Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize

BrotherEsau said:

What exactly do you mean native soil? Are you just planting in the ground without any amendments?

sorry if I missed something this thread is long

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My guess is locally manufactured soil mixes. We have a great facility in northern Michigan that makes a huge variety of mixes. I watched the morning news today and the field reporter ate an egg cooked in a plastic back that was cooked inside the compost pile. LOL

I'm just confused as to why he wouldn't apply veganics to his outdoor. seems pretty obvious.

then again guano is the *shit*

GANJGUY420 said:

Your might just be more dumb than you think obviously. Not getting the point much here are ya? The man is expressing how clean the meds are due to animal derivitives being replaced by plant derived material. Plain n simple. If you don't get that then you don't know shit about cultivating this wonderful herb and you should go do your homework before you down someone else. 420GOD..... Get that shit outta here too! Much love get your shit together peace


Ganj

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I've been vegan since 1996 so I'm pretty sure I am familiar with what he means. I'm just wondering he is not using this system of growing with outdoor. he said he has abandoned veganics for native soil...my question is what exactly he meant by native soil

you can totally use all vegan amendments in an outdoor environment.

and why all the hostility? did you not understand what I meant by my original post?

you need to relax brother

You guys ready to quit playin with those bottles? Farming that make sense? Check this out https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols.html

This thread is pretty much done with imo. I'm sure the OP would agree.

headtreep said:

You guys ready to quit playin with those bottles? Farming that make sense? Check this out https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols.html

This thread is pretty much done with imo. I'm sure the OP would agree.

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And here is a link for a condensed version, http://forum.seeddepot.nl/showthread.php?4100-Recycled-Organic-Living-Soil-(ROLS)-and-No-Till-Thread, but do yourself a favor and read the original thread at ICMag if you got the time...

microbes for the win!

ya we get it bro.... "check out the ROLS and No Tills thread".... "quit playing with those bottles".... for christ sake headtreep, you just said the same thing for like 5 consecutive posts. and lol, just because your into another style of growing, doesn't mean this thread is dead. get over yourself homie.

I think what HT is trying to get across is there are many ways to grow. Of course he is bias toward the method he currently uses. He is trying to share info on how to do indoor without paying for overpriced inputs and media at a grow shop. He is trying to help you. When I started veganics I worked at a shop and the products (at cost!) still seemed priciey. ROLS method works well, is cheaper and the plants are happier now that my biocanna jugs remain closed. Our understanding is now of indoor container based agriculture, not just industry driven hype about growing weed.
Matt has moved on from Veganics because we are all on the same journey and all learning to grow danker together; for less money and less damage to the earth from capitalist extraction (ie greed). All the plants in the woods do not need a grow shop (or even a farmer for that matter) and neither does cannabis. If veganics is working well for you and you can afford it (don't mind sharing a chunk of your hard earned income with dudes at grow shop) then go on with it. We quit the veganics because we found something that makes more sense to OUR gardens and OUR needs!

Matts real contribution here and to the community at large is ICE WAX and high end IWE tech. Plus shatter bros if you dab the dark side.
This thread is essentially dead because Matt is less present as he is so busy working and learning in his Living Soil Organic outdoor greenhouse IWE grows! RIZE UP! (Meaning Rize is always stepping up his game when he learns more/better/cheaper ways to cultivate.

