Ruwtz Maneuver Vol 1

Wisher2 said:

you can use coco matting to line the pots....which will allow fluid in but will contain roots

you can use thicker styrofoam
like the stuff they use for raft hydroponics in the lettuce industry
I just lift a cup and pour through the hole when thee cups get light
I never change the solution.....it sits until it is gone.....in my setup

Click to expand...

Wont be using coco mats as it will disrupt the specific molded design of the Rootmakers. More likely I will use a landscaping fabric on the inside, or perhaps even better just a DIY smart pot on the outside. Will think more on this.

For flower, any thoughts on a drip recirc system with coco? It appears unorthodox but not impossible if I get plenty of runoff (multiple feeds per day) and change res weekly. Will need to avoid buildup, esp Ca, Mg and K look likely.

I have built my low tables already, but I could get a small res under each one with a pump running to drip halos. I can see DTW is preferred but my limitation is I don't have room for a separate collection for runoff.

I would just stick to the F&D
but Drip is basically the same
Recirc would work just the same
DTW a little differ

the coco mat is breathable so no it wont hinder the effects of the root pots

I run a DTW right now
I have run recirc and F&D
I opted for DTW as it is easier for me to not have to mess with the res but once a week

Wisher2 said:

I would just stick to the F&D
but Drip is basically the same
Recirc would work just the same
DTW a little differ

the coco mat is breathable so no it wont hinder the effects of the root pots

I run a DTW right now
I have run recirc and F&D
I opted for DTW as it is easier for me to not have to mess with the res but once a week

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I flood in veg only, i'm on about flower as i've yet to implement a watering plan. Wont be going E&F as it requires a large res size and I don't have the room. But more crucially I am running different strains across four lights perpetual so I want to be able to meet strain-specific needs, hence separate setups for each light. Recirc would be easiest to do: a res each under DIY tables pumping to drip halos and runoff back to res. DTW would be trickier given my space but I'm willing to look at design solutions to see what works for me.

Look up Rootmaker pots - the function is very specific to their injection molded shape and anything put between the pot and the media will disrupt.

ruwtz said:

I flood in veg only, i'm on about flower as i've yet to implement a watering plan. Wont be going E&F as it requires a large res size and I don't have the room. But more crucially I am running different strains across four lights perpetual so I want to be able to meet strain-specific needs, hence separate setups for each light. Recirc would be easiest to do: a res each under DIY tables pumping to drip halos and runoff back to res. DTW would be trickier given my space but I'm willing to look at design solutions to see what works for me.

Look up Rootmaker pots - the function is very specific to their injection molded shape and anything put between the pot and the media will disrupt.

Click to expand...

I understand the purpose of the pots
I dont understand using them for veg
in a E&F where the roots are gonna explode out of them
I would not use them .....or use them throughout as in running in the final pot and never up potting

I would say if you are gonna use recirc then just use hydroton
but if you are talking this round

set a 5 gal bucket underneath the drain
and run the drip system just until it barely starts to drip out the bottom and then stop

I'm seeing lots of people advising against recirc with coco due to its ability to hold on to things like Mg and K and triggering lockout, but my current results in veg E&F - effectively a recirc - suggest otherwise. Res EC and pH is stable all week. I know i'm not alone with this success and some people are doing it in top drip too.

Can drip really behave so differently to flooding, all other things being equal? (running recirc, stable nutes, regular res changes etc). I'd like to believe a low EC drip recirc would keep the media well flushed, and of course I would still do weekly res changes to reset nute ratios.

There's no worry of clogging lines as the coco fibers do not leach out of the smart pots or brown the res: again I know this from my E&F coco veg. Starting with clean coco helps too.

Not trying to square peg a round hole here, just trying to find the best system for my space. For an effective DTW I would need double the number of pumps and reservoirs for every table and I just don't have the room for that.

Your issues with roots growing through your fabric pots is a result of ebb n flood with an inappropriate container. Fabric pots should be top fed.

