Phillips Elite Agro 315w T12 CMH in open fixtures - Impressive!!!

jarvild said:

Do you know if there is a spectrum shift from vertical to horizontal with the 4200k as the elite agro bulb does?

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That shift is REAL minor.
http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/ca_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/elite_design_guidev7.pdf
Cut And Paste
"
4.3 18BBurning positions of the lamp
The MasterColorCDM Elite MW lamps are “universal burning”, which means that they can be operated
in any orientation. Most common applications will be horizontal and vertical operation. Light-technical
properties are slightly different in horizontal burning position compared to the vertical position. When
rotating the lamp from the vertical towards the horizontal position, the color temperature may increase
by about 100K and the light output may decrease by up to 2%.
In horizontal burning position, it is recommended to mount the lamp such that the long frame wire is on
top. The reason for this is that in horizontal position, convection processes inside the arc tube make the
middle of the arc bend slightly upwards which changes the temperature profile in the arc tube.
Magnetic fields caused by electric currents through the frame wires inside the lamp can either enhance
or decrease this arc bending effect. The arc bending effect is minimized when the long frame wire is on
top.
"
So maybe a 2% change. If you run horizontal and don't pay attention to the long frame wire. Are you worried about this? Honestly for how hard it is to find a decent vertical reflector, i would not worry. Do you? Or do you run old school vertical "Cones"

But to answer your question, all the elite bulbs will do this. Not sure about the mogul, or any of the all starts.

Large Prime said:

Ya, like I said, he says on that link "We sell all the lamps but In horticulture after real testing we like the 210 and 315 in 4K Mogul Format."

He prefers the mogul bulb.

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I guess the only way to see the difference would be to try it, not a lot of reference out there for any of these in threads, here or anywhere I've googled. You find postings but not a lot of documented grows. I'm good with the 930 T12 running in a vertical hood, been doing too much testing the last year, time to grow some bud

Agreed. We need to grow and share and learn more in order to understand better what is better.
What vertical reflector are you running? At this point I Think it is the reflectors that are very weak. I was looking to design my own. But if you have a good one...

GroErr said:

I guess the only way to see the difference would be to try it, not a lot of reference out there for any of these in threads, here or anywhere I've googled. You find postings but not a lot of documented grows. I'm good with the 930 T12 running in a vertical hood, been doing too much testing the last year, time to grow some bud

Click to expand...

Large Prime said:

Agreed. We need to grow and share and learn more in order to understand better what is better.
What vertical reflector are you running? At this point I Think it is the reflectors that are very weak. I was looking to design my own. But if you have a good one...

Click to expand...

Yeah, this thread is a good spot to share some info, it's scarce. When I decided to try this I had some plants ready to flower and no time to screw around so I went with this LEC Sun System which includes the Sun System vertical hood, everything in the box ready to plug in. Just bought another a couple of weeks ago when they had a 10% off promo going. These are 120v so they include a converter to be able to run them @120v. I'll eventually run a 240v line in there and by-pass the converter to gain some efficiencies. I'm running a 3x3' right now with it (sig) and it's covering it well.

Have only run 2 strains so far and the one (Pure Power Plant) can't seem to handle the intensity, it's still getting bleaching/burn at 20" above the canopy. Running 3 of those PPP's and 1x Jack The Ripper, the Ripper is loving it at 20", no light stress at all. Last round I thought the PPP was getting nute burn but looking at it closely this round and taking feeds (every other watering) down to 400 ppm, it's still getting burnt/bleached. I have another PPP running in a small tent under LED's, it's handling 600 ppm with no tip burn so I'm pretty sure it's the light intensity/pheno that can't handle it. Don't really want to go higher off the canopy, even with some bleaching/burn last round a smaller 24" PPP produce 3.4 zips and no worse for wear other than it looked like shit towards the end of the round, but buds weren't affected/burnt at all, just the top-layer leaves. This is the last run for this PPP so I'm not concerned with it, will be interesting though to see how other strains behave. I have 7 different strains in veg and will mix up 3-4 strains under 2 lights once I finish the current runs.

I think for now I'll just order the combo with the 4200k bulb. I have a couple of vertical cord sets. but no vertical reflectors. I believe GroErr said he used the Sun System which I believe has the ballast mounted in the reflector. I prefer remote ballast. Also I'm using this to replace a 430 watt Sun System in my 6' x5' grow room that's running the 430 plus a 600 watt hps .

Large Prime said:

That shift is REAL minor.
http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/ca_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/elite_design_guidev7.pdf
Cut And Paste
"
4.3 18BBurning positions of the lamp
The MasterColorCDM Elite MW lamps are “universal burning”, which means that they can be operated
in any orientation. Most common applications will be horizontal and vertical operation. Light-technical
properties are slightly different in horizontal burning position compared to the vertical position. When
rotating the lamp from the vertical towards the horizontal position, the color temperature may increase
by about 100K and the light output may decrease by up to 2%.
In horizontal burning position, it is recommended to mount the lamp such that the long frame wire is on
top. The reason for this is that in horizontal position, convection processes inside the arc tube make the
middle of the arc bend slightly upwards which changes the temperature profile in the arc tube.
Magnetic fields caused by electric currents through the frame wires inside the lamp can either enhance
or decrease this arc bending effect. The arc bending effect is minimized when the long frame wire is on
top.
"
So maybe a 2% change. If you run horizontal and don't pay attention to the long frame wire. Are you worried about this? Honestly for how hard it is to find a decent vertical reflector, i would not worry. Do you? Or do you run old school vertical "Cones"

But to answer your question, all the elite bulbs will do this. Not sure about the mogul, or any of the all starts.

