"Thats too bad"?? - Five sailors injured, 10 missing after U.S. Navy destroyer collides with a merch

greg nr

greg nr

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Would one need both AIS and MARPA or is one or the other sufficient? What's the advantage to both?
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They are different tools. AIS transmits information about a ship over VHF frequencies; things like name, cargo, heading, speed, etc. It will also calculate closest point of approach between the transmitter (them) and receiver (you). I can watch commercial traffic from 20 miles away some days.

MARPA is based on your RADAR unit. It can track a specific return and give you similar info to AIS like heading, speed, cpa, etc. RADAR can get pretty useless if there are a lot of large ships close by however. The reflections are so strong and come from so many directions the screen can white out and you can't tell what is where.

I have to believe though that the Navy uses very good radars (multiple units on multiple bands) and the crew knows how to use them. The unit I have is consumer grade. But I can still see and track a container ship.

My guess is they thought they could cut in front of the freighter and someone didn't pay attention to how long their ship (destroyer) was. They knew where the freighter was. They just got a case of testosterone and pulled a redneck turn. Think of it like some yahoo taking an exit from the middle lane with a truck a few feet behind them in the right lane going slightly faster. If you have a car, you might make it, pull a trailer and woops.

I've seen it before where I thought I could pass in front of another vessel but misjudged it's speed and had to correct to pass behind or speed way up to clear the boat safely. But my boat is short and I can change course easily. I don't have 300 feet of boat behind the wheel. It's not something I need to think a lot about.
 
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dstroy

dstroy

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
They are different tools. AIS transmits information about a ship over VHF frequencies; things like name, cargo, heading, speed, etc. It will also calculate closest point of approach between the transmitter (them) and receiver (you). I can watch commercial traffic from 20 miles away some days.

MARPA is based on your RADAR unit. It can track a specific return and give you similar info to AIS like heading, speed, cpa, etc. RADAR can get pretty useless if there are a lot of large ships close by however. The reflections are so strong and come from so many directions the screen can white out and you can't tell what is where.

I have to believe though that the Navy uses very good radars (multiple units on multiple bands) and the crew knows how to use them. The unit I have is consumer grade. But I can still see and track a container ship.

My guess is they thought they could cut in front of the freighter and someone didn't pay attention to how long their ship (destroyer) was. They knew where the freighter was. They just got a case of testosterone and pulled a redneck turn. Think of it like some yahoo taking an exit from the middle lane with a truck a few feet behind them in the right lane going slightly faster. If you have a car, you might make it, pull a trailer and woops.

I've seen it before where I thought I could pass in front of another vessel but misjudged it's speed and had to correct to pass behind or speed way up to clear the boat safely. But my boat is short and I can change course easily. I don't have 300 feet of boat behind the wheel. It's not something I need to think a lot about.
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Yeah, the two main navigation radars are the sps 67 and the sps 73 which are good commercial units. They've got good clutter rejection and don't tend to get saturated.

I don't think that they were trying to maneuver unsafely on purpose because that's a good way to get everyone fired, like career ending for being reckless.

The OOD on a destroyer is made to memorize the rules of the road and abide by them, but they are junior officers with less than 8 years in the navy a lot of the time. Only for certain operations is the entire bridge watchteam manned up. Usually it just consists of the OOD, JOOD, BMOW, helm, bright bridge, and the lookouts. The nav shack is up and a part of the bridge so nav is up there a lot along with the quartermasters.
 
greg nr

greg nr

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Considering it's exactly the same class of ship that was involved last time and it's a very similar (even suspiciously so) incident, I think the safe bet is that they'll find those 'missing' sailors in the same place they found them last time; in flooded sleeping quarters below the waterline.

I don't wish that to be the case, certainly- it would be wonderful if they were found alive, but I fear that's unlikely.

Once is an anomaly and twice is a coincidence. Is there some kind of blind spot with this class of ship, either in terms of the electronics suite getting confused with a target so close or perhaps an operations or procedural issue where no one is watching home plate?

I think we'll be hearing about a safety stand down soon.
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You called it:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/20/asia/us-navy-destroyer-collision-singapore/index.html

Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson is expected to order a one-day pause in operations "to ensure we are taking all appropriate immediate measures to enhance the Navy's safe and effective operation around the world," according to a US Defense official and an advanced copy of Richardson's statement obtained by CNN.
The stand-down will take place over the next couple of weeks, at the discretion of individual commands, the defense official said.''

This will take a little more than buffing: I wonder if it's repairable?

 
SneekyNinja

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
You called it:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/20/asia/us-navy-destroyer-collision-singapore/index.html

Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson is expected to order a one-day pause in operations "to ensure we are taking all appropriate immediate measures to enhance the Navy's safe and effective operation around the world," according to a US Defense official and an advanced copy of Richardson's statement obtained by CNN.
The stand-down will take place over the next couple of weeks, at the discretion of individual commands, the defense official said.''

This will take a little more than buffing: I wonder if it's repairable?

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Dats rekt.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
dstroy said:
I just saw a picture of the damage, where it's located.

Directly above the damage is the torpedo magazine, and below it is the armory. Below the armory is overflow berthing. Tool issue is a little bit more forward of the armory.

Across the passageway from tool issue is ship's laundry, where a couple people are working pretty much around the clock.

Unless they were doing shit with the torpedoes or checking mag temps or something there wouldn't have been anyone in the torp mag.

There was almost certainly someone in the armory, ships laundry, and maybe tool issue.

