Why do you oppose universal, single-payer healthcare?

dandyrandy

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Insurance is paying into a group fund to mitigate risk. Everybody lives with risk of a loss and if they can easily afford to pay to replace something that is lost, damaged or fails early, they self insure. If the cost of addressing a loss is higher than they can afford then people look to buy insurance. If the cost of insurance is too high then people find other ways to mitigate the risk or they just live with it. Federal flood insurance program was put in place because private insurers were unwilling to cover losses due to floods in flood prone areas. We can debate the merits of the idea but it was a federally subsidized plan that was not designed to break even, it was always intended to run at a loss. It allowed builders to build homes in flood prone areas.

It is a misnomer to call healthcare coverage, "insurance". It is health care coverage. It is not insurance and operates according to different market principles.

I'm not against universal healthcare, I'm against Bernie's bill because it is a poorly written and shoddy plan with literally no means to pay for it. It lists all the procedures that will be covered but guess what? There are no guarantees that they will remain in the final bill. There is no firm estimate for cost too. Also, expanding the program from 44 million people to 327 million people in four years is not addressed in the plan either. Waiting times are projected to go up because the current health care system is not ready for the increased number of people who will use the "free" system. We need a better plan than Bernie's bill.

So, yes, conceptually, universal healthcare is decent idea and works well in other countries. Yes, I think long term this country will end up there. Bernie's plan is poorly thought out. People should have the option to buy into Medicare or to purchase private insurance.

If Bernie's plan is so good, why does it force people out of plans they like and into a Medicare? If it's so good, people would naturally choose Medicare, would they not?
Click to expand...
Doctors who take Medicare usually agree to much less in payment than say from United healthcare. So you won't find Medicare only doctors. The Dr my wife works for hates Medicare. Tons of money to increase payments if people weren't so greedy. Doctors that work for the Cleveland clinic make less than most other doctors in their field. That's why most are driven that work there. Research doctors are the same way. Driven by lofty ideals. Not much money. Some peoples goals are personal. Didn't get much training in compassion. Wired that way.
 
dandyrandy

dandyrandy

Well-Known Member
abandonconflict said:
"We".

Healthy people are penalized. That's not fair. The big companies raking in fortunes by poisoning people should be penalized. Under your system, everyone except them is penalized and they continue to make a mountain of money. If measures are taken to reduce all costs, then my costs should be even lower because I would opt out of coverage for many of the things that are covered because I am not at risk of developing such ailments.
Click to expand...
Funny thing. I met a doctor who is in his twenties a few months ago. I was waiting for my wife and we got to talking. He was a marathon runner and a cardiologist. And developed AFib. He said 24% of people above 70 will develop it. No known reason. I'd never heard of it. You just never know. He went back to school to study electrocardiology. At least now he's quite familiar with his malady.
 
BurtMaklin

BurtMaklin

Well-Known Member
@Fogdog

We can argue symantics of what insurance is or isn't, but really, it's irrelevant.

Universal healthcare is just that, universal. What you want is something different, something that allows you to keep your privilege. From what I gather from your other comments in this thread and others, you believe everyone should have something, just not what you have. You have assigned yourself a greater value than other human beings because you can afford private insurance, or any number of reasons why you deem yourself more deserving.

What you should be doing is requiring your government (the same government that bailed out big banks, cut taxes for the rich, gives handouts to corporations, etc...) to provide care that brings everyone up to top tier healthcare standards and not create barriers for vulnerable citizens based on your own bigoted idea of who deserves what.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
@Fogdog

We can argue symantics of what insurance is or isn't, but really, it's irrelevant.

Universal healthcare is just that, universal. What you want is something different, something that allows you to keep your privilege. From what I gather from your other comments in this thread and others, you believe everyone should have something, just not what you have. You have assigned yourself a greater value than other human beings because you can afford private insurance, or any number of reasons why you deem yourself more deserving.

What you should be doing is requiring your government (the same government that bailed out big banks, cut taxes for the rich, gives handouts to corporations, etc...) to provide care that brings everyone up to top tier healthcare standards and not create barriers for vulnerable citizens based on your own bigoted idea of who deserves what.
Click to expand...
What is it with your kind putting words into the mouths of others. Is the straw man argument all your kind have? Read my post. You "gather" the opposite of what I said.

Sanders plan is fucking stupid. It's not universal healthcare coverage that I'm against but his fucking stupid plan that is incomplete and a non-starter for most in this country

Typical of your kind's authoritarian attitudes, you go on to tell me "What (I) should be doing" as if expecting more than a shabby half assed incomplete idea of healthcare legislation from a US Senator is something that I should not be doing. Nope. I expect more than a song and a prayer with a miracle in the middle of it from our legislators when they write a bill that affects a healthcare system that services 327 million people and is 25% of this country's economy.

Not only are the mechanics of the plan half-assed but the bill itself is a poison pill for the Democratic Party's chances of unseating Trump in 2020.. About 100 million people say they like the private healthcare plans they have. Do you actually think that telling 100 million people who like their health care plan, "if I'm elected you will be forcibly enrolled in Medicare and your private plan will be cancelled without your consent", is a viable way to win an election? The only reason it hasn't already blown up in Sanders face is because Sanders either maliciously avoided mentioning this to those 100 million people or most likely, he's an incompetent leader and simply didn't think they'd care.

