Organics ARE chemicals

doc111

Well-Known Member
http://www.sarnet.org/lib/MIT%20-%20Hg%20hair%20autism%20vs%20control.pdf Hair sampling for heavy metal content in Autistic children.
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15563650701338195 all 17 autistic children secreted higher levels of Heavy Metals.

Theres the proof AGAIN. deleating the post wont make it go away.

hydropinic fertalizers = metals. metal poisoning leads to Autism. direct link

i'll keep posting the proof, and keep siting the studys. it doesn;t matter if you want to abuse your Mod powers, because i will keep reporting you for deleting pertinent information.
I deleted your post because I asked you before to please refrain from the insults and you felt the need to get in another little jab. I have no problem with you or your information but insults to ANY other members will not be tolerated. I don't want to have to close this thread but if we can't all be adults here............:joint:
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
http://www.sarnet.org/lib/MIT%20-%20Hg%20hair%20autism%20vs%20control.pdf Hair sampling for heavy metal content in Autistic children.
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15563650701338195 all 17 autistic children secreted higher levels of Heavy Metals.

Theres the proof AGAIN. deleating the post wont make it go away.

hydropinic fertalizers = metals. metal poisoning leads to Autism. direct link

i'll keep posting the proof, and keep siting the studys. it doesn;t matter if you want to abuse your Mod powers, because i will keep reporting you for deleting pertinent information.

I am asking questions that should have easy answers. It doesn't make sense for you to be so hostile to the simple request of providing information. Making a claim like "heavy metals are the MAIN cause of autism" and alluding to data shouldn't be difficult to validate. True knowledge does not mind dispute. I find it hard to believe these are the two studies you had in mind when you made that claim, as they do not do anything to show a substantial correlation, let alone causation.

The links you provided seem to just be fodder so that you can then claim to have provided something pertinent. I am not disputing what they show, but that the information does anything to demonstrate that metals are the main factor in autism. Which again, if it were true, would be easy to demonstrate through testing.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I think if you want to make an argument against big agriculture you could write pages and pages of true claims backed up by empirical evidence, without ever mentioning the speculation of disease like autism and diabetes, but none of those would bear much impact on the idea that organic bud is safer than the alternative. While this seemed to be a worthwhile area to consider when it was brought up, nothing pertinent was shown to be behind it, and it has moved beyond the scope of the issue.
 

Nullis

Moderator
true organic growing would be throwing a handfull of seeds into the woods and comeing back to harvest. once you minipulate a plant or add store bought fertalizers its not organic anymore. although many fertalizers say there organic, show me one example of water soluble rock phosphates in nature. although some might argue weathering will cause such it will not cause anywhere near the levels found in so called organic fertalizers. omri listed is bullshit!!!
Well if that isn't a tad narrow for so many reasons. What an arbitrarily asinine criticism of a growing style you obviously don't know the first thing about.

Organics, brotha: derived from living matter, carbonaceous compounds, chiefly or ultimately of biological origin. Obviously you wouldn't suppose that having insoluble micronized rock phosphate in living soil would be a good thing for the plant. I don't hold it against you too much because you just don't realize that plant roots exude compounds to attract biota, many of which coincidentally produce and release these enzymes (phosphatases) that break phosphate groups away from more complex compounds, some of it is retained in the microbial bio-mass until the cell dies naturally, or a nematode or protozoan, or perhaps an earthworm comes along and mineralizes the nutrients contained within... further nourishing the plant.

Aside from that, what does soluble rock phosphate... or rock phosphate in general have to with the OMRI being 'bullshit? Not every organic product contains rock phosphate, of course. And nobody ever said a good organic bottled fertilizer is totally water soluble or even should have the consistency of water. It shouldn't, it should have organic matter in it if you're growing in soil or potting mix.
 

