Sativied's Picture Journal

Interesting article.

your gona have to give up the red one!!!
satived i aint mad at you lolz you got some straight mad skills..im a fan..

18 years ago, shortly after I quit at a coffeeshop and the menu rarely changed, a friend I used to hang with in coffeeshops bought Afghani in another city. It smelled extremely fuel-like, not everyone actually liked it. Apart from haze and orange there wasn't a whole lot of variation taste-wise so it was a weird one. It left a strong taste on my lips. We smoked that for about half a year till it was no longer available. Afghani was, but not that pheno. "Afghaan" was (still is in many shops) the blackest darkest soft hash available, cheap stuff that smokes like tar. Hash you don't heat up before crumbling but role into thin threads. Many shops then never sold afghani so thought we were idiots/trolls for asking for afghani 'weed', instead of hash...

Anyway, I found out recently it was likely a skunk x afghani cross and not a pure afghani. Which...... makes me wonder if I could recreate it. That would be like time traveling. I can buy afghani seeds, but would still have to hunt and have a shit load of luck to find a similar pheno, if even possible.

Afghani also happens to be one of the few strains people grow outdoors in NL, because of it's short flowering time, but also because it despite our crappy outdoor season creates fairly dense buds. Afghani is in fact for many many crosses, hybrids, strains and pollen chucks out there the strain that sourced chunky calyxes. It's like the opposite of haze, short flowering, not a lot of taste, indica, chunky calyxes.

Tried to fix this HPS shot a little (sensi's afghani grown by someone 5 years ago). Beautiful calyx to leaf ratio.


The largest dutch grow forum goes back 11 years, going through some old grow journals... Couple of other popular oldies I surprisingly didn't encounter in my lineage research earlier.

NLX = clone only (chuck) from Northern Light x White Widow.
K2 = White Widow x Hindu Kush (nirvana, easy big yielder for beginners).
Santa Maria = (SM clone x (Silver Pearl x Mex Haze). From No Mercy (the name makes so much sense now... took me only 8 years to figure that one out....). Now at F8 (it's actually a back cross), 13 times cup winner.
The SM clone:
"Santa Maria is a variety of marijuana stemming from the Brazilian Amazon where it has been used in a spiritual context. The distribution in Holland of the real Santa Maria clones was done by the former Highlife-magazine chief editor, Bernt Gundersen, because he was bringing his new `found` clones of a strain that is worldwide known by now... to No Mercy Supply... to Cees."

And look at this.... SpeesCees is apparently one of the few breeders who 'gets' F1 hybrids.
"Don't make a mistake about a well grown F1 hybrid. Often those are the plants with exceptional vigor, the positive result of a cross of two heavily inbred and selected varieties. In other words: F6 x F6 = F1 hybrid.

Sometimes it seems like they received a blood transfusion. There's a good reason why so many F1 hybrids are sold in the commercial flower and vegetable seed business. Double inbreeding, selecting and then crossing after 6-7 generations remains the most succesful formula up to this day. Naturally the parents of that F1 seed remain in the seed bank because breeding from F1 hybrid seed creates a mixture of all kind of things; they are not stable and all sorts of progenitors may show up. From which a seed bank would benefit of course."

I may have mentioned this before, SpeesCees is a bit unnuanced sometimes. That F6 can be F4 or F8 as well, depends on what was crossed initially and the genetic make up of the selected plants. Either way, it's 'naturally" impossible to release dozens of quality hybrids per year... unless you "borrow" someone else stable lines, or just screw the quality part and chuck together unstable lines.

Silver Pearl... now there's a name I haven't heard for a while. Early Pearl x Skunk #1 x Northern Lights, by Sensi. Silver Pearl is a parent of another well known coffeeshop classic bred by Speescees, called Snow White.

The main reason No Mercy isn't that well known and as popular as some others is cause, ironically, he's a real breeder, not in it for the money. He's also one of THE pioneers when it comes to feminized seeds and is the 12/12-from-seed-evangelist.
"We don't have big glossy brochures, we don't wear company clothing, we hardly give away anything for free, we don't drive flashy cars... but we are the cheapest, hand out reliable information and guarantee our quality."

None of the above are recommendations... just contemplating my next project, looking for unspoiled germplasm. And no that won't be from speescees gear even though he does have some nice stuff.

