Organic chelates.

MudDuck

MudDuck

Member
In an effort to get results like one would see from boosters like ChaChing or Open Sesame etc from organic sources, I'm seeking ways to make organic chelates.
It seems to me that the chelation in those products are what actually serve those massive doses of PK to the plant... Sure, we can make a super concentrated AACT that could potentially have the same ratio of soluble/insoluble PK but it's not being delivered with the same efficiency to make such drastic changes.
After some reading, a few varieties of organic acids like Amino Acids, Citric Acids, maybe tartaric acid, and humic/fulvic acids. (fulvic for more immediacy and humic for longer acting delivery due to molecular chain size) act as good chelators of trace minerals...

So what I'd like to do is devise a cheap method of producing amino acids to act as a chelator to high concentrate AACTs or FPE mixes to harness the same impact of juicing a plant with something that has a ratio of like 5-50-20 in flowering.

I theorize that I can make a Fermented Plant Extract of quinoa which has an incredible amino acid profile by weight. As well, I'll use some kale stalks that would otherwise hit the compost pile in order to provide minerals. I will make a LAB serum to ferment the quinoa and kale with.
Once the quinoa/kale FPE is complete, I'll dilute it into an AACT where I would normally add mycorrhizae which will bring the brew to life with a bit of anaerobics while the lactic and amino acids begin bonding with the NPKs from the guanos/kelps.
The FPE's acidity will also keep the overall nute tea pH closer to high 5's.

Hopefully by adding this to an already living soil will crank the plants to overdrive for a few days of crucial bud development.
I'll update after I water in my first batch and observe results.
 
OneStonedPony

OneStonedPony

Well-Known Member
I find the best boost to yield & flavor, is a plant fed properly, as opposed to over fed. I use Flower Power for my base flowering nute, once a week. I don't use those mega boosters, as they can fry your plants and mess up the flavor. I use one heaping tablespoon of bloom guano to 1.5 gallons of water, 1/2 oz of Super Plant Tonic, and bubble it overnight. The stuff I buy is 0-7-0, each of my six plants (in 3 gallon air pots), gets a quart every 10 to 12 days, the first half of flowering. So, that works out, where I'm using that tea in between feedings. All the solids from the teas, get topdressed so they can continue to break down. By the time my plants are finishing, the micro life from the SPT has completely broken down the goodies in the bloom guano, and my plants look & smell heavenly. Not a result you can match, IME using chemical nutirents. Guano for the win ! It's all about the shit.
 
whodatnation

whodatnation

Well-Known Member
Its probably for soil I would think.... But I believe he is onto something here... Im dialed up and tuned in mr duck.
 
OneStonedPony

OneStonedPony

Well-Known Member
IMHO beneficial bacteria and fungi are the best natural additives one can put in their growing medium. They form a mutually beneficial relationship with your plants, and hold onto, and convert, otherwise unavailable minerals to useable forms, that feed the plant correctly. I've seen at least a 15 % increase in my yields, since I started adding them. Forget those massive PK boosters, instead, improve micro life in the root zone, and feed reasonable, and the plant will hit it's mark. Because either the genetics produce frosty plants, or they don't.
 
whodatnation

whodatnation

Well-Known Member
I don't think he is getting at pk boosting, more about making what's already there more available. Will see what he has to say.
 
pSi007

pSi007

Active Member
OneStonedPony said:
IMHO beneficial bacteria and fungi are the best natural additives
Click to expand...

Yup, they keep the soil in a perfect homeostasis. Most people who grow in containers have problems keeping their soil from getting too hot or wet and going rancid.. Careful with some of those heavy organics, they can turn real nasty in warm soil.

Too many people have problems letting their soil get too warm, this will kill all of the fungi. Some fungi have been reported to live in VERY high temps, but these are recent finds in science news.


Aerated Tea will brew at a slight base if you do it right, not sure why anyone would want to brew a pH5s tea. When the organics decompose further, they will get real nasty. You have to remember, 12-0-0 means there is 12% nitrogen, ect.. The other 88% turns acidic when it decomposes. The trick is to not let it decompose too quickly, this will cause the massive acid spikes and brow roots.



Fermented Quinoa, hu? haha.. make sure there is no alcohols in it, the yeast and quinoa husks will rot.. People are going wild with MORE MORE MORE.. dude... Nature...
 
