new to organics

I've always used peat moss.

The mix I learned, trading sweat labor (shovel work), for what the mix should look and feel like (no measurements, all eyeballing it), was peatmoss, perlite, pine bark fines, and sheep manure. Still pretty much the same, except now it's homemade vermicompost instead of sheep shit.

I don't use 'compost', compost in my container mixes, but do employ it in my raised beds. In the second year of leaf compost and the raised beds are also my compost piles. The bark fines and VC are my 'compost' in the mixes. Also use closer to 40%, or more, perlite. My VC is pretty dense and also the bark fines as they start breaking down and I'd imagine the finished compost you're looking at is on the dense side, IDK. But, for me, the 33% perlite left the mix just a bit too dense for optimum growth and so got bumped up.

No experience with any bagged soils at all, so can't comment on them, except to say you'll be $$$ ahead learning to make from scratch. Materials for just under 10cf of base mix (peat, perlite, bark fines), is just under $40 in my area. Adding amendments might bring it up to $6/cf for finished mix. It's hard to figure, buying amendments in bulk, but still way cheaper than any 'quality' soil AND a higher quality to boot.

The best thing you can do right now though, is to start a worm bin. Really. After the initial outlay, castings are pretty much free and a higher quality than anything in a bag. IMO

Wet

Hey wet im thinking of using a mix of peat, compost (pine bark, Mushroom compost and manure) and rice hulls in equal parts. Should i be liming at 1 cup per cf of total mix? Or just be liming the Peat? I also will be adding Oyster, Kelp, Crab, Alfalfa, Neem seed, Fishbone, and Guano as well as azomite and rock dust.

johnjohn13 said:

Hey wet im thinking of using a mix of peat, compost (pine bark, Mushroom compost and manure) and rice hulls in equal parts. Should i be liming at 1 cup per cf of total mix? Or just be liming the Peat? I also will be adding Oyster, Kelp, Crab, Alfalfa, Neem seed, Fishbone, and Guano as well as azomite and rock dust.

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trust me, don't use the rice hulls. they don't provide good aeration. they sog easily/quickly, and they're so small and flat, they don't hold air well at all. There are far better options than the rice hulls.

Rasta Roy said:

Great white is a mycorrhiza product right? You do not want to brew that in a tea. They will die. They need to be applied to the root zone immediately. You can add them after you are done by brewing, right before you apply them to the plants.

And a few days is way more than needed, going that long can actually be detrimental as it'll allow time for pathogens and harmful bacteria to form.

Not sure what your veg tea recipes but my favorite is super simple...

Alfalfa meal
Kelp meal

1tbsp per gallon of water for each.

Steep for 24 hours (no aeration needed)

Then apply.

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Do you use this tea in flower or veg? Up to harvest? Any other teas you may use during vegan and flower?

Johnny-mariseed said:

Do you use this tea in flower or veg? Up to harvest? Any other teas you may use during vegan and flower?

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Veg or flower! Last two weeks I probably wouldn't apply, and if you've been hitting them once a week for three to four weeks you shouldn't need to.

A good Organic soil should have everything you need, however in container gardening, those main nutrients run out. Nutrient teas are a way to correct that. Some people will use a Guano tea to boost P and that's fine, but P is the one thing that should still be hanging out in your soil and a more all purpose solution would produce better results.

Alfalfa and kelp meal, steeped for 24 hours, then applied. You can strain the meals, mulch or compost them. Or just dump them on the plant when you water.

1/2 cup to 1 cup with five gallons of water. After the 24 hours you can dilute it with 10-15 gallons of water if you got mad plants or just stick with the 1/2 cup if you only got a few.

Use it veg or flower, whenever you see yellowing, or poor performance in your plants.

johnjohn13 said:

Hey wet im thinking of using a mix of peat, compost (pine bark, Mushroom compost and manure) and rice hulls in equal parts. Should i be liming at 1 cup per cf of total mix? Or just be liming the Peat? I also will be adding Oyster, Kelp, Crab, Alfalfa, Neem seed, Fishbone, and Guano as well as azomite and rock dust.