I've read through the ROLS thread and I have absolutely nothing against it, nor do I have anything against furthering one's knowledge of organic gardening. And I definitely agree that we are all on the same journey for all the same reasons. I just don't understand why everyone is so quick to abandon the concept of veganics. I feel like, as soon as Matt posted that he had moved onto greenhouse organics, everyone started to feel like veganics was dead and no longer cutting edge or interesting. I have no doubt that the ROLS method produces amazing quality plants, and costs a hell of a lot less money. I've actually learned quite a bit from reading it. Having said that, I really don't believe that the results are better, or that they are in any way more astonishing then that of veganics. Also, I'd be willing to bet that the end product doesn't taste as good or burn as clean, however that's just my unfounded opinion. I'm still fairly new to growing but my plants are as healthy and as pretty to look at as anything I've seen anywhere. It's very possible that one day in the future, when I fully understand all the concepts of true, do-it-all-yourself organics, and have the necessary time and energy that is takes to make it work, I may well change things up. However, when that day comes, I definitely wont be using any animal based or synthetics products of any sort. I think that a lot of people have forgotten the beauty and purity of veganics whether bottled or not. When I first stumbled upon this thread, I felt that I found something special and revolutionary to the world of cannabis. The ROLS and Veganics thread CAN coexist in their own right. Even though Matt has moved on to other things, I don't understand why anyone would want to deem this thread as dead, thus ending the discussion and any further knowledge that could be obtained here. I have a feeling that Matt isn't forever done with veganics. He may just be focusing on a growing method that's better suited for greenhouse growing. He himself said that veganics is a higher form of INDOOR organic gardening. Im sure that the cost of feeding 10 foot plants in 150 gallons smart pots would be totally impractical using expensive products like Bio Canna. I could be very wrong about this, but I feel that if Matt ever made the decision to start gardening indoors again, he may very well end up switching back to some form of plant based nutrition. That's just an opinion, and I have no idea if there's any truth to it or not. However, based on Matt's initial passion for veganics, I don't think that it's something that he's just going to permanently discard. Just my opinion though.

SeniorFrostyKush said:

I've read through the ROLS thread and I have nothing against it, nor do I have anything against furthering one's knowledge of organic gardening. And I definitely agree that we are all on the same journey for all the same reasons. I just don't understand why everyone is so quick to abandon the concept of veganics. I feel like, as soon as Matt posted that he had moved onto greenhouse organics, everyone felt as if the concept of veganics was dead, and no longer cutting edge or interesting. I have no doubt that the ROLS method produces amazing quality plants, and costs a hell of a lot less money. I've actually learned quite a bit from reading it. Having said that, I really don't believe that the results are better, or that they are in any way more astonishing then that of veganics. Also, I'd be willing to bet the end product doesn't taste as good or burn as clean, however that is just my unfounded opinion. I'm still fairly new to growing but my plants are as healthy and pretty to look at as anything I've seen anywhere. It's very possible that one day in the future, when I fully understand all the concepts of true, do-it-all-yourself organics, I may well change things up. However, when that day comes, I definitely wont be using any animal based or synthetics products of any sort. I think that a lot of people have forgotten the beauty and purity of veganics whether bottled or not. When I first stumbled upon this thread, I felt that I found something special and revolutionary to the world of cannabis. The ROLS and veganic threads CAN coexist in their own right. Even though Matt has moved on to other things, I don't know why anyone would want to deem this thread as dead, thus ending the discussion and any further knowledge that could be obtained here. I have a feeling that Matt isn't forever done with veganics. He might just be focusing on growing greenhouse bud ATM. He himself said that veganics is a higher form of INDOOR organic gardening. Im sure that the cost of feeding 10 foot plants in 150 gallons smart pots would be totally impractical using expensive products like Bio Canna. I could be very wrong about this, but I have a feeling that if Matt decides to start gardening indoors again, he may very well switch back to some form of plant based nutrition. That's just an opinion, and I have no idea there's any truth to it or not. However, based on Matt's initial passion for veganics, I don't think that it's something that he's just going to permanently discard. Just my opinion though.

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You don't have to use any animal based or synthetic products to grow in a living organic soil. In fact, most proponents of ROLS discourage the use of animal based products such as blood meal and bone meal. Inputs such as alfalfa meal, kelp meal, rock dusts, etc will be the foundation of your soil.

Using expensive bottled products of any kind is not necessary to achieve great results.

