Jack Harer
Well-Known Member
Judging from all the things I've seen you post, we're most def on the same page. You are one of the few my friend!
Organic chelates.
- Thread starter MudDuck
- Start date
Judging from all the things I've seen you post, we're most def on the same page. You are one of the few my friend!
Jack Harer
Well-Known Member
pSI007, don't fall into the trap I did and over engineer this. my fishing analogy also applies to my bud production!! It'll be a while before I actually see "profit". KISS, organics, nature and GOD (or your concept thereof) will get the best results. We as humans can't improve that no matter what Monsanto says......
Now if yer in this just fer the knowin of shit............... I luv ya!
Now if yer in this just fer the knowin of shit............... I luv ya!
whodatnation
Well-Known Member
Just reading over some posts, yes compost will go anaerobic if too wet thus locking out air for the microbes not because its too hot,, yes you will have some issues if your trying to grow in hot compost of course (i call cooking soil compost its all the same), its not the composts fault lol just give it proper time and all your good fungi will grow once things cool down.
Anywho lets stay positive, I'll pm mud duck and see if hes around.
Also spicy, I notice my tea brews regularly finish at ph 8 sometimes more if Im testing a concentrate, I didnt really know why so thank you
Iv been giving it to my plants with no problems for years.
Id also like to re-mention what you said about teas going bad, not just a lack of o2 but lack of food will do it too. Iv successfully stretch a brew out 5 days by adding more food with no stank and still having that fresh tea smell.
Im no scientist lol but Iv picked a few things up along the way, staying tuned to hopefully pick up more.
Anywho lets stay positive, I'll pm mud duck and see if hes around.
Also spicy, I notice my tea brews regularly finish at ph 8 sometimes more if Im testing a concentrate, I didnt really know why so thank you
Iv been giving it to my plants with no problems for years. Id also like to re-mention what you said about teas going bad, not just a lack of o2 but lack of food will do it too. Iv successfully stretch a brew out 5 days by adding more food with no stank and still having that fresh tea smell.
Im no scientist lol but Iv picked a few things up along the way, staying tuned to hopefully pick up more.
MudDuck
Member
Thanks for clearing all that up, whodat.
First of all, let's explore chelation and why aminos can be important.
http://biogro.com/resources/CFSM/BG CFS 03 - Amino Minerals and Foliar Feeding.pdf
'Those PK boosters' are beneficial in that they increase bud weight when used properly. They ultimately boil down to the penetrating ability of the fertilizer solution. EDTA is commonly used to hold molecules in place so they interact quicker with the root base, however it is linked with cancer and other nasty side effects from exposure. Spain outlawed inorganic chelates years ago and their organic ag industry relies on the principles of liquid amino acid chelation from hydrolized grains and covercrops to produce powerful fertilizers for food crops. You'll see from the article above that aminos bond to metal ions in their environment and increase absorption into the cuticle (tissue). The article also explains why humics/fulvics make lousy chelates for foliar applications; the molecule is just too big. Aminos are much smaller and don't need to be further broken down to be useful. The article is correct, there is indeed debate about what constitutes humic or fulvic acid at all. The bottom line is that the humic/fulvics are not as ready to interact with nutrients as aminos. (Don't stop using humic/fulvic, start using aminos in addition to them- Aminos may even help break down the humic/fulvic faster by churning ionic activity which the humic/fulvic can piggy-back onto.)
The quinoa came into play when I began to consider cheap methods of obtaining organic aminos cheaply (Afterall, this whole project is about maximizing organic output). I live in CO where amaranth grows well so I'd probably end up using it in a fermented plant extract instead. You'll notice that amaranth actually has a slightly better amino acid profile than quinoa anyway. So I set out to find a product called EM-1 from teraganix which is a compost accelerator, the same shit you can make from rice water and milk more or less. I look all over town till a friend tips me off to a place called American Clay Works in Denver. So I visit the store and speak to a guy about my project and how I want some EM-1 to ferment locally foraged amaranth into usable aminos. He said you could do that or you could try this stuff...
http://kimitec.com/?page_id=699
This product is from Spain and is 26% amino acids. Here's the label.
The guy at the shop hooked me up with some samples and I'm about to purchase a bottle.
I just used this stuff in late flowering with molasses on organic soil and my flowers started to smell of fruit and bulk immediately. The terpene production seemed to kick into overdrive with this stuff while the normal mild deficiencies of flowering started to correct themselves. The stuff does what it says it does and at 1 or 2 mL/gallon, goes a long way.
