Winterization Pro Question

[Dgringo69]

What are the negatives, if any, to pouring freezing ethanol into 140f whole plant extraction?
I just poured 270ml of 30f ethanol into 27g of 140f extract and noticed right away, a lot of accumulation...see pic

 

[Dgringo69]

I’ve stumbled upon something good...or something bad

 

[Lund-o]

What are you extracting with?

 

[Dgringo69]

What are you extracting with?

Iso99
My extractions are for medical oral use

 

[DemonTrich]

Why mix ethanol and iso??

 

[Dgringo69]

Why mix ethanol and iso??

I don’t mix iso and ethanol.
The extraction of the decarb flower is done with iso due to its selective properties.
Then the iso is evaporated off at 140f.
The extract is then vac purged at 140f.
At this time I winterize the vac purged extract.
Normally I would add warm ethanol at this point, blend well, put the product in the freezer for 48 hrs, filter the fats/waxes out, evaporate the ethanol at 140f, vac purge again, and the extract is done...ready to be mixed into mct or what have you for customers.
This time instead of pouring warm ethanol into my warm extract, I poured freezing ethanol into my warm extract. I am simply wondering if the creates damage on a molecular level due to rapid temp change.

 

[curious2garden]

I don’t mix iso and ethanol.
The extraction of the decarb flower is done with iso due to its selective properties.
Then the iso is evaporated off at 140f.
The extract is then vac purged at 140f.
At this time I winterize the vac purged extract.
Normally I would add warm ethanol at this point, blend well, put the product in the freezer for 48 hrs, filter the fats/waxes out, evaporate the ethanol at 140f, vac purge again, and the extract is done...ready to be mixed into mct or what have you for customers.
This time instead of pouring warm ethanol into my warm extract, I poured freezing ethanol into my warm extract. I am simply wondering if the creates damage on a molecular level due to rapid temp change.

@cannabineer we were just discussing this topic. Can you check out the bolded, thanks.

 

[cannabineer]

I don’t mix iso and ethanol.
The extraction of the decarb flower is done with iso due to its selective properties.
Then the iso is evaporated off at 140f.
The extract is then vac purged at 140f.
At this time I winterize the vac purged extract.
Normally I would add warm ethanol at this point, blend well, put the product in the freezer for 48 hrs, filter the fats/waxes out, evaporate the ethanol at 140f, vac purge again, and the extract is done...ready to be mixed into mct or what have you for customers.
This time instead of pouring warm ethanol into my warm extract, I poured freezing ethanol into my warm extract. I am simply wondering if the creates damage on a molecular level due to rapid temp change.

I don't think there is any risk of damage at the molecular level. However, removing an alcohol solvent will alter the terpene profile of your extract. The light monoterpenes tend to co-evaporate with the lower alcohols. Especially at the 140F/60C you're using.

But I do not think that adding cold ethanol to a warm extract does any harm at all.

I am curious as to why you choose to winterize an iso extract. At what temp do you extract? Do you get significant precipitated waxes from the cold EtOH step?

Also, what is mct?

 

[Dgringo69]

I don't think there is any risk of damage at the molecular level. However, removing an alcohol solvent will alter the terpene profile of your extract. The light monoterpenes tend to co-evaporate with the lower alcohols. Especially at the 140F/60C you're using.

But I do not think that adding cold ethanol to a warm extract does any harm at all.

I am curious as to why you choose to winterize an iso extract. At what temp do you extract? Do you get significant precipitated waxes from the cold EtOH step?

Also, what is mct?