I'm not sure if anyone posted this link or not yet. Tim Wilson, the compost tea guru, has a current and newly revised list of information detailing his AACT making methods. He hasn't changed a whole lot. Just a few small revisions in his recipe and few things that he no longer advises using in your brew. Scroll down the page to an article called, "More On Compost Tea (2013)". http://www.microbeorganics.com/#What_is_Compost_Tea Here's Tim's Slightly Revised Recipe (5 Gallon Brew): EWC= 1.904 Cups ( .38 of a cup per gallon). Blackstrap Molasses= 6.4 TBSP (1.28 TBSP per gallon). That's all that he recommends using. No more kelp meal. No humic or fulvic, and he also only recommends using fish hydrolysate if your looking to make a fungal dominate brew. I never read his book, but the thing I'm having trouble understanding is the fact that he advises to NOT dilute the tea after brewing and to ONLY follow up with water "if necessary". Whatever that means. I've seen Matt post more than a few times, to dilute the brew by 20-30x before watering, so I'm a little stumped on how to go about things now. I sure as hell don't want have to buy more air pumps and stones, and have to brew 3 times as much tea just to feed my plants. Sounds weird to me.

st0wandgrow said:

You don't have to use any animal based or synthetic products to grow in a living organic soil. In fact, most proponents of ROLS discourage the use of animal based products such as blood meal and bone meal. Inputs such as alfalfa meal, kelp meal, rock dusts, etc will be the foundation of your soil.

Using expensive bottled products of any kind is not necessary to achieve great results.

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For reals...

Quality compost being the heart of the system. That being said, the best compost I have ever seen/used/made was entirely from grass clippings, wildflowers, clover and alfalfa. It was a 2 year process, but the end result was incredible.

Add some kelp, neem, karanja, nettle meal, rock dust and volcanic rock, and you have yourself a tote ideal for a ROLS system...

No animal based manures required, NO BOTTLES and entirely vegan.

Rising Moon said:

For reals...

Quality compost being the heart of the system. That being said, the best compost I have ever seen/used/made was entirely from grass clippings, wildflowers, clover and alfalfa. It was a 2 year process, but the end result was incredible.

Add some kelp, neem, karanja, nettle meal, rock dust and volcanic rock, and you have yourself a tote ideal for a ROLS system...

No animal based manures required, NO BOTTLES and entirely vegan.

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Absolutely! I consider it a given, but I suppose it's worth repeating.

SFK - go with MMs recommendations. Tim knows way more about tea than most of us ever will. Matt uses his scope to look at trics, Tim's is focused on microbe populations and he understands that a good tea is alive and in balance, not made of inoculant products etc.

IMO the main reason this thread is dead is that the OP has moved on down the path on the journey of growing. From my perspective, Matt is not into veganics due to marketing reasons. He was in it for quality plants, now because of General Hydroponics and Kyle Kushman marketing their products based on being veganic, why should Matt advertise for them? (GO and kyles OG tea, lol) He was a big part of helping kyle dial it in, and the main difference between the two guys was/is SCIENCE. Kyle knows from experience using bottled products and runs with the grow shop dogmas for the main part. Matt was responsible for teaching kyle early on about the science behind using microbes to grow better indoor cannabis.

Science is what also sets living organic soils like ROLS apart. These "higher organic" styles are based in traditions that have existed long before the grow shop PK booster crazes, and long before modern science. Simply, these styles connect with human agricultural history, and cannabis has long played a part in many of these practices. Real agricultural knowhow and an understanding of how plants thrive in nature have been the basis, and modern science a powerful tool in creating real horticultural knowledge and creating plants out of what grows and is harvested all around us, no matter where we live or if we garden outdoor, greenhouse, or under thouies! Knowledge is power... thanks RIU and to the whole online garden community. Cannabis is just a vegetable and IME most modern gardens would benefit a TON from listening to our grannies about how they know how to grow vegis, in the ground without bottles, bubblers, etc. Mine sure has! Oh and its much cheaper and easier as well. Danks Matt for enlightening others with your threads, and showing us that good gardeners change what they do as they learn more about what they are doing and the natural processes of our home.