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You lime at the total mix but I would skip the lime if you already got the oyster. You're gonna raise your pH too high. I would also leave out the azomite because of the heavy metals but that's just my personal preference. Adding or subtracting it will probably have no noticable effect for you.

And Guano is highly water soluble and wasted in a soil mix. It washes away pretty fast. That's why commercial potting soil made with it can burn your plants at first and then leave them starving for food three weeks later.

Save the Guano for teas or watering applications when you need additional fertilization later in the plants life.

Everything else sounds solid!

Thank you for your time and knowledge! Really appreciate it man. I built my supersoil and my plants have only shown cal/mag deficiency which I've just been feeding cal/mag, 1teas/ gallon just about every watering. Also sulfur deficiency (yellowing new leaves) I've been correcting with mollasses. Is the molasses a real no-no during bud development? I heard it triggers "ripening". If so what should I be using for sulfur? I loaded my ss with sooooo much stuff... multiple manures included Never seen my girls so happy!...minus the sulfur defficient. (Tip-toeingaround a thread jack I think but the title says "new to organics " so I'm sure it's fine.)

Johnny-mariseed said:

Thank you for your time and knowledge! Really appreciate it man. I built my supersoil and my plants have only shown cal/mag deficiency which I've just been feeding cal/mag, 1teas/ gallon just about every watering. Also sulfur deficiency (yellowing new leaves) I've been correcting with mollasses. Is the molasses a real no-no during bud development? I heard it triggers "ripening". If so what should I be using for sulfur? I loaded my ss with sooooo much stuff... multiple manures included Never seen my girls so happy!...minus the sulfur defficient. (Tip-toeingaround a thread jack I think but the title says "new to organics " so I'm sure it's fine.)

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You can buy agricultural gypsum at just about any hardware or big box store. Even Walmart carries epsoma Organics gypsum for under $10. I saw it there last week. Mix with some of your compost and top dress.
I second not worrying about a liming agent or even your PH in general.

Johnny-mariseed said:

Thank you for your time and knowledge! Really appreciate it man. I built my supersoil and my plants have only shown cal/mag deficiency which I've just been feeding cal/mag, 1teas/ gallon just about every watering. Also sulfur deficiency (yellowing new leaves) I've been correcting with mollasses. Is the molasses a real no-no during bud development? I heard it triggers "ripening". If so what should I be using for sulfur? I loaded my ss with sooooo much stuff... multiple manures included Never seen my girls so happy!...minus the sulfur defficient. (Tip-toeingaround a thread jack I think but the title says "new to organics " so I'm sure it's fine.)

Click to expand...

Molasses feeds the microbes in your soil carbohydrates to make up for the carbohydrates that typically come through the root exudites of the plant. But you should be wary of overdoing molasses because those microbes need to eat up the organic matter in your soil too but if you flood them with carbs that's all they will eat.

Molasses does supply trace amounts of potash, calcium, magnesium, and sulfur but not enough that I would consider it a good source of any.

Gypsum is a great mineral that supplies readily available calcium and sulfur without raising ph. You can too dress it into your soil at any time. The calcium gives phosphorus something to bind too and increases your uptake of that as well.

Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) mixed with water makes a great watering application of magnesium and sulfur.

Langbeinite is great for water only mixes for providing long term slow release sulfur, magnesium, and potassium. Although I would be wary of heavy repeat applications because it does have some sodium in it.

Amshif87 said:

You can buy agricultural gypsum at just about any hardware or big box store. Even Walmart carries epsoma Organics gypsum for under $10. I saw it there last week. Mix with some of your compost and top dress.
I second not worrying about a liming agent or even your PH in general.

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Worry about ph a little lol. I overloved my soil with oyster shell flour recently and was having to apply sulfur to bring it down a few weeks after transplant!

Although if I would have just stuck with gypsum it wouldn't have been an issue:/

Lime and oyster are essentially the same thing (CACO3) unless you are referring to dolomite. I respectfully disagree about rice hull. Rice hull is a great source for silica and does provide good aeration as long as you understand that it will saturate after a few grows so it may not be the best for someone using a no till method that will be recycling their soil grow after grow.

