The patients gray areas

probo24 · Sep 7, 2010

I'm not sure anyone can answer questions like this one yet.
It does seem to me a lot of people are in the dark on who can and cannot
purchase a caregivers meds.
While as a caregiver you are allowed a max number of patients, and compensation
issues are addressed between patient and caregiver, it seems to me that the basic
question of what to do with meds over 2.5oz/patient has been ignored, or at least,
given the recent raids isn't very clear yet.
This is the root of my question, being a legal patient who has elected to grow
my own meds, in the technical sense, i am also a caregiver. Doesn't that
give me the same rights (if any) to get rid of my excess meds as say a
caregiver with patients.
For example, if a caregiver with five patients is "compensated" for extra meds from anyone (dispensaries) other than a patient he or she has a card for, and this is deemed legal in the future, couldn't i also get the same compensation, and wouldn't i be just as "legal"?
I'm trying to rationalize it this way, until we have some for sure answers.

bowlfullofbliss · Sep 7, 2010

Your question is a little unclear to me, but if you're asking if a patient who grows their own meds can also be a caregiver for other patients, the answer is yes. They will have to name you on their forms as their caregiver, and you can provide herb to them just as any other caregiver. The plus side is, if you are a card holding patient, and you are the caregiver to 5 patients, you can have 72 plants (your 12 plus their 60). That's my understanding.

If someone knows different, please correct me.

ozzrokk · Sep 7, 2010

You are asking if you have the same rights as a caregiver because you are a patient that grows for yourself. Very good question. I personally do not know the answer and hope that and many other issues get answered as law.....

rzza · Sep 7, 2010

i as a caregiver get the same rights as a patient and vise versa.

guy incognito · Sep 7, 2010

yea but what if he harvests and ends up with 10 ounces? what is he supposed to do with his 7.5 oz overage? he cant legally possess them. can he legally sell them to another patient? caregiver? dispensary?

deprave · Sep 8, 2010

If your a patient you can transfer meds to anyone who is a patient, this is clear in the law in multiple places.

Grey areas regarding transfers are regarding people who only have caregiver status, it can be argued that these people can only transfer to patients which are registered to them. Everything else regarding transfers is pretty clear cut, patient to patient transfer is very well protected with many laws. I am also really curious how it would be interpreted for selling to someone who is caregiver only status as a patient.. it seems you wouldn't have much protection in that situation but as the buyer you would. Granted you would have some protections still in that situation depending on the circumstances. Regardless, patients transfer to caregiver_only people every day and without any problems thus far..So my interpretation could be wrong but this is what I understand after talking to a lot of people in the community on this topic, some people outright refuse to deal with caregiver only people in a public setting and who can blame them. When I was just a caregiver I had a C put on my hand at an event and was told some patients wouldn't pass me joints or sell me meds with this C on my hand. Unfortunately I never met one of those patients at that event, it seems my C hand was always holding a joint.

TIP#1: If your not a patient use a patient as a broker.

TIP#2: your not selling your 'donating'

TIP#3: Only deal with transfers with people with patient cards to be extra safe or your registered caregiver

rzza · Sep 8, 2010

the bottom line IMO is this. be a patient, be a caregiver. i am a patient/caregiver. lovin life.

NBKA · Sep 8, 2010

deprave said:
If your a patient you can transfer meds to anyone who is a patient, this is clear in the law in multiple places.

Grey areas regarding transfers are regarding people who only have caregiver status, it can be argued that these people can only transfer to patients which are registered to them. Everything else regarding transfers is pretty clear cut, patient to patient transfer is very well protected with many laws. I am also really curious how it would be interpreted for selling to someone who is caregiver only status as a patient.. it seems you wouldn't have much protection in that situation but as the buyer you would. Granted you would have some protections still in that situation depending on the circumstances. Regardless, patients transfer to caregiver_only people every day and without any problems thus far..So my interpretation could be wrong but this is what I understand after talking to a lot of people in the community on this topic, some people outright refuse to deal with caregiver only people in a public setting and who can blame them. When I was just a caregiver I had a C put on my hand at an event and was told some patients wouldn't pass me joints or sell me meds with this C on my hand. Unfortunately I never met one of those patients at that event, it seems my C hand was always holding a joint.