Click to expand...

That sounds about right, thought the light output decrease was a little higher than that on Hort(5%+/-)..............All MH/CMH bulbs are affected by this(shift), some worse than others due to the instability of the halide arcs.

But yes vert is always superior imo.....

I believe also that LEC is the designer of the reflector but when you go to their site they refer you to Sun Systems. I would prefer to have the reflector without having to deal with Hydrofarms.

jarvild said:

I think for now I'll just order the combo with the 4200k bulb. I have a couple of vertical cord sets. but no vertical reflectors. I believe GroErr said he used the Sun System which I believe has the ballast mounted in the reflector. I prefer remote ballast. Also I'm using this to replace a 430 watt Sun System in my 6' x5' grow room that's running the 430 plus a 600 watt hps .

Click to expand...

If you find a good reflector at a decent price let me know. I am currently using wings in which i replaced the mogul socket with a PGZ. I would love that sun system LEC if they just sold the square vertical reflector. So I could add my own remote ballast.

Large Prime said:

If you find a good reflector at a decent price let me know. I am currently using wings in which i replaced the mogul socket with a PGZ. I would love that sun system LEC if they just sold the square vertical reflector. So I could add my own remote ballast.

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I saw quite a few of the Sun System reflectors, most have the cooling for hps but that drives the price up, never looked but growershouse.com seems to carry quite a few of the Sun System products, not sure if they have the base reflector like the one that comes in the CMH kit. No need for special cooling as these ballast/bulbs throw off virtually no heat compared to hps/mh, cool to the touch and raised my room temps by no more than 2F compared to the LED's (same wattage) I was running before I put the LEC system in.

PSUAGRO. said:

That sounds about right, thought the light output decrease was a little higher than that on Hort (5%+/-)..............All MH/CMH bulbs are affected by this(shift), some worse than others due to the instability of the halide arcs.

But yes vert is always superior imo.....

Click to expand...

One could argue that a reflected vert looses at least 5% from the reflection. horizontal at least gets half the light unreflected.

Sup you all. Thanks for keeping the thread going, I wish I would have named it better lol.... maybe if I could beg an admin they would let me change it??

Anyways, y'all seen these yet? Damn, new iOS update and can't upload pics from the iPad again... irritating.... Apple that is. Was going to post a pic of a very low profile double horizontal bulb 315w elite Agro fixture by Dimlux. Looks sweet, but costs a grand I think.

Hey Bubba, yeah I read somewhere that the only way to get a thread name changed is to send any admin a note and they should be able to change it if you want.

Damn, 2x 315w Elite Agro's in one fixture, that'd throw some nice coverage. I'm running 2 of the LEC's now but running them separate, offset by about 4 weeks, need a bigger veg room to feed enough for a full 3x6' run with 2 units covering it. Have a corner of my laundry room spec'd out for my new veg room, winter project

Large Prime said:

One could argue that a reflected vert looses at least 5% from the reflection. horizontal at least gets half the light unreflected.

Click to expand...

not without a reflector/bare bulb........your right on the losses though...........anyways i think the lumen depreciation is also higher running a hort setup with mh/cmh.

Planning a 4x8x8 flowering area with 12 plants in hydro. Would 4 of these be comparable to 2 1000 watt hortilux hps?

I know you! Y U NO tells me you designing a reflector! I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

ttystikk said:

I've been put onto these 315W CMH bulbs by a friend who works as a breeder in a Boulder dispensary. I'm interested in getting the lamp, the socket, finding out how long the lampcord can be to effectively strike and run the bulb and what constitutes the best ballast. I do NOT want a reflector, I'm designing my own.

All information would be very helpful

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Yes. from a PAR point of view they would be a little more than 2 1K.
I have personally measured a 315 and found it within 5% of 600W MH bulbs. Since all the data i can find is that 600W bulb is !60-75% of 1K bulbs, it should be pretty comparable.

What is your reflector plan tho?

Jansen said:

Planning a 4x8x8 flowering area with 12 plants in hydro. Would 4 of these be comparable to 2 1000 watt hortilux hps?

Click to expand...

Large Prime said:

I know you! Y U NO tells me you designing a reflector! I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Click to expand...

Hey baby, I haven't had an offer like that in awhile! LMAO! I'm always down to share anything- with the exception of STDs, of course...

Large Prime said:

Yes. from a PAR point of view they would be a little more than 2 1K.
I have personally measured a 315 and found it within 5% of 600W MH bulbs. Since all the data i can find is that 600W bulb is !60-75% of 1K bulbs, it should be pretty comparable.

What is your reflector plan tho?

Click to expand...

How did you measure? Do the 860W CDM lamps have a similar profile?

these are pretty interesting.

typoerror said:

these are pretty interesting.

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I would love to get 2 or 3 of these for my 4x8x8