Amshif87 said:

You can buy agricultural gypsum at just about any hardware or big box store. Even Walmart carries epsoma Organics gypsum for under $10. I saw it there last week. Mix with some of your compost and top dress.
I second not worrying about a liming agent or even your PH in general.

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Gypsum is something I admit I left out of my mix. My bad. Will the gypsum stay in the soil after top dressing or will I need to put it on a schedule? I also added dolomite lime when I built my soil. At first I thought I over did it but I Ph'd the soil the other day and I know, I know not a trust worthy tool,but regardless... it ph'd at 7.1.

Rasta Roy said:

Molasses feeds the microbes in your soil carbohydrates to make up for the carbohydrates that typically come through the root exudites of the plant. But you should be wary of overdoing molasses because those microbes need to eat up the organic matter in your soil too but if you flood them with carbs that's all they will eat.

Molasses does supply trace amounts of potash, calcium, magnesium, and sulfur but not enough that I would consider it a good source of any.

Gypsum is a great mineral that supplies readily available calcium and sulfur without raising ph. You can too dress it into your soil at any time. The calcium gives phosphorus something to bind too and increases your uptake of that as well.

Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) mixed with water makes a great watering application of magnesium and sulfur.

Langbeinite is great for water only mixes for providing long term slow release sulfur, magnesium, and potassium. Although I would be wary of heavy repeat applications because it does have some sodium in it.

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Theres some amazing info right there. (I think I like this cat). Ive never heard of langbeinite but I don't use any bottles except cal/mag so absolutely salt free,errr as far as I know and I understand the importance of not mixing salts in with living soil.
Thank you so much for explaining the microbes "getting use to the carbs" from molasses. Does that mean microbes eat the molasses first because they're easier to eat/ more available and when you water them in they are strictly on a carb diet and therefor will die off waiting for more carbs from the plant instead of eating the organics?? Am I thinking right?? I dunno I just tried some newly made wax.
Epsom is great stuff! But, can you over do it? I mean I'm sure you can but what's to much? I've been using it once in a while just when I notice some yellowing new growth. Thanks again. Appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share!

Johnny-mariseed said:

Gypsum is something I admit I left out of my mix. My bad. Will the gypsum stay in the soil after top dressing or will I need to put it on a schedule? I also added dolomite lime when I built my soil. At first I thought I over did it but I Ph'd the soil the other day and I know, I know not a trust worthy tool,but regardless... it ph'd at 7.1.

Theres some amazing info right there. (I think I like this cat). Ive never heard of langbeinite but I don't use any bottles except cal/mag so absolutely salt free,errr as far as I know and I understand the importance of not mixing salts in with living soil.
Thank you so much for explaining the microbes "getting use to the carbs" from molasses. Does that mean microbes eat the molasses first because they're easier to eat/ more available and when you water them in they are strictly on a carb diet and therefor will die off waiting for more carbs from the plant instead of eating the organics?? Am I thinking right?? I dunno I just tried some newly made wax.
Epsom is great stuff! But, can you over do it? I mean I'm sure you can but what's to much? I've been using it once in a while just when I notice some yellowing new growth. Thanks again. Appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share!

Click to expand...

The carbohydrates are super simple in make up and easy for them to eat, the addition of them will cause their population to explode. This increased population will eat the organic matter in your soil faster, changing it to plant uptakeable form, making sure your plant has all the nutrients it needs in your soil fully available. This is also the same reason people add compost teas. Microbes are like people, there is other food around that they should be eating, but if you got a bunch of sugars, that's what they'll eat. If you keep the soil moist the population will stay healthy and full and you don't need to add additional molasses. However if your medium dries out, then a large population of microbes will die off and more molasses or a compost tea will be needed to bring them back.

You can over do it with Epsom salts! Too much magnesium in your soil will cause it too bind up. Making it harder for it to hold oxygen, drain, etc. This is why it's important to make sure your ratio of magnesium does not exceed your levels of calcium.

I'm always happy to talk! It's how I learned and continued to learn, gotta keep the oral tradition going!

@NaturalFarmer has a whole thread on gypsum I would encourage him to chime in on your gypsum question!