TIP#1: If your not a patient use a patient as a broker.

TIP#2: your not selling your 'donating'

TIP#3: Only deal with transfers with people with patient cards to be extra safe or your registered caregiver

Not true, they are arressting people for patient to patient tranfers, there explaining like this, Say you had a script for Viccodin, and I also had one, you could not legaly give me some of your script, The state police are arressting under these grounds.
There also stating that Caregiver to patient trandfers are only legal if its done via your care giver, Another words, if I'm a care giver I can only give my meds to my patients, not anyone elses!
Remember its not how we interpet the law, its how the arressting officer views it, and the judge he sends you to.

probo24 · Sep 8, 2010

guy incognito said:
yea but what if he harvests and ends up with 10 ounces? what is he supposed to do with his 7.5 oz overage? he cant legally possess them. can he legally sell them to another patient? caregiver? dispensary?

Exactly my question

rzza said:
the bottom line IMO is this. be a patient, be a caregiver. i am a patient/caregiver. lovin life.

I understand that. Question is until i'm someones caregiver, while i'm a patient only what are the laws.

ozzrokk said:
You are asking if you have the same rights as a caregiver because you are a patient that grows for yourself. Very good question. I personally do not know the answer and hope that and many other issues get answered as law.....

Again, yes this is my question.

deprave said:
If your a patient you can transfer meds to anyone who is a patient, this is clear in the law in multiple places.

Grey areas regarding transfers are regarding people who only have caregiver status, it can be argued that these people can only transfer to patients which are registered to them. Everything else regarding transfers is pretty clear cut, patient to patient transfer is very well protected with many laws. I am also really curious how it would be interpreted for selling to someone who is caregiver only status as a patient.. it seems you wouldn't have much protection in that situation but as the buyer you would. Granted you would have some protections still in that situation depending on the circumstances. Regardless, patients transfer to caregiver_only people every day and without any problems thus far..So my interpretation could be wrong but this is what I understand after talking to a lot of people in the community on this topic, some people outright refuse to deal with caregiver only people in a public setting and who can blame them. When I was just a caregiver I had a C put on my hand at an event and was told some patients wouldn't pass me joints or sell me meds with this C on my hand. Unfortunately I never met one of those patients at that event, it seems my C hand was always holding a joint.

TIP#1: If your not a patient use a patient as a broker.

TIP#2: your not selling your 'donating'

TIP#3: Only deal with transfers with people with patient cards to be extra safe or your registered caregiver

I've not been able to read clearly where p2p is legal.
Again, while i am a patient, i have No caregiver marked on the back of my card. Authorized to possess plants is marked YES on the front.
If p2p is legal, then what is the point of having to list caregivers or have cards for your specific patients.
Do they consider patients withOUT caregivers different than a patient with a listed caregiver?
All my caregiver friends insist p2cg is legal as well as p2p too for what it's worth.
Thanks all for the info!

NBKA · Sep 8, 2010

probo24 said:
Exactly my question

I understand that. Question is until i'm someones caregiver, while i'm a patient only what are the laws.

Again, yes this is my question.

I've not been able to read clearly where p2p is legal.
Again, while i am a patient, i have No caregiver marked on the back of my card. Authorized to possess plants is marked YES on the front.
If p2p is legal, then what is the point of having to list caregivers or have cards for your specific patients.
Do they consider patients withOUT caregivers different than a patient with a listed caregiver?
All my caregiver friends insist p2cg is legal as well as p2p too for what it's worth.
Thanks all for the info!

Yep, your understanding it correctly!
Again I state, its Not how we view the law, its how they (the police, judge and jury) view the law.
Its way to gray ( the law) right now, there has to be test case's before any one can state this or that as law!
I for one do not want to be one of those test case's, very costly to whom this does happen.

