why do you want the government?

ancap

Active Member
government enforced monopolies are not unusual when establishing services... once established, they are sold off...

I don't think anyone here would dispute that our government has continued to grow rapidly since its inception. Something only grows by acquiring more resources, which for the government is money. The only justification the government has for taking more of our money is to continue the expansion in government programs and services. If the government were selling off more services than it was establishing, it would not be growing, so I guess I'm not following the logic of your statement here.
 

ancap

Active Member
I am all for the private sector and capitalism for most things but I think there are certain things where that model just won't work. Things like military, law enforcement, and health care just cant be run without some government involvement. Greed and power are just too tempting for man.
Private security forces have actually been proven to operate much more efficiently than public or state security forces. Same would apply for private police firms. Modern healthcare has not seen a free market yet, so I don't know on what grounds you are basing your comparison on that issue.

If greed and power are too tempting for man, then why would you give a group of them guns and the power to take your money and rule over you?
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Everyone needs to try to stop bossing everyone else around.
Stop pointing guns at eachother.
I know its hard because we all think we know what is best for one another
and when we get in an echo chamber our voices seem really load and wise.
However, try to let your brother make his own choices.
So long as he doesn't steal, defraud, vandalize or harm anyone else.
Its none of your buisness.

If you feel the need to help people great!
Give to a shriners childrens hostpital.
But don't point a gun at someone and tell him to give to it to.

Because thats what you do when you advicate government solutions.
You point guns at people.
You threaten their property, their future prosparity and indeed your own.

Also last time I checked we were already $11 trillion in the hole offically.
We don't have the money to spend on more government failure.
 

ancap

Active Member
Because thats what you do when you advicate government solutions.
You point guns at people.
You threaten their property, their future prosparity and indeed your own.

This is a beautiful statement, but I don't know why you find it acceptable to bend these principles over your knee until they break. According to some other posts of yours that I've read, it seems like you pick and choose where you like your government (others do this on here too). If the statement you made above is true (which I believe it is), then it is true for ALL of government. Pointing guns at people to collect revenue to build roads is evil, even though the act of building roads is essential and not evil. If you block free market solutions for all these supposed "necessary evils" of government, you miss out on a world of true freedom, productive efficiency and consistent application of your ethics.

:peace:
 

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
I for one am not willing to let the country slide into chaos and ruin because its the 'moral' thing to do.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I for one am not willing to let the country slide into chaos and ruin because its the 'moral' thing to do.

If everybody left others alone and associations were voluntary where's the chaos? It seems to me that the chaos is caused by one person or a group of people insisting that other people conform to their ideals or to simpy exert control over them.

I for one am not interested in running anyone's life if they leave me, my property
and others alone. Are you saying it is good to MAKE peacable people conform to something that is contrary to their wishes? How would you do this, would you force them?
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
We only need the government to protect this country from enemies, Protect the rights of the citizens and to enforce contracts. That's pretty much it.
can everyone read this? this is the reason we have government. not to educate our children, babysit the ignorant or heal the lame, but to enforce each man's natural rights and keep things organized so we don't all end up going in different directions at the same time. in nine pages of replies, almost no one seemed to get it. aside from a rather unhealthy obsession with the postal service, y'all are just running around in circles and arguing for the sake of argument.

at this point in time, government is a necessary evil. this doesn't mean that everything it turns its hand to is evil, but that, if given the chance, we should limit the government to basic necessary services instead of allowing it to gain a firmer grasp on the lives of citizens. governments use force simply because they can and force is one of the most inefficient ways of getting anything done. taxation, regulation, governmental monopolization and legislation; all are maintained through the use or threat of the armed might of the state. once force is used to accomplish something, that force must be maintained or anything it accomplished will quickly come undone. the private sector must entice, manipulate or cajole the public into using those services that government simply forces onto us and charges us for whether we use them or not. there are no private armies out there forcing you to eat wheaties or send your packages by fed-ex, it is competition, lower prices and better service that allow these companies to thrive and prosper. a competition that does not exist in government mandated and run programs.

the notion that just because government does something now it can't be done better by the private sector is patently ludicrous. the very idea that government run programs spur the private sector to perform better is just as insane. government programs are antithetical to competition and it is competition that has bred every advancement and innovation we have ever seen. those innovations often mean goods at lower cost, more efficient production and better service, all of which means savings for consumers and a better way of life for everyone. for those of you who that insist on replying that those government services are free or at very low cost, understand that the price you pay is not the total cost when taxpayer funds are used to subsidize those services. the sheer size of the bureaucracy needed to run those programs costs far more than the goods and services provided. a free school lunch costs twice as much its equivalent in the private sector. the price of sending a letter to aunt harvey or uncle grace quickly doubles or triples when we add in the cost of maintaining a postal service that is constantly running in the red. the price of a free public education is astronomical when you consider that mediocrity is the best we can hope for from the average graduate. the government is using more and more outside contractors to maintain our infrastructure, simply because government employees are far too expensive.