@Johnny-mariseed This kind of depends on the make up of your soil, the pH and whether you water to run off. The gypsum will dissolve and the calcium becomes freed up for the plant, while the sulfate (-- anion) will usually bond to another (++ ion) like magnesium and create epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) which will then leach and form crust on your bag. If you have high amounts of salts though, I think it would prefer to attach to sodium (++) and then can be leached out in the same way. If none are present, it could rob your Potassium however, but most soils have enough mag to not have to worry about this.
I topdress once the plant gets about a foot high and don't reapply.

I have finally given too much sulfur to my plant, but it only lasted until the plant got to about 24 inches and I saw no signs of the excess. (burned copper teeth on leaves margins that I thought was K)

NaturalFarmer said:

@Johnny-mariseed This kind of depends on the make up of your soil, the pH and whether you water to run off. The gypsum will dissolve and the calcium becomes freed up for the plant, while the sulfate (-- anion) will usually bond to another (++ ion) like magnesium and create epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) which will then leach and form crust on your bag. If you have high amounts of salts though, I think it would prefer to attach to sodium (++) and then can be leached out in the same way. If none are present, it could rob your Potassium however, but most soils have enough mag to not have to worry about this.
I topdress once the plant gets about a foot high and don't reapply.

I have finally given too much sulfur to my plant, but it only lasted until the plant got to about 24 inches and I saw no signs of the excess. (burned copper teeth on leaves margins that I thought was K)

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I've had this excess sulfur issue before as well! Was a pain to diagnose I had to get a soil test to figure it out.

johnjohn13 said:

Hey wet im thinking of using a mix of peat, compost (pine bark, Mushroom compost and manure) and rice hulls in equal parts. Should i be liming at 1 cup per cf of total mix? Or just be liming the Peat? I also will be adding Oyster, Kelp, Crab, Alfalfa, Neem seed, Fishbone, and Guano as well as azomite and rock dust.

Click to expand...

You add lime for the total amount of mix, not just the peat. *I* prefer dolomite lime since it covers both cal/mag and pH buffering. Oyster shell flour isn't bad, just extremely expensive to ship. I've also seen people who mistakenly get chicken scratch oyster shell which is totally useless in a soil mix due to particle size.

With all those amendments, I would suggest mixing equal amounts of the kelp, crab, alfalfa, neem, fishbone and guano and then add 1cup of that mixture to each cf of mix. Would also suggest the same for the Azomite and rock dust.

ShLUbY said:

trust me, don't use the rice hulls. they don't provide good aeration. they sog easily/quickly, and they're so small and flat, they don't hold air well at all. There are far better options than the rice hulls.

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Couldn't agree more ^^^. I would STRONGLY suggest perlite @40% of your mix. Just what you have listed is the makings of a very dense mix and rice hulls just ain't gonna cut it for aeration. Neither would lava rock or pumice IMO, not with this mix and where you are at with experience.

The biggest favor you could do for yourself and the future would be to start a worm bin. I see no vermicompost or EWC listed and worm castings are a game changer.

Wet

Wetdog said:

You add lime for the total amount of mix, not just the peat. *I* prefer dolomite lime since it covers both cal/mag and pH buffering. Oyster shell flour isn't bad, just extremely expensive to ship. I've also seen people who mistakenly get chicken scratch oyster shell which is totally useless in a soil mix due to particle size.

With all those amendments, I would suggest mixing equal amounts of the kelp, crab, alfalfa, neem, fishbone and guano and then add 1cup of that mixture to each cf of mix. Would also suggest the same for the Azomite and rock dust.




Couldn't agree more ^^^. I would STRONGLY suggest perlite @40% of your mix. Just what you have listed is the makings of a very dense mix and rice hulls just ain't gonna cut it for aeration. Neither would lava rock or pumice IMO, not with this mix and where you are at with experience.

The biggest favor you could do for yourself and the future would be to start a worm bin. I see no vermicompost or EWC listed and worm castings are a game changer.