Sativied said:

18 years ago, shortly after I quit at a coffeeshop and the menu rarely changed, a friend I used to hang with in coffeeshops bought Afghani in another city. It smelled extremely fuel-like, not everyone actually liked it. Apart from haze and orange there wasn't a whole lot of variation taste-wise so it was a weird one. It left a strong taste on my lips. We smoked that for about half a year till it was no longer available. Afghani was, but not that pheno. "Afghaan" was (still is in many shops) the blackest darkest soft hash available, cheap stuff that smokes like tar. Hash you don't heat up before crumbling but role into thin threads. Many shops then never sold afghani so thought we were idiots/trolls for asking for afghani 'weed', instead of hash...

Anyway, I found out recently it was likely a skunk x afghani cross and not a pure afghani. Which...... makes me wonder if I could recreate it. That would be like time traveling. I can buy afghani seeds, but would still have to hunt and have a shit load of luck to find a similar pheno, if even possible.

Afghani also happens to be one of the few strains people grow outdoors in NL, because of it's short flowering time, but also because it despite our crappy outdoor season creates fairly dense buds. Afghani is in fact for many many crosses, hybrids, strains and pollen chucks out there the strain that sourced chunky calyxes. It's like the opposite of haze, short flowering, not a lot of taste, indica, chunky calyxes.

Tried to fix this HPS shot a little (sensi's afghani grown by someone 5 years ago). Beautiful calyx to leaf ratio.
View attachment 3385798

The largest dutch grow forum goes back 11 years, going through some old grow journals... Couple of other popular oldies I surprisingly didn't encounter in my lineage research earlier.

NLX = clone only (chuck) from Northern Light x White Widow.
K2 = White Widow x Hindu Kush (nirvana, easy big yielder for beginners).
Santa Maria = (SM clone x (Silver Pearl x Mex Haze). From No Mercy (the name makes so much sense now... took me only 8 years to figure that one out....). Now at F8 (it's actually a back cross), 13 times cup winner.
The SM clone:
"Santa Maria is a variety of marijuana stemming from the Brazilian Amazon where it has been used in a spiritual context. The distribution in Holland of the real Santa Maria clones was done by the former Highlife-magazine chief editor, Bernt Gundersen, because he was bringing his new `found` clones of a strain that is worldwide known by now... to No Mercy Supply... to Cees."

And look at this.... SpeesCees is apparently one of the few breeders who 'gets' F1 hybrids.
"Don't make a mistake about a well grown F1 hybrid. Often those are the plants with exceptional vigor, the positive result of a cross of two heavily inbred and selected varieties. In other words: F6 x F6 = F1 hybrid.

Sometimes it seems like they received a blood transfusion. There's a good reason why so many F1 hybrids are sold in the commercial flower and vegetable seed business. Double inbreeding, selecting and then crossing after 6-7 generations remains the most succesful formula up to this day. Naturally the parents of that F1 seed remain in the seed bank because breeding from F1 hybrid seed creates a mixture of all kind of things; they are not stable and all sorts of progenitors may show up. From which a seed bank would benefit of course."

I may have mentioned this before, SpeesCees is a bit unnuanced sometimes. That F6 can be F4 or F8 as well, depends on what was crossed initially and the genetic make up of the selected plants. Either way, it's 'naturally" impossible to release dozens of quality hybrids per year... unless you "borrow" someone else stable lines, or just screw the quality part and chuck together unstable lines.

Silver Pearl... now there's a name I haven't heard for a while. Early Pearl x Skunk #1 x Northern Lights, by Sensi. Silver Pearl is a parent of another well known coffeeshop classic bred by Speescees, called Snow White.

The main reason No Mercy isn't that well known and as popular as some others is cause, ironically, he's a real breeder, not in it for the money. He's also one of THE pioneers when it comes to feminized seeds and is the 12/12-from-seed-evangelist.
"We don't have big glossy brochures, we don't wear company clothing, we hardly give away anything for free, we don't drive flashy cars... but we are the cheapest, hand out reliable information and guarantee our quality."

None of the above are recommendations... just contemplating my next project, looking for unspoiled germplasm. And no that won't be from speescees gear even though he does have some nice stuff.

Click to expand...

Exchanged a few emails with SpeesCees last week and I look forward to making my 1st order with him.

Correction: It was Florian that I spoke with. Same person?

I some time love to read the real deal with care and real passion the hype wins most of the time, but money only brings so many fake people and somany friends that realy aint friends greed and envy isnt to far behind its more problems realy, i do enjoy reading your journal alway, but money isnt everything.. I know that for a fact but it shure helps get the equipment you need, and the medical atention you might need as we get older it is a neccesity, i would love to spouncer your projects if i ever make any money sativied. I love this work of yours..