now we have a party in power that is telling us to trust them with our health insurance needs and is trying to worm its way further and further into our everyday lives. the question remains - why would we go along with such an obviously absurd idea?
 

maxamus1

Well-Known Member
Hey don't get me wrong I'm glad we have UPS,USPS,FEDEX....the all bring us competition which can get you lower prices, but do you really think for one minute that if you had to have UPS deliver you a piece of mail it would just cost more then 44 cents to send it...hence why I say America needs to have the government get into Americas health care and give the people Health Care For All... lol had to go there ..


is health care fucked up, yes big time. before doctors get out of school pharmaceutical companies are ramming their products down their throat. so they believe that pills and cocktails are the only way to cure something. then they charge an arm and leg for everything they do, ect ect ect.... insurance companies screw you over to save a dollar. will not except you if you have a preexisting condition ect ect ect... we still do not need the government to get involved. we can handle this problem. why do we not have faith in ourselves to handle our own problems? no i do not have a solution but someone does. maybe we should listen more and judge less. give some one the opportunity to try and see what happens.
 

maxamus1

Well-Known Member
i don't know if some took what i originally posted as, but i just want to know why we believe we can not handle our own problems. why we run to the government every time something goes wrong. they are men and women just like us, they are not gods they do not have special powers. we need to rely on our selves more. that's all i am trying to say.
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Ancap nobodys perfect the non aggression principle is hard for people myself included to grasp.
The Constitution is clear on what forms of Taxes are OK and what forms are not.
If you want to drive on roads you pay your gas tax.
I can avoid the Gas tax by riding a bike.
I cannot avoid an income tax drawn from my pay and collected by thugs.
You feel me?

By the way We as a race it seems are drawn to the lure of Government like mothes to a flame.
We all seem programed to want/need some powerful figure to reassure us.
To protect us from the bad things.
Thats why I think people believe they need government.

I wish their were more cases throughout history of governmentless countries.
Only a few Pacific islanders early Ireland and pre-king era, Judges Era Isreal stand as Libertarian esk.
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
The government did not make Murder Illegal. Man did. I do not advocate government not making laws that protect kids, I never said that, your just trying to straw man the argument. By your reasoning would you neglect your child if the government did NOT have a law against it? If there was no law against murder, would you go around murdering? well would you? I don't think we need a law telling us we need to take care of our kids, it should be a natural instinct, just as we know that murdering others is wrong even if there is no law against it. Thats my argument, but your argument is that if there were no laws against doing bad things that people would just go ape shit doing bad things. Have some faith in your Neighbor.
lmfao there are many many people alive today only because it is illegal to kill them lol you really made me chuckle with this keep it up :P
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
i don't know if some took what i originally posted as, but i just want to know why we believe we can not handle our own problems. why we run to the government every time something goes wrong. they are men and women just like us, they are not gods they do not have special powers. we need to rely on our selves more. that's all i am trying to say.
Oh I understand what you are saying, but look at it this way ...Government makes laws ..without it would you still have laws ????? Government assures its people of having equal rights..Take away government you would have people doing whatever they wanted to....mankind is not one that I would trust to just do the right thing without laws telling him/her that it is wrong and you will pay a price if you do it...Hell the south would still have people drinking from different water fountains if the government ( and its people ) had not stopped it...Yes people started the civil rights era and the goverment made laws to assure that we all have our civil rights...Read about the Little Rock 9 ( to understand what I am saying about having and keeping our FEDERAL GOVERNMENT...)
 

ancap

Active Member
Ancap nobodys perfect the non aggression principle is hard for people myself included to grasp.
The Constitution is clear on what forms of Taxes are OK and what forms are not.
If you want to drive on roads you pay your gas tax.
I can avoid the Gas tax by riding a bike.
I cannot avoid an income tax drawn from my pay and collected by thugs.
You feel me?
First of all, we should note that we are most likely in 90% agreement with each other, from what I can read here. It's the 10% that makes a big difference.

I'm not trying to be condescending, but the non-aggression principle is something most children can understand. It states: Repect other people's property, and don't hurt people unless they are trying to hurt you. That's it.

I do understand the difference between direct and indirect taxation. The bottom line is, any form of taxation requires an enforcement arm. You don't pay up, you go to jail. This violates the non-aggression principle. I cannot advocate for a system of collecting revenue that uses violent force on people. The solution is to get rid of the thugs monopolizing our roads. The solution is not, "Go ride a bike."
 

pluto420

Active Member
Private security forces have actually been proven to operate much more efficiently than public or state security forces. Same would apply for private police firms. Modern healthcare has not seen a free market yet, so I don't know on what grounds you are basing your comparison on that issue.

