Your logic is dizzying

cannabineer · Dec 29, 2012

st0wandgrow said:
A constitutional amendment may be what ends up happening.

I would venture a guess that if that list of proposals were put before the American public, the majority would vote in favor of it.

Californians voted 6 to 1 for a truly bad law. I invite you to read, really read, Prop 35. I trust Americans to vote for Pol Pot if he was sold hard enough. The popularity of a measure can be entirely divorced from its soundness by leaning on the lever on the emotional side of an issue.
And the gun control advocates are the single biggest collection of emotion manipulators in today's dizzyingly target-rich media landscape. They've got us so conditioned that whenever they ride a spree shooter story into the ground and still give spur ... we don't even need to be told the phrase "think of the children!" in order to think it, then trot it out on a myriad blogs and walls. cn

Harrekin · Dec 29, 2012

st0wandgrow said:
1 gun death per year per 100,000 in Ireland.

10 gun deaths per year per 100,000 in the United States.

You may not feel it's not working where you live, but by comparison it's a smashing success.

Look at overall violent crime statistics, you'll see a previously ignored parity begin to reveal itself.

cannabineer · Dec 29, 2012

st0wandgrow said:
1 gun death per year per 100,000 in Ireland.

10 gun deaths per year per 100,000 in the United States.

You may not feel it's not working where you live, but by comparison it's a smashing success.

You also need to figure violent crime in. The playing field's tilt reverses. cn

st0wandgrow · Dec 29, 2012

cannabineer said:
Californians voted 6 to 1 for a truly bad law. I invite you to read, really read, Prop 35. I trust Americans to vote for Pol Pot if he was sold hard enough. The popularity of a measure can be entirely divorced from its soundness by leaning on the lever on the emotional side of an issue.
And the gun control advocates are the single biggest collection of emotion manipulators in today's dizzyingly target-rich media landscape. They've got us so conditioned that whenever they ride a spree shooter story into the ground and still give spur ... we don't even need to be told the phrase "think of the children!" in order to think it, then trot it out on a myriad blogs and walls. cn

I suppose it's the price we pay for living in a representative democracy.

Until we mandate voters have a basic understanding of what (or who) they are voting for, the ignorant still have an equal say.

kelly4 · Dec 29, 2012

cannabineer said:
You can't mandate it either.

Exactly....

cannabineer · Dec 29, 2012

Harrekin said:
Public disarmament is one of the primary objectives of an authoritarian state. It's no wonder the left advocate for it so vigorously.

A plurality of Americans refuse to see or admit to an authoritarian motive behind Common-Sense Legislation. What gives me pause is how very little of the complaint about authoritarian motive comes from our country's left. Does a socialist sentiment go hand in hand with trusting big brother? cn

Harrekin · Dec 29, 2012

st0wandgrow said:
I suppose it's the price we pay for living in a representative democracy.

Until we mandate voters have a basic understanding of what (or who) they are voting for, the ignorant still have an equal say.

And you've just revealed the absolute number 1 problem with Democracy.

kelly4 · Dec 29, 2012

st0wandgrow said:
10 gun deaths per year per 100,000 in the United States.

6 of those 10 are by suicide...not murder.

cannabineer · Dec 29, 2012

st0wandgrow said:
I suppose it's the price we pay for living in a representative democracy.

Until we mandate voters have a basic understanding of what (or who) they are voting for, the ignorant still have an equal say.

I don't think you can effectively mandate that. Every time a law is proposed, a good mental exercise would be "who will game this, how, and to what effect?"

Also, the Constitution was written in such a way as to seek to mitigate just what you said about a representative democracy. The amount of damage that can be done in an unrestrained democracy by misleading the people once has been shown in 20C Europe to tremendous effect. I for one do not accept that sort of price. cn

st0wandgrow · Dec 29, 2012

Harrekin said:
And you've just revealed the absolute number 1 problem with Democracy.

How else would George W Bush become the leader of the free world? :-)

Harrekin · Dec 29, 2012

cannabineer said:
A plurality of Americans refuse to see or admit to an authoritarian motive behind Common-Sense Legislation. What gives me pause is how very little of the complaint about authoritarian motive comes from our country's left. Does a socialist sentiment go hand in hand with trusting big brother? cn

The left and right seem too into "personality politics", they always support "their side" even if the ideas are stupid.

If more people sat in the centre (basically Libertarianism applied in a practical way to the "real world") we wouldn't have any of these problems.

desert dude · Dec 29, 2012

st0wandgrow said:
I suppose it's the price we pay for living in a representative democracy.

Until we mandate voters have a basic understanding of what (or who) they are voting for, the ignorant still have an equal say.