SpicySativa

SpicySativa

Well-Known Member
Organics don't get "real nasty" when they decompose. And I've never heard of this "too hot or wet and going rancid" problem that "most growers" are having...

Where are you pulling this info from? I suggest you focus your research somewhere else.
 
Jack Harer

Jack Harer

Well-Known Member
Spicy, I don't know too hot from too wet, but anaerobic conditions will get pretty rank, pretty quick. you've been here too long and are too well respected (by me) for me to call ya out on this. Could it be an interpretation issue?
 
Jack Harer

Jack Harer

Well-Known Member
MudDuck said:
In an effort to get results like one would see from boosters like ChaChing or Open Sesame etc from organic sources, I'm seeking ways to make organic chelates.
It seems to me that the chelation in those products are what actually serve those massive doses of PK to the plant... Sure, we can make a super concentrated AACT that could potentially have the same ratio of soluble/insoluble PK but it's not being delivered with the same efficiency to make such drastic changes.
After some reading, a few varieties of organic acids like Amino Acids, Citric Acids, maybe tartaric acid, and humic/fulvic acids. (fulvic for more immediacy and humic for longer acting delivery due to molecular chain size) act as good chelators of trace minerals...

So what I'd like to do is devise a cheap method of producing amino acids to act as a chelator to high concentrate AACTs or FPE mixes to harness the same impact of juicing a plant with something that has a ratio of like 5-50-20 in flowering.

I theorize that I can make a Fermented Plant Extract of quinoa which has an incredible amino acid profile by weight. As well, I'll use some kale stalks that would otherwise hit the compost pile in order to provide minerals. I will make a LAB serum to ferment the quinoa and kale with.
Once the quinoa/kale FPE is complete, I'll dilute it into an AACT where I would normally add mycorrhizae which will bring the brew to life with a bit of anaerobics while the lactic and amino acids begin bonding with the NPKs from the guanos/kelps.
The FPE's acidity will also keep the overall nute tea pH closer to high 5's.

Hopefully by adding this to an already living soil will crank the plants to overdrive for a few days of crucial bud development.
I'll update after I water in my first batch and observe results.
Click to expand...
Seems to me that the mycorrhizae do what you are trying to accomplish here. A form of protein chelation. Are you trying to help the "non-organic" folks out here? An organic grow has this mechanism already in place. There really is no need to "boost" P and K levels in a good organic environment.
 
pSi007

pSi007

Active Member
8)


ever used blood meal or guano? keep on fermenting those starch husks? I don't want to be a dick.. Sorry..

Organic shit will rot when it`s in moist and warm soil which does not properly dry out. Most noobs have this problem, I find simplicity always worked best.

I use organics with aerated soil/soiless + a touch of Dolomite lime to keep the pH spikes in check. I even paint my containers white, it gets pretty hot in NorCal during the summer.. cook the fug outta the roots... Decomposing organics will raise the temps even higher.. I have seen container pots get over 140f, the plants look like shit and cannot survive long....


believe it or not, a container-pot can change the pH drastically by warming it up.. it`s just chemistry. ;) slight acid @ 25c is much more acid in 40celcius.



btw.. I never put the cellulose and sugar shit in my brews, i think it makes them go sour (ferment or acid).. Yuk... Dont want that shit in my medium as well.. My microbes live fine from a diet of blood meal,guano, soluble seaweed powder, and humic acids. My soil can't handle more decomposing sugars and starch.



Seriously, using starch husks from quinoa is a breakthrough? I`ll believe it when you show me the science and the chemistry of WHY.. Amino acids in quinoa?

I just buy a stack of Amino Acids Complex for Human consumption.
http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Amino-Complete-Caps/dp/B0013OQIEY/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1380641885&sr=1-1&keywords=amino+acid+complex

I throw 5 pills into 55 gallons of aerated water..

L-Alanine, L-Arginine, L-Aspartic Acid, L-Cysteine, L-Glutamic Acid, L-Glycine, L-Histidine, L-Isoleucine, L-Leucine, L-Lysine, L-Methionine, L-Ornithine, L-Phenylalanine, L-Proline, L-Serine, L-Threonine, L-Tryptophan, L-Tyrosine and L-Valine.
Click to expand...
not bad for a nickle per pill.. ;)
 
SpicySativa

SpicySativa

Well-Known Member
Probably just a misinterpretation on my part... If your medium stays too wet, it will go anaerobic and stanky.