Ebb n flood is fine, but as you've already noticed you'll likely want a hard sided container.

ruwtz said:

I'm seeing lots of people advising against recirc with coco due to its ability to hold on to things like Mg and K and triggering lockout, but my current results in veg E&F - effectively a recirc - suggest otherwise. Res EC and pH is stable all week. I know i'm not alone with this success and some people are doing it in top drip too.

Can drip really behave so differently to flooding, all other things being equal? (running recirc, stable nutes, regular res changes etc). I'd like to believe a low EC drip recirc would keep the media well flushed, and of course I would still do weekly res changes to reset nute ratios.

There's no worry of clogging lines as the coco fibers do not leach out of the smart pots or brown the res: again I know this from my E&F coco veg. Starting with clean coco helps too.

Not trying to square peg a round hole here, just trying to find the best system for my space. For an effective DTW I would need double the number of pumps and reservoirs for every table and I just don't have the room for that.

Click to expand...

top drip recirc should be perfectly fine
however I am not sure why you would need the extra pumps for DTW
you would just route the drain to a holding tank or out to the outdoor garden or whatever.....

I am not sure how high your tables are off the ground but it can be done

but in the same manner.....if you time your feeds properly .....to exude as little drain as possible while still maintaining some drain out the pot the plants will be fine....you just dial the feed back a little....and you can flush every few weeks.....per transition.......phase 1 bloom....phase 2 building....phase 3 ripening.......you flush at each interval you will be perfectly fine
when I say flushing...I mean....run enough solution through the pot to = that of the pot size...in drainage per pot

I am not sure how large your tables in flower are but.....you could get 2 27 gal totes and a 2" uniseal and a 2" piece of PVC and connect the 2 together...effectively making a 50 gal res low pro....for about $25 and still run Flood and Drain

Parts list
Costco 27 gal totes $7.00 x2
Amazon 2" uniseal 6.88
Home Depot 2" pvc 3.95 20ft

Wisher2 said:

top drip recirc should be perfectly fine
however I am not sure why you would need the extra pumps for DTW
you would just route the drain to a holding tank or out to the outdoor garden or whatever.....

I am not sure how high your tables are off the ground but it can be done

but in the same manner.....if you time your feeds properly .....to exude as little drain as possible while still maintaining some drain out the pot the plants will be fine....you just dial the feed back a little....and you can flush every few weeks.....per transition.......phase 1 bloom....phase 2 building....phase 3 ripening.......you flush at each interval you will be perfectly fine
when I say flushing...I mean....run enough solution through the pot to = that of the pot size...in drainage per pot

I am not sure how large your tables in flower are but.....you could get 2 27 gal totes and a 2' unusual and a 2' piece of PVC and connect the 2 together...effectively making a 50 gal res low pro....for about $25 and still run Flood and Drain

Parts list
Costco 27 gal totes $7.00 x2
Amazon 2" uniseal 6.88
Home Depot 2" pvc 3.95 20ft

Click to expand...

3x4ft Tables are very low, like 10" off the ground to give myself plenty of headroom for growth and clearance for DE lights in a room with 10ft ceilings, hence I can't gravity drain anywhere useful so pumps would be needed to move DTW. I'm not interested in having to manually move water collection several times daily: I need to automate and get on with life.

Drip will require smaller res than E&F, which is ideal since I want a res per light (4) in a 9x12ft room, and if I can find the most suitable low profile totes I can fit one under each table. This is why I prefer recirc - at least in theory - and i'm glad you think this can work.

Similarly I have no room for a holding tank: I have a drum for dehu reclaim set up and thats about it, leaving myself a 1ft wide path for me to move about.

I agree that I will need to get the timing and quantity of feeds exactly right for this to work, whether as recirc or DTW with very little runoff. Keeping EC low, resetting regularly and periodic flushes will be key, I think.

ttystikk said:

Your issues with roots growing through your fabric pots is a result of ebb n flood with an inappropriate container. Fabric pots should be top fed.