NBKA · Sep 8, 2010

here is a quote from the Dryden raid......

This search warrant says it all. Investigators believe the dispensary is dispensing marijuana illegally, allowing people with state-issued cards to just come in and purchase pot, and not from a caregiver.
"They were not listed as their actual caregivers, which is a question of the law," said Lapeer County Sheriff Ron Kalanquin.

As far as they understand (police) p2p transfers are not allowed, and as far as there thinking is, Caregiver to a patient (not theres) is ilegal.

peilo · Sep 8, 2010

If your a patient you can transfer meds to anyone who is a patient, this is clear in the law in multiple places.

Could you post a link to this information. I have not seen this anywhere and as far as I know its illegal. Caregivers can only supply their patients and be compensated for it. That is it. People get rid of overages anyway they can but they do it illegally if its not to their registered patients.

But that is def the grey area Probo, that the plant limits allow you to grow more then would actually be needed or consumed by the patient('s)

nbka is correct

NBKA · Sep 8, 2010

peilo said:
Could you post a link to this information. I have not seen this anywhere and as far as I know its illegal. Caregivers can only supply their patients and be compensated for it. That is it. People get rid of overages anyway they can but they do it illegally if its not to their registered patients.

But that is def the grey area Probo, that the plant limits allow you to grow more then would actually be needed or consumed by the patient('s)

nbka is correct

I so wish I was not right here, but the more I dig into it the more this rings true!
If you are a caregiver, you can only get rid of meds to your patients period!
You can not sell it to anyone else period!
Patient to patient transfers are ilegal!
Argue all you want with me, but this is how LEO's are viewing the law, and there the ones aressting you not me.

NBKA · Sep 8, 2010

Here is a nice tid bit I pulled off the MMMP web site.

Question: I am too ill to grow my own medical marihuana. What can I do?
Answer: The MMMA provides for a system of designated caregivers. The caregiver can acquire 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana and grow up to 12 marihuana plants for a qualifying patient. The caregiver may assist up to 5 patients. The caregiver must sign a statement agreeing to provide marihuana only to the qualifying patients who have named the individual as their caregiver. The caregiver's name, address, birth date and social security number must be provided to the state at the time of a patient's registration. The Department will issue a registry identification card to the caregiver who is named by a qualifying patient on his/her application. The Department may not issue a registry identification card to a proposed caregiver who has previously been convicted of a felony drug offense. The Department will verify through a background check with the Michigan State Police that the designated caregiver has no disqualifying felony drug conviction. A caregiver may receive reasonable compensation for services provided to assist with a qualifying patient's medical use of marihuana.

Its right there in Black and White, Caregiver to HIS patients only.....

deprave · Sep 8, 2010

right....caregiver-only to anyone other than their registered patient is questionable but Patient to Patient is clearly legal, some police department just dont like the law and want to test it that is why dispensaries have been raided...here is some quotes from the actual books and not some heresay:

(h) "Qualifying patient" means a person who has been diagnosed by a physician as having a debilitating medical condition.

(g) A person shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for providing a registered qualifying patient or a registered primary caregiver with marihuana paraphernalia for purposes of a qualifying patient's medical use of marihuana.

^ You shall not be subject to prosecution for assisting a registered patient.....AKA - ANY REGISTERED PATIENT

(e) "Medical use" means the acquisition, possession, cultivation, manufacture, use, internal possession, delivery, transfer, or transportation of marihuana or paraphernalia relating to the administration of marihuana to treat or alleviate a registered qualifying patient's debilitating medical condition or symptoms associated with the debilitating medical condition.

A registered qualifying patient aka any registered qualifying patient.

A qualifying patient who has been issued and possesses a registry identification card shall not be subject to arrest, prosecution, or penalty in any manner, or denied any right or privilege, including but not limited to civil penalty or disciplinary action by a business or occupational or professional licensing board or bureau, for the medical use of marihuana in accordance with this act, provided that the qualifying patient possesses an amount of marihuana that does not exceed 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana, and, if the qualifying patient has not specified that a primary caregiver will be allowed under state law to cultivate marihuana for the qualifying patient, 12 marihuana plants kept in an enclosed, locked facility. Any incidental amount of seeds, stalks, and unusable roots shall also be allowed under state law and shall not be included in this amount.