Fun fact addendum to above post, that fuel afghani was from this coffeeshop - notice the name...

Still exists, but now a sandwich/coffeeshop... it's on the other side of the country, don't know if they actually sell mj still, don't think so, considering selling food in a coffeeshop is not allowed. It's from the time I travelled the country for 'parties', this particular shop was open till late in the night, closed for only a couple of hours, and then opened again for the 'gabbers' (ravers) who were still awake on Sunday morning.

Hot Diggity Sog said:

Exchanged a few emails with SpeesCees last week and I look forward to making my 1st order with him.

Correction: It was Florian that I spoke with. Same person?

Click to expand...

I don't know Florian. Pretty sure Cees is Cees, or at least Kees. Speaking of dutch origins ( ) it's the possible source of "Yankees". Yankee is Jan Kees, which are two of the most common dutch names combined. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee#Dutch_origins

Anyway, that's great, which one are you going to order? The SM? I read he renamed it out of respect for the original SM. I would love to see some more of his strains being grown. The local forum is owned by Sannie and while not necessarily intentional that does create a bias.

I initially learned a lot from reading posts from a guy, atmo(sphere) (which could be Florian irl, although florian isn't a dutch name..., maybe and english representative), who helped speescees with his forum when they sort of left the main local forum. The first seeds I bought are from Speescees, his Desert Queen. One of the reason I like bringing him up (when relevant of course ) is that I personally had some bad influence on the popularity of that strain. I was one of the first to grow it in the local forums, and got hermies... I clearly stated I didn't blame him or the strain and was likely from nurture (although the healthiest plants I've grown in soil period) but hermaphobia is widely spread here so it obviously didn't help the rep of the strain

Desert queen:


The hermie at the bottom left I lollipopped (the bottom had hermie/male flowers) and flowered out to become a lovely cola with zero nanners, which in hindsight (8 years ago...) shows again it was likely nurture and not nature.







Desert Queen is based on the silver pearl, NLX, K2 I mentioned above, Mindbender (KC 2 x KC 30 x Afghani) and Sudden Death. Which probably means little to nothing to most people here, which is exactly why some may find his strains very interesting. I can't recommend the strain, not because of the hermies, but because it just didn't taste as good as I like mj to.

I picked up those seeds at his home and he showed me some of his grow op. Has tons of stories, didn't stop talking till he spent at least 10 minutes on selecting the seeds for me, with a loupe...

Knowledge is power, and every time i look thru this grow i learn more and more. Happy growin bro lookin sexy as hell i cant wait to see these girls budded out

Sativied said:

Fun fact addendum to above post, that fuel afghani was from this coffeeshop - notice the name...
View attachment 3385858
Still exists, but now a sandwich/coffeeshop... it's on the other side of the country, don't know if they actually sell mj still, don't think so, considering selling food in a coffeeshop is not allowed. It's from the time I travelled the country for 'parties', this particular shop was open till late in the night, closed for only a couple of hours, and then opened again for the 'gabbers' (ravers) who were still awake on Sunday morning.


I don't know Florian. Pretty sure Cees is Cees, or at least Kees. Speaking of dutch origins ( ) it's the possible source of "Yankees". Yankee is Jan Kees, which are two of the most common dutch names combined. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee#Dutch_origins

Anyway, that's great, which one are you going to order? The SM? I read he renamed it out of respect for the original SM. I would love to see some more of his strains being grown. The local forum is owned by Sannie and while not necessarily intentional that does create a bias.

I initially learned a lot from reading posts from a guy, atmo(sphere) (which could be Florian irl, although florian isn't a dutch name..., maybe and english representative), who helped speescees with his forum when they sort of left the main local forum. The first seeds I bought are from Speescees, his Desert Queen. One of the reason I like bringing him up (when relevant of course ) is that I personally had some bad influence on the popularity of that strain. I was one of the first to grow it in the local forums, and got hermies... I clearly stated I didn't blame him or the strain and was likely from nurture (although the healthiest plants I've grown in soil period) but hermaphobia is widely spread here so it obviously didn't help the rep of the strain

Desert queen:
View attachment 3385870

The hermie at the bottom left I lollipopped (the bottom had hermie/male flowers) and flowered out to become a lovely cola with zero nanners, which in hindsight (8 years ago...) shows again it was likely nurture and not nature.