Jack Harer

Well-Known Member
Again, we are talking about "Organic vs. Chemical". That study says nothing about the dangers of conventionally produced food crops and there has been no link (that I'm aware of at this time) establishing a connection between any of those things you've mentioned and "chemical" ferts. Now, that may change as more data comes in. I feel like I need to keep restating my position here; I'm not bashing organic or chemical for that matter. The way I see it there are advantages to both. For some reason, the hardcores on both sides don't usually want to admit this. Maybe we are fucking the planet up but it's not just chemical ferts that are doing it. It's a combination of things and I'd be willing to bet that chemical ferts aren't even at the top of the list of environmental crises we are facing. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it being talked about as an "urgent problem" that needs solving immediately like climate change for example. People act like pouring some chemical ferts in the ground is going to sterilize it. That's impossible! Nothing is truly sterile and bacteria are very strong and reproduce very rapidly. This is one argument that the organic folks always bring up that IMO is baseless. Perhaps they kill SOME of the microbial life but they don't cause barren wastelands where nothing can grow and no bacteria or fungi will ever be able to flourish again. I would LOVE to see some studies backing up this claim of chemical ferts killing ALL microbial life. I will eat my words if someone can provide a legit, scientific study which PROVES this. :peace:

Actually, Chemical nutes DO rank pretty high up on the list. I had to do a paper on this very subject in school (College). Back in the early 1900's (1900-1930) in pursuit of ever greater crops, we deviated from the "Mom and Pop" family type farm and started huge farms that specialized in grains, mainly corn and wheat. Farms became so big, that the use of composts and manures to supplement the soil weren't feasible anymore, and the conventional tilling practices of smaller farms were not practical. We started deep tilling the earth with huge machinery, and farmers became dependent on the "New" breed of chemical fertilizers. We farmed the same crop over and over, and crop rotation became impractical as well. Farmers LOVED it, 'cuz they didn't have to rotate crops anymore or haul tons of manures in and let the fields lie fallow while the manures composted. Large machinery made tiling, planting and harvesting a lot easier.What we didn't realize was that between the deep tilling, and the build up of chemical salts in the soils, the soil microbes and fauna dies off, the soil became barren and compact. All of these factors combined at the very wrong time, when the drought of the '30s hit, the entire prarie regions of N America and Canada became what we called the "Dust Bowl" as the topsoil just blew away in the seasonal high winds. All because we didn't supplement the soil properly, and killed off a few (Gazillion) microbes.
While it certainly wasn't entirely due to chemical fertilizers, the role they played was pretty significant. Even today, although we have learned to use better farming techniques, the majority of all our soil is STILL depleted of nutritional value, and farmers are still dependent on chemical nutrients for their crops. Our only solution will be to start reverting back to building back the soil structure and re-generating the microbial life.

Nor am I bashing the chemical nutes. In the short term, their use in soil grows can be good for some people, but they would prohibit any kind of soil recycling or possibility of sustainability. For what we do, thats OK for some, but myself (and many others) are going for some kind of sustainability in our soils thru the use of organics and soil structural supplementation with BioChar, and manures.

As far as the microbiology goes, certainly there are many bacteria that still will be there, but the BENEFICIALS do get killed off, as does the fungi that are critical.
Organics work mainly because of the symbiotic relationship plants have with mycorrhizal fungi. The beneficial bacteria play their roles and are extremely important, but the mycos are the most crucial factor in organics. plants cannot take up manures, or any other organic compounds until they are broken down by the micro colonies. It is the presence of this micro colony that is the entire basis for organics. Certainly we can re-establish these critical elements, but that would first and foremost involve the cessation of the use of chemical ferts.
Obviously the soil is not sterile PER SE, but for all intents and purposes, it is. And chemical fertilizers have contributed in no small way to almost turning our vast "bread belt" into a waste land.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
Actually, Chemical nutes DO rank pretty high up on the list. I had to do a paper on this very subject in school (College). Back in the early 1900's (1900-1930) in pursuit of ever greater crops, we deviated from the "Mom and Pop" family type farm and started huge farms that specialized in grains, mainly corn and wheat. Farms became so big, that the use of composts and manures to supplement the soil weren't feasible anymore, and the conventional tilling practices of smaller farms were not practical. We started deep tilling the earth with huge machinery, and farmers became dependent on the "New" breed of chemical fertilizers. We farmed the same crop over and over, and crop rotation became impractical as well. Farmers LOVED it, 'cuz they didn't have to rotate crops anymore or haul tons of manures in and let the fields lie fallow while the manures composted. Large machinery made tiling, planting and harvesting a lot easier.What we didn't realize was that between the deep tilling, and the build up of chemical salts in the soils, the soil microbes and fauna dies off, the soil became barren and compact. All of these factors combined at the very wrong time, when the drought of the '30s hit, the entire prarie regions of N America and Canada became what we called the "Dust Bowl" as the topsoil just blew away in the seasonal high winds. All because we didn't supplement the soil properly, and killed off a few (Gazillion) microbes.
While it certainly wasn't entirely due to chemical fertilizers, the role they played was pretty significant. Even today, although we have learned to use better farming techniques, the majority of all our soil is STILL depleted of nutritional value, and farmers are still dependent on chemical nutrients for their crops. Our only solution will be to start reverting back to building back the soil structure and re-generating the microbial life.