And that is the main reason to have a written constitution, and the main argument against the notion of a "living constitution". It is hard to change, so the ignoramuses and the crafty sociopaths who herd them have a difficult time ruining the country, though they try mightily.

Because we have a written constitution, all of these "common sense" gun control laws are invalid. Ignore, or "reinterpret" the constitution at your great peril.

cannabineer · Dec 29, 2012

Harrekin said:
The left and right seem too into "personality politics", they always support "their side" even if the ideas are stupid.

If more people sat in the centre (basically Libertarianism applied in a practical way to the "real world") we wouldn't have any of these problems.

I consider myself a centrist. I don't find much hope in libertarian thinking however. Libertarianism is like a chain, and too many links have been removed early on. One can commit to an individualist (libertarian) social model or to a socialistic one, and one cannot run both concomitantly. Socialistic systems have built-in early rewards that tend to mesmerize just the sort of voter over whom DD and St0w are arguing. We've tried'em and drunk the Kool-Aid in this country, for better and for worse. It's very very hard to return to the more naturally austere libertarian ethic once the masses have tasted socialism. We're committed imo, so the argument is now more one of mitigating socialism's excesses, of seeing if we even can.

My own moral stance is complicated by my being on SSDI. I survive because the State pays me. So i find myself in the position of having to admit that the social structure with the better chance at long-term continuity would have probably killed me.

Not that any of that will stop me from grousing about the wholly inadequate benefits increase this year. cn

Harrekin · Dec 29, 2012

cannabineer said:
I consider myself a centrist. I don't find much hope in libertarian thinking however. Libertarianism is like a chain, and too many links have been removed early on. One can commit to an individualist (libertarian) social model or to a socialistic one, and one cannot run both concomitantly. Socialistic systems have built-in early rewards that tend to mesmerize just the sort of voter over whom DD and St0w are arguing. We've tried'em and drunk the Kool-Aid in this country, for better and for worse. It's very very hard to return to the more naturally austere libertarian ethic once the masses have tasted socialism. We're committed imo, so the argument is now more one of mitigating socialism's excesses, of seeing if we even can.

My own moral stance is complicated by my being on SSDI. I survive because the State pays me. So i find myself in the position of having to admit that the social structure with the better chance at long-term continuity would have probably killed me.

Not that any of that will stop me from grousing about the wholly inadequate benefits increase this year. cn

And you're exactly the person a practical thinking libertarian would gladly look after in their streamlined social programmes.

"Purist Libertarians" are as dangerous as "Purist Socialists" and so on, but their main error is always thinking in absolutes.

Look at the recent school shooting, the left says "ban gunz!" (The z is because they're "hip"), the right says "more guns!" whereas in reality the true lasting solution is (somewhere) in the centre.

kelly4 · Dec 29, 2012

Harrekin said:
And you're exactly the person a practical thinking libertarian would gladly look after in their streamlined social programmes.

"Purist Libertarians" are as dangerous as "Purist Socialists" and so on, but their main error is always thinking in absolutes.

Look at the recent school shooting, the left says "ban gunz!" (The z is because they're "hip"), the right says "more guns!" whereas in reality the true lasting solution is (somewhere) in the centre.

The answer is in France? :-|

Harrekin · Dec 29, 2012

kelly4 said:
The answer is in France?

The French are Socialists and not even good at it.

If youve ever visited the suburbs of Paris, you'd know the wonders of socialism arnt so wonderful.

Canna Sylvan · Dec 29, 2012

The real solution is ban all guns and take them away from criminals. The only one with guns should be me. Not even the police or military. That solution is somewhere in the middle.

Harrekin · Dec 29, 2012

Canna Sylvan said:
The real solution is ban all guns and take them away from criminals. The only one with guns should be me. Not even the police or military. That solution is somewhere in the middle.

Or we could make dying of a gunshot wound illegal.

Thatd show them.

UncleBuck · Dec 29, 2012

desert dude said:
And that is the main reason to have a written constitution, and the main argument against the notion of a "living constitution". It is hard to change, so the ignoramuses and the crafty sociopaths who herd them have a difficult time ruining the country, though they try mightily.

Because we have a written constitution, all of these "common sense" gun control laws are invalid. Ignore, or "reinterpret" the constitution at your great peril.

i could eat a can of creamed corn, take a wild coffee and cigarette shit, throw up on it, and it would still make more sense than what you just blathered about.

kelly4 · Dec 29, 2012

Harrekin said:
The French are Socialists and not even good at it.

If youve ever visited the suburbs of Paris, you'd know the wonders of socialism arnt so wonderful.

Just wondering...you're the one who said it's in the centre.

Your logic is dizzying

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