Thanks for the reply,
As for terpenes, I do try to maintain as many as possible but whether you decarb the flower before extraction or decarb the extraction later, terps will be lost at the step, so my extraction and evap temps aren't truly my concern. I create individualized medicine so I am always adding back terps into my finished extract per the customers needs. I decarb the flower at 240f for 45 min. I do the decarb at flower stage because it makes the flower much easier to break up for extraction. I know all of this makes a recreational extractor cringe, I have dabbled in shatter for a number of years and bubble hash before that so I do understand that low temps are your friend in respect to this process. I am beginning to winterize the iso extract because of large amounts of precipitation in the bottom of my storage jars once the extract has been mixed into a carrier such as olive oil or mct (medium chain triglycerides from coconut oil). My extracts are obviously for oral consumption. If I was simply making a RSO style concentrate that was not mixed into a carrier then I would def not worry about winterizing. When you are dealing with accurate dosing, especially in small dose amounts, you must add your extract to a carrier. For example, 1 drop of concentrate could be too much for a patient trying to relieve spasticity so you make the product at a 10/1 carrier/concentrate ratio so that one drop of the final product equals 1/10th drop of the concentrated product. I do get a good amount of waxes from the cold filter step.

 

[cannabineer]

Thanks for the reply,
As for terpenes, I do try to maintain as many as possible but whether you decarb the flower before extraction or decarb the extraction later, terps will be lost at the step, so my extraction and evap temps aren't truly my concern. I create individualized medicine so I am always adding back terps into my finished extract per the customers needs. I decarb the flower at 240f for 45 min. I do the decarb at flower stage because it makes the flower much easier to break up for extraction. I know all of this makes a recreational extractor cringe, I have dabbled in shatter for a number of years and bubble hash before that so I do understand that low temps are your friend in respect to this process. I am beginning to winterize the iso extract because of large amounts of precipitation in the bottom of my storage jars once the extract has been mixed into a carrier such as olive oil or mct (medium chain triglycerides from coconut oil). My extracts are obviously for oral consumption. If I was simply making a RSO style concentrate that was not mixed into a carrier then I would def not worry about winterizing. When you are dealing with accurate dosing, especially in small dose amounts, you must add your extract to a carrier. For example, 1 drop of concentrate could be too much for a patient trying to relieve spasticity so you make the product at a 10/1 carrier/concentrate ratio so that one drop of the final product equals 1/10th drop of the concentrated product. I do get a good amount of waxes from the cold filter step.

To the bolded: Oh I feel you. I am always astonished at the new and creative ways autodidact hobby "chemists" find to ruin a simple process. It is professionally offensive to me.

Since I do not sell, I imagine you could classify me as a recreational extractor. However, I did put my time in: five years grad school in organic chemistry, postdoc at two schools whose name you'd recognize at once, and eleven years at (big-name company) pulling back the foreskin of science (as my Swiss boss put it) in the service of a number of therapeutic targets. I can read a nomogram, perform a serial dilution in the dark, smell carbonyl groups and find the best solvents for reaction and recrystallization on a millimole-to-multimole scale.

But yeah, I am a recreational extractor.

I am again curious. How do you work to spare your terpenes, and do you have any analytical data to show terpene content and ratios before and after your hot step? I am always keen to pick up any tricks and pointers I can get toward sparing the terpenes.

The next question I have is: Since you are redissolving your extract in medium-chain triglycerides (which are excellent wax solvents) why do you need to "winterize" or, in the professional vernacular, dewax your iso extract? That seems like a redundant step to me, especially since waxes are of no consequence in an edible preparation.

 

[curious2garden]

Thanks for the reply,
.....snip......I am beginning to winterize the iso extract because of large amounts of precipitation in the bottom of my storage jars once the extract has been mixed into a carrier such as olive oil or mct (medium chain triglycerides from coconut oil). My extracts are obviously for oral consumption.

Wow so much unnecessary work. To make a potent edible, mix 1:10 weight ratio (e.g. 15 grams flower to 150 grams oil), of flower to coconut oil in a mason jar sealed tightly. Place in a crock pot, add boiling water to cover and turn crock pot on high for 4 hours. Decarb and extract in one motion, simply filter the finished product to remove the vegetable matter and you're done. You can obviously dilute with more coconut oil if necessary. Wax is easily ignored by our digestive tracts.

PS I do not do any actual extraction. Instead CN produces these for me, pure distillate.

 

[Dgringo69]

To the bolded: Oh I feel you. I am always astonished at the new and creative ways autodidact hobby "chemists" find to ruin a simple process.