I support Medicare as a public option. I support making Medicare the sole option for people who need subsidized healthcare. I think Medicare is a good service and have plenty of experience with Medicare as the primary care giver and fiduciary for my elderly mother. Medicare is a good service. I think if it becomes a public option, if it continues to deliver good service and is priced fairly people will naturally migrate to it. Forcing people into it is a dumb idea. There are better ways.
 
BurtMaklin

BurtMaklin

Well-Known Member
Lol @ authoritarian and "my kind".

I didn't read the rest, I just assume it's the same long, slow, farting sound that most of your posts consist of.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
Lol @ authoritarian and "my kind".

I didn't read the rest, I just assume it's the same long, slow, farting sound that most of your posts consist of.
Click to expand...
I read your post. Typical of your kind to say I didn't. Intellectually dishonest.
 
BurtMaklin

BurtMaklin

Well-Known Member
I might be high, but I'm pretty sure I said I didn't read your post not the other way around. I got to the "authoritarian" mumbo jumbo, and my eyes glazed over.
 
D

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
cool2burn said:
Death boards for one. There is a reason many people in countries with universal healthcare have to come to the States for treatment.
Click to expand...
Late to the thread sorry. This is one of the most ignorant things that Americans say. Don't be an idiot sir. Have you asked a person from a first world country with universal healthcare yourself? No? Well let me educate you a little

I'm from Japan

Most doctor visits you don't need an appointment, just walk in. Average wait time under 30 minutes.
Cavity costs about $20 to fix (dentist usually do need appointment but if you are in pain they will see you)
Many of the top doctors studied in America (never heard of the brain drain?) and now are as good or in many cases better than American doctors

I was completely shocked when I came to America. It seems like a 3rd world country to me to be honest when it comes to health care. Most unethical pieces of shit I have ever seen. Went to a podiatrist who gave me a brace. Charged me $400 (with insurance, all deductible) for something I found on Amazon for $80. Pieces of shit.

And who really gives a shit if the richest of the rich come to America for an operation? Are you going to be able to afford that operation?
If the care was even half as good as America in those countries the people are still healthier because they don't wait till they are dying to go to the doctor.

Final point, any man in America who is not a millionaire is scared shitless of having some medical emergency that will bankrupt their family. In countries with universal you fear disease, not health care costs.

Never ever ever repeat stupid shit you think you heard and have no understanding of for fcks sake.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
BurtMaklin said:
I might be high, but I'm pretty sure I said I didn't read your post not the other way around. I got to the "authoritarian" mumbo jumbo, and my eyes glazed over.
Click to expand...
You are right. You did say you didn't read my post.

my bad. We've had a lot of Bernie Bros who only read what they want lately. I must have mistaken you for somebody else. Tell me again how forcing a hundred million people from plans they like into Medicare a good idea. Why does it force people? If its so great why would you make them? Oh so not authoritarian.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Sanders proposal to force people into Medicare is politically a dead end and a gift to Republicans. A better opition is to give people the choice to pay for Medicare or private insurance and provide great Medicare coverage. As shown here, a one-size fits all government provided plan without alternatives isn't acceptable to most of the people in this country.

The polls you continue to post are already out of date -- something you are known to do and I'm sure will continue to do because you are an effin liar. The polls you post reflected the opinions of people who didn't understand that Bernie's plan would end private insurance and force them into Medicare. When specifically asked if they support Bernie's plan after learning his plan would end private insurance and move everybody into Medicare, support drops to 37%. It is a losing proposition. People learned during the debates the details of Bernies plan. The next poll about Medicare for all will show plummeting support for Bernie's stupid, amateurish and unfinished plan.
Click to expand...
it's time to end @fogdogs myth..

 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
You are right. You did say you didn't read my post.

my bad. We've had a lot of Bernie Bros who only read what they want lately. I must have mistaken you for somebody else. Tell me again how forcing a hundred million people from plans they like into Medicare a good idea. Why does it force people? If its so great why would you make them? Oh so not authoritarian.
Click to expand...
psssssst..black people don't like Sanders..pass it on..

 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
schuylaar said:
so, so bitter..

Click to expand...
That is all a Bernie supporter needs. I get it. You think a few photos means Bernie has won over the same black voters who gave him less than 30% of their vote. You keep claiming that with mulish determination. Desperate, even.

So, how about Elizabeth Warren? She did great at the debates. Bernie didn't. Too bad for him. Bernie said when asked about Warren's rise in the polls because, "there are a certain number of people who would like to see a woman elected.”

Is Warren the enemy now?
 
D

DaFreak

Well-Known Member
America needs to invest biggly into health care. Buy back the hospitals, hire the best doctors and dictate the price for every drug and procedure. Let there be private care and universal health care co-exist. See how fast private care goes the way of the dinosaur. All the idiots who say, "I like my plan now," can go to the private care.
 
S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
That is all a Bernie supporter needs. I get it. You think a few photos means Bernie has won over the same black voters who gave him less than 30% of their vote. You keep claiming that with mulish determination. Desperate, even.

So, how about Elizabeth Warren? She did great at the debates. Bernie didn't. Too bad for him. Bernie said when asked about Warren's rise in the polls because, "there are a certain number of people who would like to see a woman elected.”

Is Warren the enemy now?
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top