Ebb n flood is fine, but as you've already noticed you'll likely want a hard sided container.

Click to expand...

Agreed, hence why i'm weighing up other potting options for vegging. I need holes for E&F to reach the coco whilst keeping it from spilling out. The Rootmaker pots look good for this and I think i'm sold on their claim to promote lateral and non-circling root development.

At the end of the day all pots need holes for drainage and so with E&F setup i'm inevitably going to get roots on the table whatever pot I choose. I think I can manage roots out of 4 holes instead of growing right into fabric.

I think I can avoid much of this vertical root growth by giving the plant all the potted medium so roots can develop in all directions. This first run is still carrying the original rockwool blocks and has just a small layer of coco in 2gal pots: not a lot of room for roots so they have spilled everywhere.

Also remember I have vegged much longer than I had planned due to setbacks / getting this brand new room right. Obviously the plan is to veg quicker and healthier with future runs!

ruwtz said:

3x4ft Tables are very low, like 10" off the ground to give myself plenty of headroom for growth and clearance for DE lights in a room with 10ft ceilings, hence I can't gravity drain anywhere useful so pumps would be needed to move DTW. I'm not interested in having to manually move water collection several times daily: I need to automate and get on with life.

Drip will require smaller res than E&F, which is ideal since I want a res per light (4) in a 9x12ft room, and if I can find the most suitable low profile totes I can fit one under each table. This is why I prefer recirc - at least in theory - and i'm glad you think this can work.

Similarly I have no room for a holding tank: I have a drum for dehu reclaim set up and thats about it, leaving myself a 1ft wide path for me to move about.

I agree that I will need to get the timing and quantity of feeds exactly right for this to work, whether as recirc or DTW with very little runoff. Keeping EC low, resetting regularly and periodic flushes will be key, I think.



Agreed, hence why i'm weighing up other potting options for vegging. I need holes for E&F to reach the coco whilst keeping it from spilling out. The Rootmaker pots look good for this and I think i'm sold on their claim to promote lateral and non-circling root development.

At the end of the day all pots need holes for drainage and so with E&F setup i'm inevitably going to get roots on the table whatever pot I choose. I think I can manage roots out of 4 holes instead of growing right into fabric.

I think I can avoid much of this vertical root growth by giving the plant all the potted medium so roots can develop in all directions. This first run is still carrying the original rockwool blocks and has just a small layer of coco in 2gal pots: not a lot of room for roots so they have spilled everywhere.

Also remember I have vegged much longer than I had planned due to setbacks / getting this brand new room right. Obviously the plan is to veg quicker and healthier with future runs!

Click to expand...

for ebb and flow....all you need is standard pots with standard holes
and you flood for the correct time
in coco you can frow huge trees in super small pots
I would run 1 gal square pots and fit as many as I can in the table

with a 3x4 table a 20 gal tote will work perfectly

the setup
set tote in front of table where drain will be
use 1 3/4" x1/2" bulk head fitting
place the bulkhead near the bottom of the tote....on the outside screw into the bulkhead an 1/2" nipple supplied by pump
at the top of the tote drill a 1/2" hole and run your tubingfrom fill through tote connected to pump
run drain to bulkhead nipple
done
now you have a flood and drain
I will take pictures to show what I am talking about

I suggest that in the future....if you want to run recirc
use hydroton and start from the beginning
switch everyrhing over and run a constant feed recirc

I am also aware that you are shooting for larger plants
but If you are not held back by plant count
I suggest sea of green
I find it much easier to manage and perpetuate
you can get massive yields of many small plants the same as a few larger plants
the thing I like is that you have no larf and no loli popping as you will be getting single large colas

Wisher2 said:

View attachment 3797721 View attachment 3797722 View attachment 3797723 View attachment 3797724 View attachment 3797725 View attachment 3797726 View attachment 3797729
I suggest that in the future....if you want to run recirc
use hydroton and start from the beginning
switch everyrhing over and run a constant feed recirc

I am also aware that you are shooting for larger plants
but If you are not held back by plant count
I suggest sea of green
I find it much easier to manage and perpetuate
you can get massive yields of many small plants the same as a few larger plants
the thing I like is that you have no larf and no loli popping as you will be getting single large colas

Click to expand...