(k) Any registered qualifying patient or registered primary caregiver who sells marihuana to someone who is not allowed to use marihuana for medical purposes under this act shall have his or her registry identification card revoked and is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both, in addition to any other penalties for the distribution of marihuana.

deprave · Sep 8, 2010

Selling to dispensaries is not a good idea for obvious reasons especially with things going on right now but a patient transfer to another patient directly is incredibly safe

deprave · Sep 8, 2010

NBKA said:
Patient to patient transfers are ilegal!
Argue all you want with me, but this is how LEO's are viewing the law, and there the ones aressting you not me.

Your statement here is bit off base, maybe oakland county & lapeer county LEOS view it that way but the vast majority of judges & prosecutors faced with this question feel that patient to patient is legal, ask them yourself. In my county the prosecutor will dismiss any marijuana case that has medical claim. No judge in the entire state has ruled against someone on this yet.

peilo · Sep 8, 2010

those posting seem to be caregivers rights, there is no patient to patient transfers the way I have interpreted it besides when you read this. A registered patient shouldn't be selling shit to no one, but this sounds like it allows it and will most likely be corrected or changed I think

(k) Any registered qualifying patient or registered primary caregiver who sells marihuana to someone who is not allowed to use marihuana for medical purposes under this act shall have his or her registry identification card revoked and is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both, in addition to any other penalties for the distribution of marihuana.

[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

NBKA · Sep 9, 2010

deprave said:
Your statement here is bit off base, maybe oakland county & lapeer county LEOS view it that way but the vast majority of judges & prosecutors faced with this question feel that patient to patient is legal, ask them yourself. In my county the prosecutor will dismiss any marijuana case that has medical claim. No judge in the entire state has ruled against someone on this yet.

I'm glad your in a good county, here in Grand Traverse, the local sherriff and city police have members on a board that has set up the regulations and by-laws for compassion clubs and growing ordenances for the city. everything passed with flying colors 4 weeks ago, Now the State police and the TNT (Traverse City Narcotics Team, Regulated by the govener of the state.) have had teams of men (plain and uniformed) video and audio survailancing for the last three meeting, they even went as far as to come to the door and tell the guard that they are doing so.
Do you have links or test case's available for the "vast majority of judges & prosecutors" who agree with the law? I'm not tring to be an ass here, I would love some proof that this is not going down the way it appears.

probo24 · Sep 9, 2010

NBKA said:
Here is a nice tid bit I pulled off the MMMP web site.

Question: I am too ill to grow my own medical marihuana. What can I do?
Answer: The MMMA provides for a system of designated caregivers. The caregiver can acquire 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana and grow up to 12 marihuana plants for a qualifying patient. The caregiver may assist up to 5 patients. The caregiver must sign a statement agreeing to provide marihuana only to the qualifying patients who have named the individual as their caregiver. The caregiver's name, address, birth date and social security number must be provided to the state at the time of a patient's registration. The Department will issue a registry identification card to the caregiver who is named by a qualifying patient on his/her application. The Department may not issue a registry identification card to a proposed caregiver who has previously been convicted of a felony drug offense. The Department will verify through a background check with the Michigan State Police that the designated caregiver has no disqualifying felony drug conviction. A caregiver may receive reasonable compensation for services provided to assist with a qualifying patient's medical use of marihuana.

Its right there in Black and White, Caregiver to HIS patients only.....

I did read that also. In fact, this is what i read that made me question the whole idea of
dispensaries being legal for anyone, be it patient or caregiver. You're right, it does seem
pretty black and white. I'm not sure what people are reading in the law that makes it,
as some would say, clearly legal to do p2p transfers.

The patients gray areas

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member