Hopefully no one was in overflow berthing, they usually put tech reps, visitors, and sometimes new crew has to stay down there until a rack becomes available.
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You served on an Ashleigh Burke class?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
dstroy said:
Yeah, the two main navigation radars are the sps 67 and the sps 73 which are good commercial units. They've got good clutter rejection and don't tend to get saturated.

I don't think that they were trying to maneuver unsafely on purpose because that's a good way to get everyone fired, like career ending for being reckless.

The OOD on a destroyer is made to memorize the rules of the road and abide by them, but they are junior officers with less than 8 years in the navy a lot of the time. Only for certain operations is the entire bridge watchteam manned up. Usually it just consists of the OOD, JOOD, BMOW, helm, bright bridge, and the lookouts. The nav shack is up and a part of the bridge so nav is up there a lot along with the quartermasters.
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Could use a glossary for the alphabet soup.

There are going to be more than a few careers cut short.

Again.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
You called it:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/20/asia/us-navy-destroyer-collision-singapore/index.html

Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson is expected to order a one-day pause in operations "to ensure we are taking all appropriate immediate measures to enhance the Navy's safe and effective operation around the world," according to a US Defense official and an advanced copy of Richardson's statement obtained by CNN.
The stand-down will take place over the next couple of weeks, at the discretion of individual commands, the defense official said.''

This will take a little more than buffing: I wonder if it's repairable?

Click to expand...
Ouch. That's quite a bruise...

I want to make it very clear to everyone reading that I'm not anti Navy; my interest is in making certain that the only casualties are unavoidable.

Hot dog maneuvers, red neck moves and cutting off big ships in tight quarters is a game with no tactical upside. Airliners operate with a sizeable 'bubble' of airspace around them so it begs the question why these guys can't do the same?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
They are different tools. AIS transmits information about a ship over VHF frequencies; things like name, cargo, heading, speed, etc. It will also calculate closest point of approach between the transmitter (them) and receiver (you). I can watch commercial traffic from 20 miles away some days.

MARPA is based on your RADAR unit. It can track a specific return and give you similar info to AIS like heading, speed, cpa, etc. RADAR can get pretty useless if there are a lot of large ships close by however. The reflections are so strong and come from so many directions the screen can white out and you can't tell what is where.

I have to believe though that the Navy uses very good radars (multiple units on multiple bands) and the crew knows how to use them. The unit I have is consumer grade. But I can still see and track a container ship.

My guess is they thought they could cut in front of the freighter and someone didn't pay attention to how long their ship (destroyer) was. They knew where the freighter was. They just got a case of testosterone and pulled a redneck turn. Think of it like some yahoo taking an exit from the middle lane with a truck a few feet behind them in the right lane going slightly faster. If you have a car, you might make it, pull a trailer and woops.

I've seen it before where I thought I could pass in front of another vessel but misjudged it's speed and had to correct to pass behind or speed way up to clear the boat safely. But my boat is short and I can change course easily. I don't have 300 feet of boat behind the wheel. It's not something I need to think a lot about.
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The explanation of AIS vs MARPA is very helpful, thank you.

If these guys can't figure out how to use a very fast and highly maneuverable vessel like a guided missile frigate to stay safely out of the way of merchant ships there are serious problems somewhere.

It's possible that the highly advanced radar systems aren't designed to work at such SHORT range and so the clutter can hide something big. It's a guess but I've seen this kind of thing before.
 
SneekyNinja

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
The explanation of AIS vs MARPA is very helpful, thank you.

If these guys can't figure out how to use a very fast and highly maneuverable vessel like a guided missile frigate to stay safely out of the way of merchant ships there are serious problems somewhere.

It's possible that the highly advanced radar systems aren't designed to work at such SHORT range and so the clutter can hide something big. It's a guess but I've seen this kind of thing before.
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They've close-in defense systems on board, close range shouldn't be an issue.

But I'm an enthusiast not a semen.
 
greg nr

greg nr

Well-Known Member
dstroy said:
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/uss-john-s-mccain-divers-search-10-missing-sailors-after-n794766
Click to expand...
There is also a CNN article that said one of the causes appears to be steering failure. The ship has backup steering systems, so it's not clear just what happened. But if it suddenly turned to port in close quarters, that would explain the collision, just not the cause.

The article went on to discuss that Navy ships are being forced to stay out longer, and defer visits to ship yards due to the pressures of increased duty demands (i.e. the military deploying more ships for longer periods without breaks - keeping a war footing in peace time is expensive and not necessary).

So this ship specifically is listed as having made over 100 "depot level" repairs at sea. It should have had time in a ship yard long before this incident, just like dozens if not hundreds of other active warships.
 
dstroy

dstroy

Well-Known Member
greg nr said:
There is also a CNN article that said one of the causes appears to be steering failure. The ship has backup steering systems, so it's not clear just what happened. But if it suddenly turned to port in close quarters, that would explain the collision, just not the cause.

The article went on to discuss that Navy ships are being forced to stay out longer, and defer visits to ship yards due to the pressures of increased duty demands (i.e. the military deploying more ships for longer periods without breaks - keeping a war footing in peace time is expensive and not necessary).

So this ship specifically is listed as having made over 100 "depot level" repairs at sea. It should have had time in a ship yard long before this incident, just like dozens if not hundreds of other active warships.
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Yeah, steering failure, but it takes time to man up aft steering (the backup steering control station) if that was the cause.
 
dstroy

dstroy

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Could use a glossary for the alphabet soup.

There are going to be more than a few careers cut short.

Again.
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officer of the deck

junior officer of the deck

boatswain mate of the watch

the helm is the usually very junior seaman that takes orders from the OOD for course corrections.
 
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