effect on AM germination, not however on the final colonization? :eyesmoke:
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
    DonBrennon likes this.
  20.  
    indican3

    indican3 Well-Known Member

    Hey everyone, came across this thread today.

    I decided to pick up some mycorrhizae, specifically I just got a bag of this (1/10th the size):

    promix_pur_powder_5l_p024190.jpg


    I have some clones grown in peat pellets going into a 3 gallon container, I suppose the best approach is to follow the instruction of the video and coat the rootball of the clones in this stuff and then plant.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
    calliandra likes this.

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