Since I do not sell, I imagine you could classify me as a recreational extractor. However, I did put my time in: five years grad school in organic chemistry, postdoc at two schools whose name you'd recognize at once, and eleven years at (big-name company) pulling back the foreskin of science (as my Swiss boss put it) in the service of a number of therapeutic targets. I can read a nomogram, perform a serial dilution in the dark, smell carbonyl groups and find the best solvents for reaction and recrystallization on a millimole-to-multimole scale.

But yeah, I am a recreational extractor.

I am again curious. How do you work to spare your terpenes, and do you have any analytical data to show terpene content and ratios before and after your hot step? I am always keen to pick up any tricks and pointers I can get toward sparing the terpenes.

The next question I have is: Since you are redissolving your extract in medium-chain triglycerides (which are excellent wax solvents) why do you need to "winterize" or, in the professional vernacular, dewax your iso extract? That seems like a redundant step to me, especially since waxes are of no consequence in an edible preparation.

 

[Dgringo69]

Honestly, I don't do a lot to preserve original terps for a couple of reasons, my flower selection is limited (i am unable to shop for terpene profiles for each customer) so this is why I concentrate on the reintroduction of terps later per the persons needs. I usually just work with two chemovars at a time..one type 1 (high THC low CBD) and one type 3 (high CBD low TCH) aka hemp. I can then blend the two extractions into the appropriate ratios needed by the end user. I am in Texas where there is no legit testing available so I am unable to test terps before and after extractions. I am in a sense flying in the dark and rely on experience and anecdotal evidence and testimonials from other folks with like experiences to create base doses in order to later modify the doses per the individuals experience. Once again, slightly cringe worthy, but these methods were known as medicine pre technology. I certainly wasn't calling names when mentioning "recreational", I was just referring to the quality of the experience of the end user when it comes to taste and smell of the product. You are obviously formally educated and I appreciate the time you are spending here.

 

[Dgringo69]

Wow so much unnecessary work. To make a potent edible, mix 1:10 weight ratio (e.g. 15 grams flower to 150 grams oil), of flower to coconut oil in a mason jar sealed tightly. Place in a crock pot, add boiling water to cover and turn crock pot on high for 4 hours. Decarb and extract in one motion, simply filter the finished product to remove the vegetable matter and you're done. You can obviously dilute with more coconut oil if necessary. Wax is easily ignored by our digestive tracts.

PS I do not do any actual extraction. Instead CN produces these for me, pure distillate.
View attachment 4256589

This is not unnecessary,
the reason i do not extract directly into the final carrier is because I also make a number of topical products that require a 1:2 concentrate:carrier ratio and I base my prices per 1000mg of extract. I also like to have the ability to sell my extraction by the undiluted gram. I also feel that too much is left to guess at when it comes to dosing in the process you mentioned. No, I cannot test my product, but I assume a 60% potency in all of my whole plant decarb extracts, which may be wrong and certainly has fluctuation chemovar to chemovar but as long as I have a consistent baseline product then I am able to expand from there.

 

[cannabineer]

Plea

Honestly, I don't do a lot to preserve original terps for a couple of reasons, my flower selection is limited (i am unable to shop for terpene profiles for each customer) so this is why I concentrate on the reintroduction of terps later per the persons needs. I usually just work with two chemovars at a time..one type 1 (high THC low CBD) and one type 3 (high CBD low TCH) aka hemp. I can then blend the two extractions into the appropriate ratios needed by the end user. I am in Texas where there is no legit testing available so I am unable to test terps before and after extractions. I am in a sense flying in the dark and rely on experience and anecdotal evidence and testimonials from other folks with like experiences to create base doses in order to later modify the doses per the individuals experience. Once again, slightly cringe worthy, but these methods were known as medicine pre technology. I certainly wasn't calling names when mentioning "recreational", I was just referring to the quality of the experience of the end user when it comes to taste and smell of the product. You are obviously formally educated and I appreciate the time you are spending here.