Ive tried to go vegan in my grow but its hard to find a good source of Phos. Even with soft rock phosphate and cotton seed meal i would still get deficiencies. I do not use bottled nutes either. The only animal product I use is crab / shrimp meal and sometimes fish meal. No blood meal, no bone meal, and definitely no guano or manure. I have a friend that after 20 something years of organic growing, he developed a severe allergy to guano. He can't smoke anything grown with guano. That made me stop using guano / manure.. I also do rols method too. Its all about the bennies and enzymes... some good vermicompost and teas and you are good.

hyroot - try comfrey or kelp for your phos....1/2 cup per cuft of each. i'd be surprised if you are still having issues after that.....a good topdress of comfrey should do the trick if you are mid-cycle and don't have time to reamend your soil.

IMO another reason this thread is dead is because bio-canna is illegal now in a bunch of states....lmao

mods...can we make this un-sticky? seems appropriate at this point, especially now that matt has renounced veganics....

how many folks out there are still using bio-canna and following kyles advice? hopefully not too many...

Cann said:

hyroot - try comfrey or kelp for your phos....1/2 cup per cuft of each. i'd be surprised if you are still having issues after that.....a good topdress of comfrey should do the trick if you are mid-cycle and don't have time to reamend your soil.

IMO another reason this thread is dead is because bio-canna is illegal now in a bunch of states....lmao

mods...can we make this un-sticky? seems appropriate at this point, especially now that matt has renounced veganics....

how many folks out there are still using bio-canna and following kyles advice? hopefully not too many...

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I think you misread that. I was saying phos is hard to find not potassium. Every kelp I have ever gotten or seen does not have any phos in it. Kelp does have a lot of potassium and iron and other trace minerals. Some have a little nitrogen.

i think you are getting a bit caught up in the whole N-P-K dogma....with enough humic content and a few amendments you should be fine. i don't have anything in my soil for phosphorous specifically...just kelp, neem, comfrey, rock dusts, vermicompost, and crab meal (the only thing thats not "vegan") and my plants are jammin. so unless the crab is supplying all my phosphorous then I don't see how "vegan" soil can be lacking...maybe i'm missing something though.

what kind of humus are you using?

what are the signs of "phosphorous deficiency" that you are seeing?

building a very high quality soil without animal additions (except worms and tiny creatures) shouldn't be difficult..you definitely shouldn't be seeing any deficiencies

crab meal has phos and nitrogen. same with shrimp meal ( can't find that locally anymore) rock dust does too.

I know plants don't need that much npk. But they need some. Npk rating is still a representation of what is in or not in nutrients. Kelp has zero phos. Comfrey is like vermicompost. What you feed it is whats in there.

i use eco scraps compost ( better and different mix if you saw my other post in rols) plus my own vermicompost (not much ) for humic. I feed them kelp all kinds of veggies, crab meal, and afalfa meal and tea bags. i dumped the last little bit of dr earth tomato & vegtable in there too. and use the eco scraps for bedding. The end result of composting is humus / humic.

I don't see deficiencies on all strains, just the northern lights and hindu skunk, the chees berry and new phenos of northern lights is fine. its yellowing and browning starting from the tips and moving inward. then the tips turn crunchy and taco downward if it gets that far.


lower right corner in first pic and fan leaves in other pic

Cann said:

hyroot - try comfrey or kelp for your phos....1/2 cup per cuft of each. i'd be surprised if you are still having issues after that.....a good topdress of comfrey should do the trick if you are mid-cycle and don't have time to reamend your soil.

IMO another reason this thread is dead is because bio-canna is illegal now in a bunch of states....lmao

mods...can we make this un-sticky? seems appropriate at this point, especially now that matt has renounced veganics....

how many folks out there are still using bio-canna and following kyles advice? hopefully not too many...

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no. just because matt isn't using veganics doesn't mean others aren't, we are supposed to give information for everyone, this will continue to be stickied because it has good information, just because someone stops doing something doesn't mean we unsticky it. ive been very fair in this forum and sticked something at users requests I will keep this up as not everyone does the same thing in organics and we can for sure have this stickied if we can have others.

sunni said:

mmhm just curious whos all vegan and uses veganic growing, so i can find myself a base of people to share things with. I understand why non -vegans choose a veganic way of growing.

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Old post to reply to, but I don't care.

I am vegan and have been for a few years now.