Wet

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...I put chicken scratch crushed oyster shell in my mix. First step is admitting guilt... which basically means I was relying on my egg shells in my compost to supply ALL my calcium...ah... yeah that's not gonna do it. Oh and azomite. Yeah I heard someone in here hatin' on azomite but hey.. I can't get it back out and I'm bangin' at week 4. How many chickens do I have.... lol
Gypsum going in tomorrow and ACT. Week 4 and stackin'...

NaturalFarmer said:

@Johnny-mariseed This kind of depends on the make up of your soil, the pH and whether you water to run off. The gypsum will dissolve and the calcium becomes freed up for the plant, while the sulfate (-- anion) will usually bond to another (++ ion) like magnesium and create epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) which will then leach and form crust on your bag. If you have high amounts of salts though, I think it would prefer to attach to sodium (++) and then can be leached out in the same way. If none are present, it could rob your Potassium however, but most soils have enough mag to not have to worry about this.
I topdress once the plant gets about a foot high and don't reapply.

I have finally given too much sulfur to my plant, but it only lasted until the plant got to about 24 inches and I saw no signs of the excess. (burned copper teeth on leaves margins that I thought was K)

Click to expand...

I only water to run off once every 4the watering to make sure the bottoms are staying damp. (Deep breath) soooo... what your saying is I probably have enough mag in there and probably enough sulfur also so when I add the gypsum that will add calcium and in turn will attach to the mag and sulfur that already,in educated theocracy, exists and supply's the plant? You lost me at Epsom salt on my crusty bag. Are you talking about the calcium attaching to...what salts exactly if I don't use bottled nutes salts from like say rabbit piss? ...and leeched out you mean flushed out the bottom? Which would in turn be a good thing. Apparently I'm not advanced as much as thee, respectably. I just got lost.

Rasta Roy said:

The carbohydrates are super simple in make up and easy for them to eat, the addition of them will cause their population to explode. This increased population will eat the organic matter in your soil faster, changing it to plant uptakeable form, making sure your plant has all the nutrients it needs in your soil fully available. This is also the same reason people add compost teas. Microbes are like people, there is other food around that they should be eating, but if you got a bunch of sugars, that's what they'll eat. If you keep the soil moist the population will stay healthy and full and you don't need to add additional molasses. However if your medium dries out, then a large population of microbes will die off and more molasses or a compost tea will be needed to bring them back.

You can over do it with Epsom salts! Too much magnesium in your soil will cause it too bind up. Making it harder for it to hold oxygen, drain, etc. This is why it's important to make sure your ratio of magnesium does not exceed your levels of calcium.

I'm always happy to talk! It's how I learned and continued to learn, gotta keep the oral tradition going!

Click to expand...

Sooo... let's just say this...guy I know... waters twice with epsom salt to correct a sulfur issue that was actually a calcium issue that was causing a sulfur issue and then said guy top dressed with 1lb of gypsum per 5 gallon container as directed on package and watered with ACT... do you suppose my friend would be on the right track? Thanks for your patience?? Lol so to much calcium may stop k uptake or at least appear that way?

Johnny-mariseed said:

I only water to run off once every 4the watering to make sure the bottoms are staying damp. (Deep breath) soooo... what your saying is I probably have enough mag in there and probably enough sulfur also so when I add the gypsum that will add calcium and in turn will attach to the mag and sulfur that already,in educated theocracy, exists and supply's the plant? You lost me at Epsom salt on my crusty bag. Are you talking about the calcium attaching to...what salts exactly if I don't use bottled nutes salts from like say rabbit piss? ...and leeched out you mean flushed out the bottom? Which would in turn be a good thing. Apparently I'm not advanced as much as thee, respectably. I just got lost.


Sooo... let's just say this...guy I know... waters twice with epsom salt to correct a sulfur issue that was actually a calcium issue that was causing a sulfur issue and then said guy top dressed with 1lb of gypsum per 5 gallon container as directed on package and watered with ACT... do you suppose my friend would be on the right track? Thanks for your patience?? Lol so to much calcium may stop k uptake or at least appear that way?

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It depends on the kind of calcium...But yes it can lock out K, usually by raising your soil pH too high...But gypsum doesn't do that.