It's not the decomposing of organic material that causes things to go south, it's the lack of oxygen. A well built soil will not go anaerobic; the ammendments will decompose aerobically, which is exactly what you want.

When you moisten down a soil to compost, you want the moisture level to be similar to a FULLY wrung out sponge. Wetter than that and you'll get some anaerobic funk (ammonia, puke, poo, or rotten egg smells).

Sorry for the misunderstanding, if we're actually on the same page.

Cheers,

-SpicySativa
 
pSi007

pSi007

Active Member
cool! what do you think about that amino acid complex for $0.25 for 55-gallons of water? I think it works!
 
SpicySativa

SpicySativa

Well-Known Member
If your brews are going "sour", it's not because of the sugars. It's because you don't have sufficient oxygen levels to keep your brew aerobic. Without a food source AND sufficient aeration, you won't get the exponential explosion of aerobic bacteria you're looking for.

I've done some experiments with various recipes and various brewer styles and I was amazed at how quickly bacteria can deplete O2 levels when they have an easily available food source. DO was measured with a Hach dissolved oxygen meter. In one particular trial using an aquarium pump, 1 cup of castings from my worm bin and 1 tbsp/gal molasses, DO levels dropped from 9.5 mg/l to 0.5 mg/L within 12 hours. You need to match your food (sugar) additions to the amount of O2 you're able to supply. If you're just usin little fish tank pumps, you can only get away with adding a very small amount of sugar. With my home made 5 gallon vortex brewer and 80 watt air pump, I can easily brew fresh-smelling teas with about 1 TBSP of molasses per gallon. DO levels never drop below about 7-8 mg/L, and the brews smell (and work) great.

Here's a link to a couple of my brewing trials discussed over at ICmag.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=255613
 
pSi007

pSi007

Active Member
SpicySativa said:
If your brews are going "sour", it's not because of the sugars. It's because you don't have sufficient oxygen levels to keep your brew aerobic.
Click to expand...

sugar + oxygen = vinegar.
sugar + no oxygen = alcohol.

maybe your bacteria from the bloodmeal/guano or whatever is killing the natural souring process of the sugar. ;)
I hate ICmag, too many OG kush trolls and rats lurking there, too much pro's worried about face and money, imo.


what about that Amino Complex? I thought that was the point of the quinoa thing.. :joint: not so much the starches, rather amino acids.
 
SpicySativa

SpicySativa

Well-Known Member
pSi007 said:
sugar + oxygen = vinegar.
sugar + no oxygen = alcohol.

maybe your bacteria from the bloodmeal/guano or whatever is killing the natural souring process of the sugar. ;)
I hate ICmag, too many OG kush trolls and rats lurking there, too much pro's worried about face and money, imo.


what about that Amino Complex? I thought that was the point of the quinoa thing.. :joint: not so much the starches, rather amino acids.
Click to expand...
I mean no disrespect, but I've gotta set a couple things straight.

Vinegar (acetic acid) is produced in a two-step process. First, sugar (usually from fruit) is fermented by yeasts in an anaerobic process. This produces alcohol, CO2, and additional yeast biomass. Then, in a second process, the alcohol is converted to acetic acid by acetobacteria. This second process is aerobic, which may have been the source of confusion with your "sugar + oxygen = vinegar" statement.

Adding sugar to an aerobic soil or brew will not produce acetic acid (thus lowering pH, or "souring"). It actually has quite the opposite result. Soil bacteria (and the bacteria hitching a ride to your soil via blood meal, guano, etc) produce slimy substances known as extracellular polysaccharides (among many other compounds). These extracellular substances actually tend to raise the pH and buffer it near neutral. This is what happens each time you brew a healthy batch of compost tea. My teas frequently start bubbling with a very low pH due to the addition of fish hydrolysate. During a typical brew cycle, the pH starts around 4.5-5, and ends between 6.5 and 8. I am not the least bit worried by adding a tea with a pH between 5 and 8.

Hope that clears a few things up.

Cheers,

SpicySativa
 
SpicySativa

SpicySativa

Well-Known Member
In other words, as long as your soil (or your brew) remains aerobic, adding sugar WILL NOT cause the "souring" you describe. The "souring" is happening because your brew is going anaerobic and producing alcohols, which can then be converted to acids.
 
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