Sweet, thanks for sharing!

The problem I have running E&F in flower is my tables have been built with 3.5" sides from 2x4 boards, so my 7gal pots (even 5gal if I downsized) wouldn't feed evenly through the medium - I bet they're easily 10" tall. I know coco wicks up but then I just know i'll get salt buildup in the top few inches.

I think drip suits my tables both in height and the low profile sides.

Based on this, together with simplicity and cost, I think i'm going with this. If it doesn't work out its not a big step to convert to E&F. No so straightforward the other way around, methinks.

Anyways, today's project is scrog nets: I'm threading string through PVC pipe and adding weights so I can suspend it rather than building up from the ground/table to win me floor space.

Weaving the string taught under and over to create a net is taking ages! Building 4 of these and hanging with zinc chain and ratchets.

I am considering using the drilled holes for string as my CO2 delivery manifold also: straight to the leaves with a simple run of 1/4" hose.

ruwtz said:

Sweet, thanks for sharing!

The problem I have running E&F in flower is my tables have been built with 3.5" sides from 2x4 boards, so my 7gal pots (even 5gal if I downsized) wouldn't feed evenly through the medium - I bet they're easily 10" tall. I know coco wicks up but then I just know i'll get salt buildup in the top few inches.

I think drip suits my tables both in height and the low profile sides.

Based on this, together with simplicity and cost, I think i'm going with this. If it doesn't work out its not a big step to convert to E&F. No so straightforward the other way around, methinks.

Anyways, today's project is scrog nets: I'm threading string through PVC pipe and adding weights so I can suspend it rather than building up from the ground/table to win me floor space.

Weaving the string taught under and over to create a net is taking ages! Building 4 of these and hanging with zinc chain and ratchets.

I am considering using the drilled holes for string as my CO2 delivery manifold also: straight to the leaves with a simple run of 1/4" hose.

View attachment 3797764

Click to expand...

looks good

as for the wicking
15 min floods 3 times a day

you will have no problems

and no salt buildup

there are many whom run Ebb and Flow
who dont even change the res....the entire bloom cycle
and have amazing results

I know alot of what is suggested goes completey against the norm or rational
especially going from a dirt grower to hydro

and there is so much shit people talk about and nitpick.....usually for the sake of argument

hell I know people that treat there coco like soil....with no runoff and run perfectly fine

Dehu is up!

Got things going in flower today and flipped the Gorilla Glue and 24K Gold.

Total of 10 girls potted up, some in 7gal that I already had and the rest in 5gal as i've decided that size fits my table better. All include the 2gal fabric pots I couldn't get off the roots, and the original rockwool blocks they were started in. What a random mess of mediums and containers but hey, we're here and it seems to be working so far.



Went with drip DTW in the end. Each table fed from a 27gal res, currently filling from the RO filter. Built my own halos from 1/4" hose and running off 1/2" hose manifold.

Pic below shows one of the halos in a bucket so I can measure flow rate before setting up the pump timer. Aiming to match the 3 feeds per day I was running in veg and build up from there.



I haven't finished table drainage yet, and currently have a tray for collection until I can decide how I'm going to do this. As you can see my tables are just 10" off the ground so I might just go with some under-the-bed low profile totes to collect and sump away as necessary. Probably the best I can hope for with such limited space and no plumbing.



Here you can see two of the 750 Gavitas up and running, two scrogs pulleyed off the ceiling, and then a 32gal trash can for dehu reclaim. Will be building a stool for this so it can tuck neatly over the top of my table reservoirs and out of the way.

This is half the room set up and running. Will give this a month to assess / get right / fuck up before finishing the other half and introducing two more strains right next to these.

