Get your Geek on and control your grow room with Arduino!

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Well I was wrong, apologies, lol, smh... You have had it correct all along!
OK. Good to know. Basically once I know that diode will work I can start planning to move it over to the PCB and have a go at soldering it up. I think the glue gun will come in handy for that endeavor.

Just took an old portable phone base apart and found a few diodes in there. Fire up the soldering iron and get them out so I can read the #s. Black ones with a grey band. Fingers crossed. :)

:peace:
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
@OldMedUser I was wondering what is this circuit going to do also?
Why not just use the correct size adapter to the electrodes...maybe add a fuse too if its just a safety thing.
I've read a few posts on making CS and as long as the amperage isn't really high pretty much any voltage from 9 to 28 seems to work.
One guy used 3 x 9 volt batteries...if memory serves me correct...lol
It's to regulate the power to the silver anode so that only nano sized silver ions are produced. I'm using a 29v wall wart for a PS. Can't find it atm but a similar one I have at hand is 24v, 417mA. They are both power supplies for the wifi antenna like the one on my roof.

You can use the 9v batteries to get 27v but those suckers are expensive so a PS is better.
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
Total wash on that Shaw box. Probably lots of diodes in there but all those tiny surface mount ones so no use to me.

The descriptions of the 1N914B on that web page lead me to believe that I can use it.

SMALL SIGNAL SWITCHING DIODE
500mW 100 Volt Silicon Epitaxial Diode
75mA Axial Leaded High Speed Switching Diodes
Small Signal Diode (lots of those)

Would be nice to know what kind of readings to expect once it's all hooked up with power supplied so I can confirm it's working correctly. Guess I'll have to make some CS and see if it passes the laser pointer test and the ppm rises over time once I actually solder this all up and give it the smoke test.
Idk what you're building comepletely but if your cct demonstrates the same characteristics as the example from the datasheet, you should create a constant current source of about 3mA regardless of temp change (to a degree, lol pun intended!) with the cct posted.
Screenshot_2020-01-17-18-49-49~2.png
View attachment 4458847

Most relevant equation is:

(Iset) = (0.134V)/(R1)

Iset is the current you desire in amps, and R1 is your small resistor size. You have 43Ω for your small R, or R1.

0.134V/43Ω
=
0.00311A; 3.11 mA

If you wanted 1mA, you'd adjust your R1 to be ~134Ω, and your R2 would then be 1,340Ω.

0.134V/0.001A
=
134Ω

All that is assuming that you have a voltage of 67mV across R1, and a diode Vf of 0.6V. If your voltage drop across R1 is different than 0.067V, then your 0.134V constant will change, which changes the cct characteristics.
 
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OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Idk what you're building comepletely but if your cct demonstrates the same characteristics as the example from the datasheet, you should create a constant current source of about 3mA regardless of temp change (to a degree, lol pun intended!) with the cct posted.
View attachment 4458846
View attachment 4458847

Most relevant equation is:

(Iset) = (0.134V)/(R1)

Iset is the current you desire in amps, and R1 is your small resistor size. You have 43Ω for your small R, or R1.

0.134V/43Ω
=
0.00311A; 3.11 mA

If you wanted 1mA, you'd adjust your R1 to be ~134Ω, and your R2 would then be 1,340Ω.

0.134V/0.001A
=
134Ω

All that is assuming that you have a voltage of 67mV across R1, and a diode Vf of 0.6V. If your voltage drop across R1 is different than 0.067V, then your 0.134V constant will change, which changes the cct characteristics.
I still don't know for sure what output I'm supposed to get and this is getting a lot more complicated fast.

I really just want to make and if I'm getting decent CS out of it consider it a done deal. The CS I'm making now seems to work fine for fighting infections etc but this is supposed to of better quality due to the smaller particle size.

For my setup I use a 1L flat-bottom boiling ball on a magnetic stirrer with a .9999 silver coin split in half hanging off the ends of 6" .9999 silver wire. Couple of plastic caps as spacers to keep the coins separated an inch apart. Seems to work pretty good. I fill it just below where the wires and coins join and crush the joint so there's good contact.