View attachment 3385874

View attachment 3385875

View attachment 3385877

Desert Queen is based on the silver pearl, NLX, K2 I mentioned above, Mindbender (KC 2 x KC 30 x Afghani) and Sudden Death. Which probably means little to nothing to most people here, which is exactly why some may find his strains very interesting. I can't recommend the strain, not because of the hermies, but because it just didn't taste as good as I like mj to.

I picked up those seeds at his home and he showed me some of his grow op. Has tons of stories, didn't stop talking till he spent at least 10 minutes on selecting the seeds for me, with a loupe...

Click to expand...

I told Florian everything I'm doing and what I'm wanting to do and he said he thought that each strain they have would be fine but to start with No Mercy Special. I think I'm just going to order all of them. I have a new setup I'm building I'll probably unveil in my journal soon. It's something I thought of myself but then discovered that Heath Robinson invented the basic premise. Either way I'm stoked to be building it and will share more details soon. And btw Sat, my Arduino Mega 2560 board as well as whole bunch of other goodies came today which will become an integral part of the new setup.

Just checked the lineage of the No Mercy Special. Interesting. Santa Maria x (Mex haze x Victory). Speescees referred to haze as "birdshit". He was kinda right at the time, i.e. pre the many haze hybrids today. Haze was the most expensive on the menu but usually a harsh smoke. Maybe all those skunk growers needed to learn how to grow haze...

Victory is Viking x Skunk. Viking... now there's a blast from the past. Created by Wernard Bruining, not from Old Ed (and Sam the Skunkman) who he got skunk and others from. Viking is the result of crossing plant "2" with plant "10", which were in a field just a few miles from coincidentally that coffeeshop above. Viking with Skunk, you get Hollands Hope, a quarter of those result in purple plants, cross two of those, and you got Purple Power (<--- that last sentence is a quote from Wernard...). Viking, HH, and PP are classic outdoor strains here. Purple Power is what I smoked most initially. PP was cheap compared to indoor grown even though I had to pick out the calyxes from what was mostly leaves.

Picture by Wernard of Viking (afghaan indica).


Viking x Skunk (other pheno) is also Top 44, which some of you may know or have heard of. It's Top 44 because it finishes after just a little over 6 weeks flowering. Not the strongest stuff, not the highest yielder, but was very suitable for first time growers. Hard to fuck up, indoor and outdoor.

Hot Diggity Sog said:

I have a new setup I'm building I'll probably unveil in my journal soon. It's something I thought of myself but then discovered that Heath Robinson invented the basic premise. Either way I'm stoked to be building it and will share more details soon. And btw Sat, my Arduino Mega 2560 board as well as whole bunch of other goodies came today which will become an integral part of the new setup.

Click to expand...

Sounds great man. Heath is one of the two persons that brought me to reading threads at RIU (other being Earl). I got an arduino for about a year now but never ended up using it for anything more than temp and humidity. Goal was to at least use those sonar sensors to measure the level of the nutrient solution in a rez (by pointing it at a small floating surface around a small tube/cylinder to prevent it from floating away). I look forward to seeing your new setup, especially with multiple no mercy strains. I'm curious to see how, or if, they can measure up to some of the popular hybrids today.

@Hot Diggity Sog: Did I not post a pic of SM the previous time we talked about it? I remember buying some but don't know if I posted a pic.

Actually... I need to some new rolling paper, back in 30 min, going to buy some classics...

I like that whole damn post...

>>>>>"shows again it was likely nurture and not nature."

I really like this part..^^

Back to lurking

Sativied said:

@Hot Diggity Sog: Did I not post a pic of SM the previous time we talked about it? I remember buying some but don't know if I posted a pic.

Actually... I need to some new rolling paper, back in 30 min, going to buy some classics...

Click to expand...

I don't think so...we were discussing it but I don't recall any pics.

I'm going to smoke it and make some pics of the buds, but here are the spoils:



Shiva
Orange Bud
Double Dragon (another coffeeshop classic)
Northern Light
Santa Maria

SM 8 euro per gram (the small zips are 5 euro), rest 1 or 2 euro cheaper.

Basically all stuff suitable for day time smoking, stuff that won't knock you out, but also won't get you as high as for example what's in the bigger 10euro bag, Silver Haze (12 euro per gram).