The pump drips 700ml per plant per minute, so 2 mins produces just over one third of a gallon.

I've set a timer for 3 feeds of two mins per day during lights-on, giving each plant a gallon in a day. We'll have to see if that's too much or too little.

I've matched the veg feed of 1.0EC @ pH5.6, and the water is cool at 69F. GH trio is balanced 1-1-1 and I've added CaMg, Silica and Hydroguard.

Each table has a layer of the giant style hydroton to aid drainage.

Plants are looking a little droopy but just a little shock from transplanting.

AC and dehu running have been running all day: temps 80F and humidity low 40's. neither is working particularly hard to hold this and lights are cooler than expected. I will be checking the min and max recordings of each when I head in tmrw morning.

Gavita controller is dialed back to 80% power (600w equivalent) and 48" from canopy. Coverage is good and I will bring power up to 100% gradually over the first week. As I understand it with these lights they are best used when kept at a fixed height rather than moving with the canopy, so at over 6ft that's ample headroom to the ceiling.

Putting these updates here as much for my own record as your amusement... if you're even amused.

FLOWER

- - - Room temps 77F, canopy 80F, RH mid 40's but elsewhere in room reads 36%, so need to play with this Quest 105 dehu as the analogue control dial has uselessly vague labels such as 'humid' and 'drier'. Runs quiet and cool though.

- - - Running three 2 minute feeds and one 4 minute feed immediately at lights on: 1.0EC, pH5.5, 69F res temps.

- - - Each table of 5 plants is taking around 2gal runoff per day under this new drip system, and it measures 1.2EC so I know some flushing is going on. Its also very slightly cloudy which I presume is the myco additive.

- - - Lowered Gavitas to 36" from canopy and kept at 80% power for a few days as they bed in.

- - - Started scrogging the girls and within a couple of hours the top shoots were pointing upwards.

- - - I still think they may be slightly overfed: some dark tips, clawing, soft stems, waxy edges, papery leaves... all signs of heavy N as I understand it so will back this off a little.

- - - Also have some twisted tips on new growth, and some cupping of serrated edges on the top shoots which I presume was heat or light stress from veg.


VEG - 12 plants @ 50 days old

- - - Temps 75F, humidity mid %50's

- - - 5 mature Blackjack: short and bushy, lots of new shoots at nodes up and down the branches which I prune together with trying to keep the lower third tidy.

5 mature Larry OG: tall and lanky and few but big fan leaves. Looking Ca/Mg def in lower leaves but must be lockout from something else as I run plenty CalMag and some epsom too. Larry's seem overall hungrier than the Blackjack which is tough to address as they share the same flood table. May look at a foliar.

- - - Roots on both strains are exploding into the table and I keep scooping the hydroton over to protect them until I choose to pot up. I want these to stay in veg for another month to establish my perpetual setup so will be cutting big clones in a week or so to keep them under control.

- - - Also running two single seeds, one of Girl Scout Cookies and Chronic x NY Diesel. Freebies so why not and Both are doing really nicely, lots of healthy foliage and quick growth. They obviously have the benefit of everything i've learned through mistakes with the older girls. Will be cloning until I have a solid run of each.


ROOTED CLONES - cuttings @ 15 days

- - - Temps 77F, humidity low %50's as it shares room with veg and right over the dehu, so I mist occasionally.

- - - Translucent mucus blobs seen at slits in the cups, similar if not identical to what I was seeing in the veg res. Lots of new growth, no wilting etc. No smell, no pH swing or EC drop. Possibly Hydroguard multiplying?? Also the tops of my rooter plugs are greasy to the touch, no green algae forming.

- - - Cut down a couple of poor developers for a look at the roots, which looked healthy and white and well developed even on these weak plants. No sign of root rot or discoloration, but some possibly a little translucent?? - see pics of two plants removed. Not running any bennies or myco in these and currently reconsidering this.