Nor am I bashing the chemical nutes. In the short term, their use in soil grows can be good for some people, but they would prohibit any kind of soil recycling or possibility of sustainability. For what we do, thats OK for some, but myself (and many others) are going for some kind of sustainability in our soils thru the use of organics and soil structural supplementation with BioChar, and manures.

As far as the microbiology goes, certainly there are many bacteria that still will be there, but the BENEFICIALS do get killed off, as does the fungi that are critical.
Organics work mainly because of the symbiotic relationship plants have with mycorrhizal fungi. The beneficial bacteria play their roles and are extremely important, but the mycos are the most crucial factor in organics. plants cannot take up manures, or any other organic compounds until they are broken down by the micro colonies. It is the presence of this micro colony that is the entire basis for organics. Certainly we can re-establish these critical elements, but that would first and foremost involve the cessation of the use of chemical ferts.
Obviously the soil is not sterile PER SE, but for all intents and purposes, it is. And chemical fertilizers have contributed in no small way to almost turning our vast "bread belt" into a waste land.
Studies? I'm not seeing studies! lol! I'm not talking about anecdotal information and agricultural history. I'm aware of virtually all of that stuff. I grew up on a farm and I own a small farm of my own. What I am seeing is a lot of claims being made but not backed up by much proof. I'm not saying this stuff isn't true, but if it is in fact true, there should be SOME legitimate, scientific, peer reviewed studies on this stuff. I agree that chemical nutes probably do kill off SOME microbial life but they aren't specifically targetting beneficial bacteria and we all know from anti-biotic resistant staph and strep strains that bacteria are able to evolve REALLY quickly to harsh conditions and find a way to survive. Cockroaches and rats don't have shit on the survival skills of bacteria! lol!

BTW, all of the farms around me still rotate their crops and only a tiny fraction are "organic" farms, and I grew up in the bread belt, still have a lot of family there so I visit pretty regularly and I'm just not seeing these swaths of barren wasteland that you're talking about. What I DO see is farmers who, like most of the rest of the world, have had to keep up and modernize in order to maintain efficiency and productivity and be competitive. The automobile is fucking up the atmosphere and the climate, yet I'm willing to bet the vast majority of members drive some sort of motorized vehicle. It's virtually impossible to survive in modern society without one! Same goes for farmers. Without chemical ferts, pesticides, herbicides and the arsenal of modern equipment they have at their disposal, much of the world would've probably starved to death by now. There has been a positive impact but many of the organic hardcore folks are only throwing out negative information, much of which I can't find any credible sources to back up. Show me credible, scientific studies proving any of what you say is true and I will gladly pack up all my "chemical" ferts and jump on board with y'all. lol! :blsmoke:
 

Illumination

New Member
Actually, Chemical nutes DO rank pretty high up on the list. I had to do a paper on this very subject in school (College). Back in the early 1900's (1900-1930) in pursuit of ever greater crops, we deviated from the "Mom and Pop" family type farm and started huge farms that specialized in grains, mainly corn and wheat. Farms became so big, that the use of composts and manures to supplement the soil weren't feasible anymore, and the conventional tilling practices of smaller farms were not practical. We started deep tilling the earth with huge machinery, and farmers became dependent on the "New" breed of chemical fertilizers. We farmed the same crop over and over, and crop rotation became impractical as well. Farmers LOVED it, 'cuz they didn't have to rotate crops anymore or haul tons of manures in and let the fields lie fallow while the manures composted. Large machinery made tiling, planting and harvesting a lot easier.What we didn't realize was that between the deep tilling, and the build up of chemical salts in the soils, the soil microbes and fauna dies off, the soil became barren and compact. All of these factors combined at the very wrong time, when the drought of the '30s hit, the entire prarie regions of N America and Canada became what we called the "Dust Bowl" as the topsoil just blew away in the seasonal high winds. All because we didn't supplement the soil properly, and killed off a few (Gazillion) microbes.
While it certainly wasn't entirely due to chemical fertilizers, the role they played was pretty significant. Even today, although we have learned to use better farming techniques, the majority of all our soil is STILL depleted of nutritional value, and farmers are still dependent on chemical nutrients for their crops. Our only solution will be to start reverting back to building back the soil structure and re-generating the microbial life.