The hash is "power afghani", not as sticky as I've had but it smells really pungent, hash oil, nepalese-like but with a hint of mint. Price: 5.50 (about $6) per gram. Not sure I will smoke it myself, it tends to close up my air pipe instantly.

Ok, let's start with the Santa Maria (not my best photos, table is white...)

(crumbled the bud before I took pic... oops) Hard to say with a small piece like this but great structure for crumbling.
Smell: Stronger than I expected. A bit skunky, musty in a good way.
Taste: Same. It's doesn't have something really specific. Very smooth and light smoke.
Effect: I can feel in in my arms and legs just minutes after a few tokes. Relaxed but no couch lock by any means, but certainly not weak either. Blurred peripheral vision... I'm slightly impressed.

Needless to say the effect of the following will be (even more) skewed

Orange Bud. (org. from sunny Cali). First strain I've grown indoor (when clones were still legal-ish for sale in growshops).


Feels like it could have dried a day longer out of the bag.
Smell: As if it was grown on a cow farm (which could totally be the case lol), but with an hint of sweet-sour flowers vaguely resembling an orange or tangerine. It gives me flashbacks just smelling it. Not the cow shit... I bought this a lot in the old days because 10 guilders (that's about 4.5 euro) got me 3 little nuggets each enough for a joint/stickie.
Taste: nothing special, dank.
Effect: little to nothing...

Shiva (shiva skunk, sensi seeds, NL#5 x Skunk)
... missing pic...
Typical oldskool nuggets. Little hairy but compact and tight trim. Not my thing usually because over the decades I associated it with a certain effect and taste (stoned, earthy/musty).
Smell: Hard to describe, minty-lemonish undertone in otherwise dank skunk.
Taste: Not very distinctive, skunk with spicy flowers. Rosemary? For some reason it tastes Mediterranean...
Effect: little to nothing... (I smoked these strains for years, Shiva was the good and reliable stuff back then).

Northern Light

Looks good, frosty, smells so bad (earthy, almost fungus) I'm not even going to smoke it.

Double Dragon
I'm not sure about the lineage of this one. Seeds not for sale. Bud only in certain regions. Possibly a cross of Double Dutch (Magus genetics) en Dutch Dragon (Paradise Seeds). Oldie by now though.

Bit airy so seems more, clean little nuggets though.
Smell: skunky, nothing special
Taste: skunky with - and that's very subjective - a hint of chocolate+coffee... dank caramel... not bad actually. Wouldn't mind smoking this one for a while.
Effect: clearly stronger than the above, yet similar to the Santa Maria.

I'm going to save that black stuff for a while, real couchlock material.


It's time to wash away those classics with some silver haze:


Smell: Awesome (incense-like, sweet yet spicy haze. So strong that little small bag smells up a jacket, or even a car in no time. Also used to separate crap carbon filters from the better ). Actually works excellent as incense. If you walk into a coffeeshop in NL and think damn that smells good, it's likely someone smoking silver or amnesia haze.
Taste: As if an angel is pissing on my tongue, which I then press against my palate while sucking my own saliva through it.
Effect: Creative, energetic, long lasting high.

That's from the same silver haze cut I mentioned earlier.

Now to get up and water my plants...

First is swan (#22 from F2).







Next is S-10, F3, one of the daughters of Swan above. Could have picked any. They all look the same.


The offspring from #19 sucks (only kept one female, kinda expected it). Well, relatively then. Wasn't the best in the F2 but frosty and fast so was worth a try. Like the above, but always seems sad, drowned, only one I potted up to larger pot, still unhappy.

Groupshot:

Color is off, plant right in front is the next one...

Now... #4 of the F2 was in hempy, small, so didn't get a great look of the structure. Very frosty and sweeter than the rest so had to run a few of those too. The beauty I posted a couple of times, the one I suggested killing early on lol.. is offspring of #4.



Flat leaves. Super solid rock hard stems, most frosty, best color. Note the leaflet in the bottom right of the pic, it's building trichs up to the tip. The smell... it's perfect. The piney from the chunk, but sweeter. The whole downside of the chunk I used is that it was too pungent even during veg. That piney needs to be 'light', fruity, not woody (like the F1 was mostly).

Now the bad news... I only flowered 4 of the #4 line, expected the Swan line to be the one (which has plenty of good candidates though). The other female is similar, and apart from one hollow stem I found two matching males. The whole point of growing out a few of the non-swan lines is to see if I'm missing out on something and should go back... which is exactly what I'm going to do. Popped 12 more seeds from the #4 line (F3) to see if I can find more like these and can possibly cross many-to-many. Will keep'm small and probably put them with the rest.