I encourage you to consider Annie's recommendation (for your end use) on how to make a coconut extract without intermediate solvent/blasting steps.

She called me over because she recognized a chemistry question, and that is sort of my thing. We are a team; she grows and I extract and distill.

I will say this: medicinal chemistry began when someone found a way to analyze and standardize a plant extract. Back then it was digitalis, which is a very useful cardiotonic but has a narrow therapeutic range. For the low-resource Cannabis manipulator, especially in a state without any "legal" pretense, it is hard to recruit the necessary analytical chemistry talent needed to be able to tell the customer how much active ingredient is there.

I have the professional background to do an impeccable extraction, but I don't do much analytical work. I'm a bench monkey by nature. In my state (California) analytical services are available, but expensive ... and they do not necessarily offer the analyses in which I am interested.

Full circle: I think you might find benefit in doing direct lipid extracts as Annie suggests. She learned it from a biochemist whose expertise I recognize and respect.

 

[Lund-o]

Wow so much unnecessary work. To make a potent edible, mix 1:10 weight ratio (e.g. 15 grams flower to 150 grams oil), of flower to coconut oil in a mason jar sealed tightly. Place in a crock pot, add boiling water to cover and turn crock pot on high for 4 hours. Decarb and extract in one motion, simply filter the finished product to remove the vegetable matter and you're done. You can obviously dilute with more coconut oil if necessary. Wax is easily ignored by our digestive tracts.

PS I do not do any actual extraction. Instead CN produces these for me, pure distillate.
View attachment 4256589

have you had these tested for potency? Curious the thc%

 

[Dgringo69]

Plea

I encourage you to consider Annie's recommendation (for your end use) on how to make a coconut extract without intermediate solvent/blasting steps.

She called me over because she recognized a chemistry question, and that is sort of my thing. We are a team; she grows and I extract and distill.

I will say this: medicinal chemistry began when someone found a way to analyze and standardize a plant extract. Back then it was digitalis, which is a very useful cardiotonic but has a narrow therapeutic range. For the low-resource Cannabis manipulator, especially in a state without any "legal" pretense, it is hard to recruit the necessary analytical chemistry talent needed to be able to tell the customer how much active ingredient is there.

I have the professional background to do an impeccable extraction, but I don't do much analytical work. I'm a bench monkey by nature. In my state (California) analytical services are available, but expensive ... and they do not necessarily offer the analyses in which I am interested.

Full circle: I think you might find benefit in doing direct lipid extracts as Annie suggests. She learned it from a biochemist whose expertise I recognize and respect.

I am certainly all ears I didn’t get to where I am by doing all the talking. I listed to Dr. Ethan Russo on a daily but he offers nothing on the extraction end. I want to know more about what Annie has to say, my main concern with this method is obviously loosing accuracy but if I can create a safer, more cost effective end product then everyone wins! Annie, I would be honored if you would spend some time with me here.

 

[Dgringo69]

Here is the pic of the fallout that I am trying to prevent. This is from 24oz of blended product (8g extract to 100ml carrier)

 

[cannabineer]

I am certainly all ears I didn’t get to where I am by doing all the talking. I listed to Dr. Ethan Russo on a daily but he offers nothing on the extraction end. I want to know more about what Annie has to say, my main concern with this method is obviously loosing accuracy but if I can create a safer, more cost effective end product then everyone wins! Annie, I would be honored if you would spend some time with me here.

If by accuracy you mean knowing how much medicine is in the final mix, that would require analysis of the intermediate extract.
I think it is safe to figure good extracts as being 80 to 95%, but getting a finer read requires ongoing analytical involvement.
So I contend that losing a spurious accuracy milestone is offset by the much fewer processing steps in Annie's suggested method.

 

[cannabineer]

Here is the pic of the fallout that I am trying to prevent. This is from 24oz of blended product (8g extract to 100ml carrier)

I see much vegetable matter. I would look to filtration of your iso extract (up front) as a better step than a full-tilt-boogie dewax step (afterward).

If you go to direct coconut oil extraction, such heartache will be a thing of the past.