Why do you oppose universal, single-payer healthcare?

abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
M4A covers everything, including dental, vision, mental health, and provides coverage for abortion, and it costs significantly less than what we're paying for now while 30-40 million Americans have no access to healthcare at all
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"We".

Healthy people are penalized. That's not fair. The big companies raking in fortunes by poisoning people should be penalized. Under your system, everyone except them is penalized and they continue to make a mountain of money. If measures are taken to reduce all costs, then my costs should be even lower because I would opt out of coverage for many of the things that are covered because I am not at risk of developing such ailments.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
dandyrandy said:
After a friend went in the hospital for a problem associated with his heart maybe cost is an issue. 27k for 2.5 days with only monitoring being done. Released with no issues. As far as insurance and hospital costs go any time you have to pay shareholders you are throwing away money. Non profit would certainly cut some fat from shareholders. A "managed" non profit system will always cost less. I have a friend who is a Dr. moved from Canada to set up practice here about 20 years ago. He has quite a successful practice with several nurse practitioners working under him. He plays golf a lot. In fact his daughter got a scholarship for golf. But anyway I asked him why he moved here. He said money. Canada doesn't pay as well. It's complicated.
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Canada is 37 million people. US is 329 million.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
Healthy people are penalized. That's not fair.
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People who drive safely are penalized. That's not fair.

Are you legitimately retarded? That's exactly how insurance works. The healthy subsidize the unhealthy. That's exactly why it's effective..

Do you know what 'insurance' means?
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
People who drive safely are penalized. That's not fair.

Are you legitimately retarded? That's exactly how insurance works. The healthy subsidize the unhealthy. That's exactly why it's effective..

Do you know what 'insurance' means?
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This is laced with sig-worthy stupidity.

My dad has never been in an auto accident, in his 55 years of driving A LOT. His premiums are extremely low, because is group covers people like himself. If you put every dumb ass 16 year old in that group, his premium goes up.

This is essentially what you're suggesting should happen.

When I was a kid, just before I started driving, a law was passed mandating that all motorists have an insurance premium. Most people opted for liability, the minimum. Funny thing happened, aside from safer cars and roads, premiums decreased, for all groups. It was amazing and nobody really ever criticizes it.

That's what Obama did for healthcare. What you're suggesting is stupid as fuck and I am vehemently opposed.
 
blu3bird

blu3bird

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
People who drive safely are penalized. That's not fair.

Are you legitimately retarded? That's exactly how insurance works. The healthy subsidize the unhealthy. That's exactly why it's effective..

Do you know what 'insurance' means?
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You're right, it is how insurance works. It's very effective at punishing the good guys


AC is way more on point in the way it isn't right to pool people in one group though
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
This is laced with sig-worthy stupidity.

My dad has never been in an auto accident, in his 55 years of driving A LOT. His premiums are extremely low, because is group covers people like himself. If you put every dumb ass 16 year old in that group, his premium goes up.

This is essentially what you're suggesting should happen.

When I was a kid, just before I started driving, a law was passed mandating that all motorists have an insurance premium. Most people opted for liability, the minimum. Funny thing happened, aside from safer cars and roads, premiums decreased, for all groups. It was amazing and nobody really ever criticizes it.

That's what Obama did for healthcare. What you're suggesting is stupid as fuck and I am vehemently opposed.
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You're free to remain ignorant all you want. The fact is every other modern country on Earth provides universal health care at around half the cost and they achieve higher results. If they can do it, we can do it better.
 
abandonconflict

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
blu3bird said:
You're right, it is how insurance works. It's very effective at punishing the good guys


AC is way more on point in the way it isn't right to pool people in one group though
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It's only a punishment if you need insurance and don't have it. Especially if you can't afford it. We're in agreement that what the GOP wants (uninsured millions) is inhumane. ACA is the answer. All premiums can be reduced even further by targeting industries that profit from poisoning people.
 
dandyrandy

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
Canada is 37 million people. US is 329 million.
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Thanks for the numbers. And the number of docters are far less in number as well. Not sure what you are trying to say. I have a daughter and a wife who are registered nurses. My mom and brother worked in healthcare in the sixties. In fact my brother had a hernia operation which cost ~$350 hospital and all in 62. My dad made ~$40 a week. Mom didn't work. Except canning vegetables etc. Back then women didn't have to work. Things have changed.
 
dandyrandy

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
I think some don't enjoy higher premiums due to other people having health issues. But I have no kids at home so why do I have to pay property taxes in which 75% goes to the schools. Sounds like Bigfoot logic to me. We've become self centered heathens.
 
Sir Napsalot

Sir Napsalot

Well-Known Member
"Some might say that even outlaws have a right to health"

-Alexander Gauge as Friar Tuck in the Robin Hood TV series from the '50s
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
dandyrandy said:
I think some don't enjoy higher premiums due to other people having health issues. But I have no kids at home so why do I have to pay property taxes in which 75% goes to the schools. Sounds like Bigfoot logic to me. We've become self centered heathens.
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People like him do not see any obligation of a citizen to society because society has shunned them for their views such as it is ok to have sex with a 12 year old.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
dandyrandy said:
Thanks for the numbers. And the number of docters are far less in number as well. Not sure what you are trying to say. I have a daughter and a wife who are registered nurses. My mom and brother worked in healthcare in the sixties. In fact my brother had a hernia operation which cost ~$350 hospital and all in 62. My dad made ~$40 a week. Mom didn't work. Except canning vegetables etc. Back then women didn't have to work. Things have changed.
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your mom worked and i bet she'd agree with me- wiping kids asses is work and there are websites dedicated soley for careers in childcare (nanny) for hire, same goes for cleaning (housekeeping) and cooking (chef).

your mom was performing three jobs minimally.
 