In different soil and different nutes... cause Canna sucks, at least in combination with the soil I use. Canna Terra is weak (those light tips took "effort") and does not seem to contain any Calcium. I still have a small bottle of Biogreen Calgel (N, Ca, Mg) which will hopefully do the trick. Definitely going back to hydro next run. Got to respect those solo cup growers, I need at least 4 gallon or so per plant.

Seeded pre-flowers... whatever happens, there's always those

19-2:


It always has this palmtree like appearance whether it's dry or wet or cold or warm, 24/7. And partly why I didn't pollinate it... oops...


Very happy with their transformation to sativa-dom leaves again. They are all swans lol...



Frosty too...


^^ #4-line, the one I popped 12 new seeds of. Actually a tad shorter leaflet but she's still my favorite.

This is Swan progeny:
The trichs lump together at the edges of that fan in the center. ^



Swan (f2), revegged monstercrop sort of thing... As still slightly visible at the bottom, the main stems were that purple too.



Did pollinate this one of course, but I'm starting to wonder if I should have just pollinated the entire thing... some know dutch seed banks stopped selling to.... drumroll... dutch growers. (growshop law...). I'm thinking with all this anti-cannabis crap I may have to start distributing seeds freely. Pretty sure there's no law against that yet. Else I'll paint them individually with something suitable and put them inside a little chocolate bunny... how's that for stealth shipping.

Last one is the palm I didn't pollinate... It doesn't have any small branches I can reveg... and it's offspring from F2-19. Meaning both line 4, 19, and swan offspring have great plants. S seems to flower slower, may become larger eventually but I like line 4 most. I only got 2 of line 19, and I'm kind of lost now... The backcross to swan is sort of an back up option, but in just 4 plants that are offspring from swan's sisters I found two plants that seem superior to swan. I already popped 12 of the #4 line, one in pic below about 12 days old, but now I'm really wondering if I should pop more from #19 too... wish I had way more space.

A hard part is really to continue focussing on the qualitative traits I want to breed true while ignoring the urge to select for quantitative traits, the most frosty, the highest yielder, the faster flowering etc. The thing is there is always one or more of those and especially with low plant counts in closet breeding that seemingly best plant is not the best in terms of geno or even phenotypes.

At this point the goal is to create F4 on the #4 line (from the current #4 plant or a better or multiple in the new batch) and have a more uniform taste/smell. That F4 I'll run in a sog maybe 16, plants, and put the best with the best for one generation, or two IF I notice a too large difference in frostiness and yield. If it's not stable enough by then I might go back again. Maybe put some of #19 outside...

Sativied said:

View attachment 3390400 View attachment 3390391

View attachment 3390390
. wish I had way more space.

View attachment 3390410

Click to expand...

dont we all? >

lookin FRAWWWSTAYYY!!!! lol
how is the uniformity of the F3 compared to the F2? still pretty variable?

bf80255 said:

how is the uniformity of the F3 compared to the F2? still pretty variable?

Click to expand...

I'm rather surprised with their uniformity so far honestly, which is why I don't want to move forward to F4 without growing more F3. There's some variation between the lines but I think a beginner would - at this point - only recognize two 'phenos'. Too soon to tell of course but I'm genuinely surprised.

I cannot tell the Swan's offspring apart except for a slight variation in smell (dank dark pine vs light fruity pine) and size (some age difference so means little). I think they will yield less or need longer than the others. Not ideal either way for my goals. Also not too happy with the S males.

I've only flowered four of the #19 and #4 line, 2 males and 2 females each. The plants from #4 are nearly identical, BUT are a selection from 8 or so initially so doesn't mean anything. I'm vegging 11 of line #4 now to get a better look.

#19 line is a special case, it's based on a female that had nutrient issues during/after transition. Nothing major but was in my tubes and that never happened before. She was however also the frostiest and fastest flowering. Her offspring was the first to tell me Canna Terra contains no Ca, but are now the healthiest green and frostiest.

Except for the swan itself, but she's over 6 months old so very mature.

The reason I'm going to check out line #4 more first is because I think it will be for several reasons a better partner for the hybrid I want to create.

Good chance that in a few weeks I'll change my mind again once I get a better idea of bud structure.

@Sativied

You rock.

That is all!

~a fungi