My flowers just cured into the smoke zone and I can say I will continue to use Amifort or some form of hydrolized amino acid blend in my living organic soils.
So to review, aminos have chelate activity that trumps humic/fulvic and properties that allow better uptake in the plant tissue after they've bonded with other molecules in the soil. Seeing as amino acids levels are sought in beer brewing (even recipes that call for aerobic introduction), I can't imagine the mykos not liking the stuff. And aminos are very suitable for organic foliar sprays to correct trace mineral deficiencies because their molecule size allows for absorption into the leaf in chelated form.
I haven't tried Bragg's Liquid Aminos yet but I imagine it works.
First of all, let's explore chelation and why aminos can be important.
http://biogro.com/resources/CFSM/BG CFS 03 - Amino Minerals and Foliar Feeding.pdf
'Those PK boosters' are beneficial in that they increase bud weight when used properly. They ultimately boil down to the penetrating ability of the fertilizer solution. EDTA is commonly used to hold molecules in place so they interact quicker with the root base, however it is linked with cancer and other nasty side effects from exposure. Spain outlawed inorganic chelates years ago and their organic ag industry relies on the principles of liquid amino acid chelation from hydrolized grains and covercrops to produce powerful fertilizers for food crops. You'll see from the article above that aminos bond to metal ions in their environment and increase absorption into the cuticle (tissue). The article also explains why humics/fulvics make lousy chelates for foliar applications; the molecule is just too big. Aminos are much smaller and don't need to be further broken down to be useful. The article is correct, there is indeed debate about what constitutes humic or fulvic acid at all. The bottom line is that the humic/fulvics are not as ready to interact with nutrients as aminos. (Don't stop using humic/fulvic, start using aminos in addition to them- Aminos may even help break down the humic/fulvic faster by churning ionic activity which the humic/fulvic can piggy-back onto.)
The quinoa came into play when I began to consider cheap methods of obtaining organic aminos cheaply (Afterall, this whole project is about maximizing organic output). I live in CO where amaranth grows well so I'd probably end up using it in a fermented plant extract instead. You'll notice that amaranth actually has a slightly better amino acid profile than quinoa anyway. So I set out to find a product called EM-1 from teraganix which is a compost accelerator, the same shit you can make from rice water and milk more or less. I look all over town till a friend tips me off to a place called American Clay Works in Denver. So I visit the store and speak to a guy about my project and how I want some EM-1 to ferment locally foraged amaranth into usable aminos. He said you could do that or you could try this stuff...
http://kimitec.com/?page_id=699
This product is from Spain and is 26% amino acids. Here's the label.
The guy at the shop hooked me up with some samples and I'm about to purchase a bottle.
I just used this stuff in late flowering with molasses on organic soil and my flowers started to smell of fruit and bulk immediately. The terpene production seemed to kick into overdrive with this stuff while the normal mild deficiencies of flowering started to correct themselves. The stuff does what it says it does and at 1 or 2 mL/gallon, goes a long way.
My flowers just cured into the smoke zone and I can say I will continue to use Amifort or some form of hydrolized amino acid blend in my living organic soils.
So to review, aminos have chelate activity that trumps humic/fulvic and properties that allow better uptake in the plant tissue after they've bonded with other molecules in the soil. Seeing as amino acids levels are sought in beer brewing (even recipes that call for aerobic introduction), I can't imagine the mykos not liking the stuff. And aminos are very suitable for organic foliar sprays to correct trace mineral deficiencies because their molecule size allows for absorption into the leaf in chelated form.
I haven't tried Bragg's Liquid Aminos yet but I imagine it works.
MudDuck
Member
This is true but most of the chelating activity will be locked up by all the calcium and iron already inherent to the molasses. Molasses is great, but not for use as a chelating agent- it would add overwhelming ppm to the solution which would call for more chelation... Aminos can also be organic so I'm looking into them.
MudDuck
Member
This sounds like a rad routine. The mykos are certainly chipping in but once your tea hit soil, the mykos are not actually entering the plant tissue with the nutes. Amino chelators have that ability and so offer even a more rapid uptake of an AACT that utilizes guanos like yours. This is actually the method I was using. If you've got your AACT game on lock, give the aminos a shot and see what you find.
MudDuck
Member
The fermented quinoa would be product of a lactic acid fermentation and would contain yeast in addition to billions of other beneficial microbes. The rot will be encouraged until it's fully, uh, fermented. So basically I'm doing a controlled concentrated compost of naturally occurring quinoa (probably amaranth since that shit's right down the street) until the stuff resembles fish sauce. And again, aminos bond with things already there in the soil to utilize what the plant might not be able to access. Some plants can excrete organic acids from the roots when necessary, this mimics that natural process. Happy gardening.