I have tried and tried to run a sterile E&F res without bennies / additives / sterilizing agents, but it just hasn't worked. Something isn't right that permits one variety of gunk or another to return.

- - - I cut out airstones and the white/translucent mucus floaties were abundant. Possible brown algae cyanobacteria.

- - - I cut out the Hydroguard to see if this was in fact the cause of said mucus multiplying.

- - - The mucus floaties are gone but this time around I have a brown algae type gunk forming small floaties and forming around the hoses and pump. It is not slimy and no odor. Does not affect pH or EC levels. This in a non-aerated, non-Hydroguard "sterile" res. I can see my roots on the table so I know they are clean and white and robust, except where they are hitting light/low humidity and drying back/browning. No signs of root rot as far as I can see.

I very much want to reintroduce Hydroguard as I know it is a great product and has worked well so far, and so this bacteria additive means I don't want to cancel it out with chlorine or H2o2.

I am now considering a tea brew of more bennies and trichoderma, added to the res every 48hrs, to see if we can defeat this scourge of whatever whilst at the same time boosting root health and nute availability.

@Wisher2 I know you have previously refuted the benefit of microbes in this kind of setup but there are lots of people having great success with it in coco/hydro provided the populations are established via brewing before adding As a top feed (so as not to feed any pathogens in the res), and by replenishing populations on a regular basis (every 48hrs etc).

what is the temperature outside of the shed.. out of curiosity

Dimensional Entity said:

what is the temperature outside of the shed.. out of curiosity

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Good question, and it obviously does affect my room conditions despite AC, dehu, insulation etc.

I get summer highs of 100F+, regularly 85-90F even now into the fall. Winters might come down to 60-65F, and hardly ever a frost. Summer humidity anywhere between 40-60%.

I monitor outdoor and indoor temps daily, reading from various points in the room. Hot days will push inside temps by 2-5 degrees and I shift the AC as necessary. Running fairly well sealed (won't claim 100%, few can), it stays warm at night with no intake venting so temps are constant around the clock.

I have no way of programming my mini split for lights-out temp differential, and i'm not able to manually lower cooling every single day so I just live with the steady temps. Seems fine.

Veg = 75F, RH50-55%
Flower = 78F, RH47-53%

My curiosity in VPD has been piqued and since I bought a laser thermometer i've started recording various leaf temps and taking daily averages. Average VPD in veg this week = 12, flower = 11.9, so pretty standard. I hear 8-10* is ideal so I guess i'm not far off, although I am keen to know how others apply VPD in their gardens.

*none of my measurements were within this range

I've also adjusted my watering cycle in flower after the Gorilla Glue had gone without a feed for half a day (hose had popped off the pump) and were actually looking perkier than the 24K Gold girls right next to them on a separate res. I may have started overwatering with this drip system, together with lots of runoff emptying those new reservoirs real fast.

I am now running 2mins at lights-on, then three feeds of 1min until lights-off, giving each plant .925gal in total per day. With 10 plants that will run down these 27gal totes (filled to 20gal) in two days. I'm away next weekend for 3 days so this really is not ideal!

They are all mature so I think 1gal/day is fine and I can work towards optimum.

I'm going to see about runoff quantity over the next couple of days to see if i'm still overwatering and simply throwing away water and nutes unnecessarily. I can't lower the watering quantity much more without dropping a feed or fitting flow-regulating drippers/misters (currently I'm running DIY halos with simple drilled holes in the 1/4" tubing running into the coco). The other option would be downsizing the pump power to deliver less in these early stages.

Feed is 1.0EC / pH5.5/5.6, transition ratios.

I could of course switch to recirc, but thats not without its downsides, most notably nute ratios falling out quickly. If anyone is running coco drip recirc i'd love to hear from you.

Also, as anticipated, floor space is at a premium and working in there is challenging. Will be building out some kind of rack on casters for the reservoirs so I can move them as necessary, and may also put a hose bibb on the dehu reclaim so I can collect as needed and store it at height.

So many tweaks, so little time in a day...