Nor am I bashing the chemical nutes. In the short term, their use in soil grows can be good for some people, but they would prohibit any kind of soil recycling or possibility of sustainability. For what we do, thats OK for some, but myself (and many others) are going for some kind of sustainability in our soils thru the use of organics and soil structural supplementation with BioChar, and manures.

As far as the microbiology goes, certainly there are many bacteria that still will be there, but the BENEFICIALS do get killed off, as does the fungi that are critical.
Organics work mainly because of the symbiotic relationship plants have with mycorrhizal fungi. The beneficial bacteria play their roles and are extremely important, but the mycos are the most crucial factor in organics. plants cannot take up manures, or any other organic compounds until they are broken down by the micro colonies. It is the presence of this micro colony that is the entire basis for organics. Certainly we can re-establish these critical elements, but that would first and foremost involve the cessation of the use of chemical ferts.
Obviously the soil is not sterile PER SE, but for all intents and purposes, it is. And chemical fertilizers have contributed in no small way to almost turning our vast "bread belt" into a waste land.
feed your plants shit
I will feed mine chemicals

you smoke yours
I smoke mine

No problem....get it?

Namaste'
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
didn't read much. synthetic herb is gross. haha gravity was pulled from shelves, duh toxic. troll thread (as stated previously). why is this still going? the all caps in the thread title make it pretty clear what this thread is.

ice water extract aka bubble hash from my vegan organic garden:

vegan organic plushberry, a new organics invoked color I call magenturple.


is this thread over yet?
 

cannawizard

Well-Known Member
didn't read much. synthetic herb is gross. haha gravity was pulled from shelves, duh toxic. troll thread (as stated previously).

ice water extract aka bubble hash from my vegan organic garden:

vegan organic plushberry, a new color I call magenturple.


is this thread over yet?
*nope. its still trolling along... oh wells.. getting free posts points !!!

namaste~
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
didn't read much. synthetic herb is gross. haha gravity was pulled from shelves, duh toxic. troll thread (as stated previously). why is this still going? the all caps in the thread title make it pretty clear what this thread is.

ice water extract aka bubble hash from my vegan organic garden:

vegan organic plushberry, a new organics invoked color I call magenturple.


is this thread over yet?
Very nice! You can't be calling "synthetic bud" gross though man! I use some chemicals and my buds aren't gross (at least my patients don't think they're gross). I think organic is admirable and wonderful and all that, but we're not seeing much proof of some of these claims being made by the organic side. The thread is going along ok nowadays, except for a minor issue or 2. I think some valid points have been brought up and it's definitely been entertaining! lol! Hell, someone might have even learned a thing or 2!:blsmoke:
 

Illumination

New Member
Very nice! You can't be calling "synthetic bud" gross though man! I use some chemicals and my buds aren't gross (at least my patients don't think they're gross). I think organic is admirable and wonderful and all that, but we're not seeing much proof of some of these claims being made by the organic side. The thread is going along ok nowadays, except for a minor issue or 2. I think some valid points have been brought up and it's definitely been entertaining! lol! Hell, someone might have even learned a thing or 2!:blsmoke:
yeah like Matt's Messiah Complex with his cannibalizing cannabis...oh I get it ...KILLER WEED!!! ROTFLMFAO!!!

Namaste'
 

Matt Rize

Hashmaster
just for fabfun. ever heard of "popcorn lung", I can't make this shit up. Workers wear gas masks while making artificial butter.

A new study shows that exposure to a chemical called diacetyl, a component of artificial butter flavoring, can be harmful to the nose and airways of mice. Scientists at the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), part of the National Institutes of Health, conducted the study because diacetyl has been implicated in causing obliterative bronchiolitis (OB) in humans. OB is a debilitating but rare lung disease, which has been detected recently in workers who inhale significant concentrations of the flavoring in microwave popcorn packaging plants.
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/news/newsroom/releases/2008/march13/
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
Top