MudDuck
Member
As I understand, the mykos break down insoluble nutes into lesser chains of molecules so they can be absorbed at the root. They don't actually serve it to the root though. Those gnarly boosters have steroid effects on yield, which is my goal, through organic means. So basically (Insoluble Nutes) + (Mykos) = (Soluble Nutes) + (Humic/Fulvic) + (Happy Mykos) the interaction is over at this point but you could: (Insoluble Nutes) + (Mykos) = (Soluble Nutes) + (Humic/Fulvic) + (Happy Mykos) --> + (Amino Acids) = (Soluble CHELATED nutes) + (humic/fulvic) + (still happy mykos still doing their job on insoluble nutes)
MudDuck
Member
whodatnation
Well-Known Member
lol "I dont wanna be a dick, but Im gonna take the time and effort to be a dick, ok?"
Im really glad you wrote all this stuff out mr duck, helps me to understand whats going on a bit better. Im gonna buy some of that amifort soon, sounds amazing.
Thanks again!
Im really glad you wrote all this stuff out mr duck, helps me to understand whats going on a bit better. Im gonna buy some of that amifort soon, sounds amazing.
Thanks again!
whodatnation
Well-Known Member
Amifort is on its way This is the only bottled product Iv bought in years besides molasses... Heres to trying new things, cheers.
Amifort is a liquid fertilizer composed of L-Amino Acids (26%) proceeding from double enzymatic hydrolysis. Amifort is completely water soluble and suitable for use in hydroponics. Product allowed in organic agriculture according to the requirements of USDA/NOP-Final rule (USA) 205.203(b)
These products are only Available in the Following States currently! Please do not place an order for these products unless we will ship to one of these States as we will have to refund your money:
Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, Ohio, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming.
[h=3]GUARANTEED ANALYSIS[/h]Total Nitrogen (N) 5.0 %
5% Water Soluble NitrogenDerived from: hydrolized barley, hydrolized wheat, hydrolized corn and hydrolized sugar beet
CONTAINS NON-PLANT FOOD INGREDIENTS:
Total L-Amino Acids……………….26.086%
L-Asparagine 0.231%
L-Glutamine 12.000%
L-Arginine 0.166%
L-Alanine 0.140%
L-Valine 0.136%
L-Lysine 3.821%
L-Leucine 0.196%
L-Serine 0.124%
L-Glycine 7.745%
L-Threonine 0.151%
L-Proline 0.737%
L-Methionine 0.103%
L-Isoleucine 0.147%
L-Phenylalanine 0.139%
L-Tyrosine 0.250%
This is the only bottled product Iv bought in years besides molasses... Heres to trying new things, cheers. Amifort is a liquid fertilizer composed of L-Amino Acids (26%) proceeding from double enzymatic hydrolysis. Amifort is completely water soluble and suitable for use in hydroponics. Product allowed in organic agriculture according to the requirements of USDA/NOP-Final rule (USA) 205.203(b)
These products are only Available in the Following States currently! Please do not place an order for these products unless we will ship to one of these States as we will have to refund your money:
Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, Ohio, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming.
[h=3]GUARANTEED ANALYSIS[/h]Total Nitrogen (N) 5.0 %
5% Water Soluble NitrogenDerived from: hydrolized barley, hydrolized wheat, hydrolized corn and hydrolized sugar beet
CONTAINS NON-PLANT FOOD INGREDIENTS:
Total L-Amino Acids……………….26.086%
L-Asparagine 0.231%
L-Glutamine 12.000%
L-Arginine 0.166%
L-Alanine 0.140%
L-Valine 0.136%
L-Lysine 3.821%
L-Leucine 0.196%
L-Serine 0.124%
L-Glycine 7.745%
L-Threonine 0.151%
L-Proline 0.737%
L-Methionine 0.103%
L-Isoleucine 0.147%
L-Phenylalanine 0.139%
L-Tyrosine 0.250%
pSi007
Active Member
Acetobacterium is a genus of anaerobic, gram-positive bacteria that belong to the Eubacteriaceae family. The name has originated from the fact that they are acetogens, predominantly making acetic acid as a by-product of anaerobic metabolism. Most of the species reported in this genus are homoacetogens, i.e. solely producing acetic acid as their metabolic by-product. They should not be confused with acetic acid bacteria which are aerobic, gram-negative alphaproteobacteria and widely used to produce vinegar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetobacterium
Acetic acid bacteria (AAB) are bacteria that derive their energy from the oxidation of ethanol to acetic acid during fermentation. They are Gram-negative, aerobic, rod-shaped bacteria. They are not to be confused with the genus Acetobacterium, which are anaerobic homoacetogenic facultative autotrophs and can reduce carbon dioxide to produce acetic acid.