If greed and power are too tempting for man, then why would you give a group of them guns and the power to take your money and rule over you?

As I stated in my post.. its just my opinion. I just feel that when it comes to health you need to have some regulation and if you leave it go just with private sector then you have people in suits denying you healthcare. They pay bonues to people to deny claims. That is wrong. Been happening to me for years and despite having insurance I am in deep debt because insurance doesn't pay most of the time and when I pay, I am paying outrageous prices. Recent hospital stay.. I was charged $25 for a piece of gauze. Crazy! I would love to not have government be involved but I just dont think the current system works well and I can guarantee the insurance industry is not going to be eager to change it left to its own choice.

In regards to guns/enforcement. I guess I trust our government to do the right thing for people than I do from some corporation. Not a lot more... but more.
 

ancap

Active Member
As I stated in my post.. its just my opinion. I just feel that when it comes to health you need to have some regulation ---- Recent hospital stay.. I was charged $25 for a piece of gauze. Crazy!
You are exactly right. Society needs regulation, even a stateless society. I guarantee that you would have not been charged $25 for a piece of gauze in a true free market. Overpriced hospitals would go out of business.

In regards to guns/enforcement. I guess I trust our government to do the right thing for people than I do from some corporation. Not a lot more... but more.
I think you may be confusing corporatism and corporate predation with real businesses. Corporate predation in a true free market will not last very long as customers will refuse to do business with an organization that rips them off. It is only the combination of large corporations and government that causes the types of problems you are asserting.
 

ancap

Active Member
I for one am not willing to let the country slide into chaos and ruin because its the 'moral' thing to do.
Sure, it's like the survival exception. It is immoral for you to break into my house and steal my food, but if you are literally dying of starvation, it is a perfectly valid strategy for you to break into my house and steal my food. Likewise, if I really thought what I was advocating was chaos, even if it was the moral thing to do, I would not advocate for that change. Surviving is more important than adhering to an ethical principle.

What I am advocating for is not chaos. If you are truly curious to understand what a stateless society might look like and to have some of your concerns addressed, I will be happy to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
 

hom36rown

Well-Known Member
The biggest problem with a stateless society is no taxes. You aren't going to get much revenue if 'taxes' are voluntary, Especially since a lot of rich people would probably hightail it the fuck outta here. It cost billions of dollars to pay for the infrastructure necessary for us to not be a complete hell hole. Are we really going to have enough money in your stateless society to buy tomahawk cruise missles and F-16s...and feed, clothe and arm a decent sized military...and yes we NEED these things to provide for our defense.

Do you think people in south central are going to pull enough money together voluntarily to hire a private police force? The Gangs would have a field day.

Are we going to have enough money to maintain prisons, because we certainly are going to need a lot fuckin more of them, especially when the all the former welfare recipients start to get hungry.

Ahh I can see it now, the super rich own the police, they own the judges, they own the jails...they basically have unlimited power. Get in their way, and their police force will arrest you, their judges will convict you, and their jails will lock you in the hole and throw away the key.

Who makes the laws in a stateless society? You anarchists/voluntaryists are always saying, well if they don't infringe upon the rights of others...so in your stateless society it is perfectly ok to fuck a corpse in front of a elementary school?

Thats enough for now, but there is a billion problems with a stateless society.
 

ancap

Active Member
home36rown,

I apologize for not being able to vomit out a short answer here. This is the best I could do, and I would still consider it cliff notes.



The biggest problem with a stateless society is no taxes. You aren't going to get much revenue if 'taxes' are voluntary, Especially since a lot of rich people would probably hightail it the fuck outta here.
First off, because a tax is something which is levied, there can be no taxation in a stateless society. Apple doesn't have to tax you for their service. If you do not want to purchase an iphone, you can go to a competitor and purchase another phone with similar features. This purchase would be a voluntary transaction, not a tax.

It cost billions of dollars to pay for the infrastructure necessary for us to not be a complete hell hole. Are we really going to have enough money in your stateless society to buy tomahawk cruise missles and F-16s...and feed, clothe and arm a decent sized military...and yes we NEED these things to provide for our defense.
It cost hundreds of millions of dollars to develop the iphone, yet not a single tax was necessary for Apple to levy to bring this product to market. Taxes are not a necessary component to building and maintaining roads and a military (which in a stateless society would be MUCH smaller than our current legions of worldwide military might).

Do you think people in south central are going to pull enough money together voluntarily to hire a private police force? The Gangs would have a field day.
This is a great, thought provoking question. You first need to realize (which Im sure you already do) that the vast majority of community violence is brought about by governmental central planning and prohibition of drugs. The government essentially created the ghettos and gangs.