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BurtMaklin

BurtMaklin

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
Single-payer puts everyone into one group. People, fundamentally flawed, don't want one-size-fits-all healthcare. By all means there should be an expansion of the public option and it should even be competitive. To eliminate private insurance would not improve conditions for everyone. It wouldn't even improve costs for most. If the goal is to make healthcare universal and affordable the best way forward is not to make everyone into one insurance peer group.

This holds true for all forms of insurance. Good drivers get lower premiums on auto insurance. Servicemen have their own group for life insurance because they are more likely to die than many other groups. I don't smoke tobacco and I don't think lung cancer should be covered by my group and I don't want to pay a higher premium for a plan that covers it. Lung cancer and emphysema treatments should be paid for by a fund that comes from a tax on tobacco products and therefore free of cost to the patient. Not all healthcare fits.
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You realize you're already paying for all of that with your provider right? My house insurance goes up every year because dummies build on flood plains, along fault lines, on low lying areas of the coast prone to hurricane damage, etc...

Insurance by definition is the group paying for the individual. Wanna pay for only yourself, get out your checkbook and start writing.

To rail against universal healthcare is the epitome of stupid.
 
dandyrandy

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
schuylaar said:
your mom worked and i bet she'd agree with me- wiping kids asses is work and there are websites dedicated soley for careers in childcare (nanny) for hire, same goes for cleaning (housekeeping) and cooking (chef).

your mom was performing three jobs minimally.
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Actually after she got rid of us brats in the mid sixties she became an LPN with a sixth grade education. My brother became a radiologist. She was an amazing lady. Very religious. Never drank. Her and dad gave money to the baker's. What can you say.
 
dandyrandy

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
Unclebaldrick said:
People like him do not see any obligation of a citizen to society because society has shunned them for their views such as it is ok to have sex with a 12 year old.
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I want everyone to have some modest semblance of surviving. Back in the sixties not many women worked. They didn't financially have too. Goofy beliefs too. Now that the common couple need two incomes to buy a house and save for retirement is a real issue. Automation has decimated manufacturing employment. Additive manufacturing will finish more off. I pay bills now with zero human intervention. They'll deliver groceries and beer to my door! I just have to put pants on to sign for it...
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
You're free to remain ignorant all you want. The fact is every other modern country on Earth provides universal health care at around half the cost and they achieve higher results. If they can do it, we can do it better.
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Sanders proposal to force people into Medicare is politically a dead end and a gift to Republicans. A better opition is to give people the choice to pay for Medicare or private insurance and provide great Medicare coverage. As shown here, a one-size fits all government provided plan without alternatives isn't acceptable to most of the people in this country.

The polls you continue to post are already out of date -- something you are known to do and I'm sure will continue to do because you are an effin liar. The polls you post reflected the opinions of people who didn't understand that Bernie's plan would end private insurance and force them into Medicare. When specifically asked if they support Bernie's plan after learning his plan would end private insurance and move everybody into Medicare, support drops to 37%. It is a losing proposition. People learned during the debates the details of Bernies plan. The next poll about Medicare for all will show plummeting support for Bernie's stupid, amateurish and unfinished plan.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
You realize you're already paying for all of that with your provider right? My house insurance goes up every year because dummies build on flood plains, along fault lines, on low lying areas of the coast prone to hurricane damage, etc...
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Not true
 
Unclebaldrick

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
dandyrandy said:
I want everyone to have some modest semblance of surviving. Back in the sixties not many women worked. They didn't financially have too. Goofy beliefs too. Now that the common couple need two incomes to buy a house and save for retirement is a real issue. Automation has decimated manufacturing employment. Additive manufacturing will finish more off. I pay bills now with zero human intervention. They'll deliver groceries and beer to my door! I just have to put pants on to sign for it...
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You put on pants?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
Insurance by definition is the group paying for the individual. Wanna pay for only yourself, get out your checkbook and start writing.

To rail against universal healthcare is the epitome of stupid.
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Insurance is paying into a group fund to mitigate risk. Everybody lives with risk of a loss and if they can easily afford to pay to replace something that is lost, damaged or fails early, they self insure. If the cost of addressing a loss is higher than they can afford then people look to buy insurance. If the cost of insurance is too high then people find other ways to mitigate the risk or they just live with it. Federal flood insurance program was put in place because private insurers were unwilling to cover losses due to floods in flood prone areas. We can debate the merits of the idea but it was a federally subsidized plan that was not designed to break even, it was always intended to run at a loss. It allowed builders to build homes in flood prone areas.

It is a misnomer to call healthcare coverage, "insurance". It is health care coverage. It is not insurance and operates according to different market principles.

I'm not against universal healthcare, I'm against Bernie's bill because it is a poorly written and shoddy plan with literally no means to pay for it. It lists all the procedures that will be covered but guess what? There are no guarantees that they will remain in the final bill. There is no firm estimate for cost too. Also, expanding the program from 44 million people to 327 million people in four years is not addressed in the plan either. Waiting times are projected to go up because the current health care system is not ready for the increased number of people who will use the "free" system. We need a better plan than Bernie's bill.

So, yes, conceptually, universal healthcare is decent idea and works well in other countries. Yes, I think long term this country will end up there. Bernie's plan is poorly thought out. People should have the option to buy into Medicare or to purchase private insurance.

If Bernie's plan is so good, why does it force people out of plans they like and into a Medicare? If it's so good, people would naturally choose Medicare, would they not?
 
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