The acetic acid bacteria are usually airborne and are ubiquitous in nature. They are actively present in environment where ethanol is being formed as a result of fermentation of sugars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid_bacteria
everyone is here to learn.
I know for a fact that sugar and starch make my soil MORE acidic. No Thanks. BTW, I would pass on that bottled shit.. You can find the same ingredients for human consumption for a cheaper price. I say that bottled garbage is just another sales pitch to sell something that nobody needs. 99% of the time a noob fucks up their grow, they are putting shit in the soil/medium that they DON't need. People need to remember that growing a flower is not about MORE, MORE, MORE, and $$$$$ bottled shit, it`s about the natural process of growth and photosynth. I have seen blood, bones, and seaweed grow better herb than 99.9% of the shit out there and they NEVER touched sugar or other bottled shit that some asshole is trying to sell another asshole for $$$.
..just saying, it`s not about expensive bottled crap when nature produces better results. I think they are just trying to market their produce and they don't give 2 fucks about how many noobs bought this shit and poisoned their plants.
whodatnation
Well-Known Member
You dont understand whats going on here, psi. Adding this to my regiment, which includes a whole bunch of guanos, meals ect, makes all of these things much more available to my plants thus giving me the option to use less less less less over all.
Please dont be so quick to discredit people. Your not even acknowledging the fact that mudduck has taken the time to bring up some interesting discussion and leting us know what hes finding out. Please dont be "that guy" that just shits all over a thread with good potential... There are far too many here at riu, it drives all the good people away.
And if youd pay attention you would realize these are things you can make yourself for practically free. This isnt what you think it is.
edit: and please stop with the condescending winks, its just embarrassing.
Please dont be so quick to discredit people. Your not even acknowledging the fact that mudduck has taken the time to bring up some interesting discussion and leting us know what hes finding out. Please dont be "that guy" that just shits all over a thread with good potential... There are far too many here at riu, it drives all the good people away.
And if youd pay attention you would realize these are things you can make yourself for practically free. This isnt what you think it is.
edit: and please stop with the condescending winks, its just embarrassing.
MudDuck
Member
Here's another straightforward explanation that clarifies how chelates work. Their figures show Glycine (basic amino acid), Gluconate (broken down chunk of Gluconic acid), Citrate (broken down chunk of citric acid), and Tartarate (broken down chunk of tartaric acid).
http://organicsoiltechnology.com/chelation-and-live-organics-soils.html
All of these things can be derived from organic sources (probably why it's on an organic soil site) and should be a considered candidate for a super soil mix
http://organicsoiltechnology.com/chelation-and-live-organics-soils.html
All of these things can be derived from organic sources (probably why it's on an organic soil site) and should be a considered candidate for a super soil mix
NickNasty
Well-Known Member
http://www.kelp4less.com/shop/aminoacids/
[video=youtube;1dpSJOqnF2w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dpSJOqnF2w[/video]
[video=youtube;1dpSJOqnF2w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dpSJOqnF2w[/video]
whodatnation
Well-Known Member
Calm down no one is suggesting pouring sugar on your roots lol, I think someone mentioned it in AACT for the microbial populations,,,, no for the plants directly but indirectly yes.
This shit doesnt have all this sugar you speak of in it... and Iv been here since 2010 with lots and lots of grow material posted, if this was me trying to sell a product you would fukin know it and Im sure Id have some riu ers behind me ready to purchase.
You are still a bit confused. Please calm down and let us discuss this in peace, we arnt trying to sell anything,,, just leave please your being aggravating.
whodatnation
Well-Known Member
These products are quite different to my understanding. I'll look at it some more though, thanks. BTW never get molasses from them, its really watered down. That said I get lots of stuff from them, good place imo.
whodatnation
Well-Known Member
Ok now your just a troll, why do you hate everything so much? Sad sad people.
whodatnation
Well-Known Member
Haha you got that suff piling up on you!
Hey is there anything we can do about this psi guy? Hes destroying this tread with multi posts, offensive posts, and just straight up confrontational bullshit.
Anything?
Hey is there anything we can do about this psi guy? Hes destroying this tread with multi posts, offensive posts, and just straight up confrontational bullshit.
Anything?