The next element to consider is the current status quo. Reading between the lines, you seem to presume that these "ghettos" are currently being patrolled and protected properly by our current police system, though I'm sure you know there are some communities where the police just do not enter.

Examing the environment of a stateless society, you see several elements take shape when it comes to the protection of low income communities...

1. There will be no central planning, and no government welfare which creates more poverty than it prevents. No addiction to government subsidies. No subsidized housing, which gives impoversished renters little market choice for where they live.

2. No gang violence associated with drugs and prostitution which would have a legitimate place in the free market.

3. No taxation which allows an abundance of wealth that was wasted frivolously by the government, to be used to create more jobs and thus more prosperity. Blue collar workers take home 100% of their earnings without being subjected to withholdings.

4. All property is privately owned, thus the homes, apartments and condos that the "poor" are renting will have a privately contracted security company hired by the landlords to ensure the safety of their property and tenants. Because the landlords are accountable to their customers (tenants), they will be incentivized to provide a reasonable amount of security to the community. If they do not, their tenants will move elsewhere, to a community where the landlords do provide such security.

5. There is even more nuance than this, but I think this should get us on the same page with the rational behind low income security in a stateless society. Let me know if you'd like me to continue.

Are we going to have enough money to maintain prisons, because we certainly are going to need a lot fuckin more of them, especially when the all the former welfare recipients start to get hungry.
You are right in asserting that once welfare is cut off from the recipients, the results will be analogous to a drug addict in detox. This is a transitional factor that should be thought out and debated, but the answer is not to continue giving drugs to the addict.

Hypothetically, if prisons continued to be run similarly in a stateless society, you would see several trends including...

1. 50% less inmates just from the "legalization" of drugs, prostitution, and violations of drug related probation. Plus, a large percentage of less inmates from the violent criminal category as a byproduct of this legalization.

2. The replacement of prison sentences with civil penalties and ecomomic deterrents, which are proven far more effective than putting people behind bars, given our 80% reciticism rate. Prison is not an effective rehab. It's a revolving door. In a stateless society you would not want your social credit score effected to the point where you cannot enter into contracts with people, thus people are even more incentivized to not "break rules".

3. Again, I can continue if you want me to dig into this more deeply. This issue is much more nuanced, and I can explain why many prisons would hold people on voluntary sentences, as counter-intuitive as that sounds.

Who makes the laws in a stateless society? You anarchists/voluntaryists are always saying, well if they don't infringe upon the rights of others...
There will not be "laws" in the sense that the creators of these "laws" will hold a monopoly of force to impose these laws on society.

To participate productively in the free market (rent/buy a house, have a job, own a business, purchase a car, etc.) which over 99% of the population will want to do, you cannot live "off the grid". Now that government is not around, we will see businesses pop up that I'll call DRO's for the sake of argument (Dispute Resolution Organizations). These businesses operate much like insurance companies, and everyone who wants to participate in society will need to be covered at various affordable rates.

These insurance companies would cooperate through interoperability like we see in many industries today. This ensures a universalization of protection in accordance to the non-aggression principle (dont hurt people unless they are trying to hurt you - same assurance for property) which the majority of their customers would want guaranteed. If you hurt someone (speaking very simply here) and are found guilty, your DRO would penalize you with higher rates or more severe punishments in accordance to your agreement with them, depending on the severity of the crime.

so in your stateless society it is perfectly ok to fuck a corpse in front of a elementary school?
In a free society, one would be allowed to fuck a corpse anywhere where corpse fucking is allowed, or on one's own property. If the corpse you are fucking was taken from private property, you would be penalized by your DRO for trespassing on private property and theft. If the particular school you are corpse fucking in front of allows corpse fucking, then you would be allowed to fuck the corpse in front of the children. However, I doubt any school would permit you to do such a thing on their property. I also doubt the company who owns the road you might be standing on has bylaws permitting corpse fucking.


Ahh I can see it now, the super rich own the police, they own the judges, they own the jails...they basically have unlimited power. Get in their way, and their police force will arrest you, their judges will convict you, and their jails will lock you in the hole and throw away the key.
By super rich, you might be referring to successful entrepreneurs and capital investors. Yes, these people would most likely own the security companies and DRO's. However, just like every company today, they are accountable directly to their customers. If they screw their customers or become corrupt, no one will do business with them and the business will collapse. Don't confuse corporatism and corporate predation with real business. The former is only possible when government and big business collide.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Fucking a corpse in front of an elementary school? That's not a very appealing image, I'll grant you. So if there is no government suddenly public corpse fucking will become the rage? I don't think so.

What's an even less appealing image is all of the bloodied rotting bodies of children that have died as a result of wars that were state sponsored. I'm not sure which military coined the phrase, but I believe "collateral damage" is the term used when innocent people can't run faster than bombs or bullets.
 
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