Colloidal_silver_New_setup_02.jpg

A look at the business end of it.

Colloidal_silver_New_setup_01.jpg
 

Mak'er Grow

Well-Known Member
I really just want to make and if I'm getting decent CS out of it consider it a done deal. The CS I'm making now seems to work fine for fighting infections etc but this is supposed to of better quality due to the smaller particle size.
This may help some.
From what I've read "the optimum particle size seems to be within the 10 to 20 nanometer diameter range. Below this and the silver becomes toxic to healthy human cells2, and above this becomes less effective. "
Theres info about swapping the leads and amount of current to time running for particle sizes too.
Is this you ??? :P
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
It was my understanding that if the pins are drawn in a trans pic its view is from the bottom?
Where if you flip yours it matches perfectly.
What would you say the temp coefficient of this is?
USER_SCOPED_TEMP_DATA_orca-image--165519710.jpeg_1579314666390.jpeg
50mV/40°C
=
1.25mV/°C

That look right? It's the 1N914B.

If that's correct then @OldMedUser your 10× multiplier looks closer to 5× multiplier. Or you'd multiply your small R (R1) by only 5 (instead of 10) to determine what your big R (R2) would be.
Screenshot_2020-01-17-19-41-45~2.png

This is my guess as to how it will work if your diode measured 0.625V.
1579317794714.png
@43Ω for R1, I'm guessing close to 4.7mA. Haha very curious how close I get.
 

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Mak'er Grow

Well-Known Member
What would you say the temp coefficient of this is?
View attachment 4458865
50mV/40°C
=
1.25mV/°C

That look right? It's the 1N914B.

If that's correct then @OldMedUser your 10× multiplier looks closer to 5× multiplier.
View attachment 4458890

This is my guess as to how it will work.
View attachment 4458889
@43Ω for R1, I'm guessing close to 4.7mA. Haha very curious how close I get.
I've been raking my brain for the other diode number I used to know...1N457...lol
Ya that looks right to me, but is he making a multiplier...I thought it was more of a current limiter he was making...doh my bad.
See I should be going back to school...its all looking greek to me again...lol
Does it not work by the ratio of the resistor values so if the resistor values are x 10 of each other then it should be 10 times multiplier?
 
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Mak'er Grow

Well-Known Member
Not sure how to explain this, but I think I see the 'issue'...theres a 5R1 under the 67.7 mV + 0.625V...should that be 10R1 since the resistors being used are times 10 of each other?
I think his notes said ~3mA, so even 4.7mA isn't far off. :)
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
This may help some.
From what I've read "the optimum particle size seems to be within the 10 to 20 nanometer diameter range. Below this and the silver becomes toxic to healthy human cells2, and above this becomes less effective. "
Theres info about swapping the leads and amount of current to time running for particle sizes too.
Is this you ??? :P
The Smurf man drank lots of his home made CS that he used salt in to speed up the process creating silver nitrate that turns black with exposure to light and looks blue when it reacts in human skin. It's a permanent condition too and effects every organ in the body but not fatal.

At least you wouldn't have to decide on a costume every Halloween. ;) Papa Smurf every year! lol

Proper CS even in large quantities won't turn you blue. I think I'm going to try consuming a modest amount every day and see how or if it affects me.

:peace:
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
Not sure how to explain this, but I think I see the 'issue'...theres a 5R1 under the 67.7 mV + 0.625V...should that be 10R1 since the resistors being used are times 10 of each other?
I think his notes said ~3mA, so even 4.7mA isn't far off. :)
Voltage vs Temp of 1N914B...
USER_SCOPED_TEMP_DATA_orca-image--165519710.jpeg_1579314666390.jpeg
(500mV - 450mV) = 50mV
(25°C) - (65°C) = -40°C

50mV ÷ -40°C
=
-1.25mV/°C


From datasheet...
Screenshot_2020-01-17-19-41-45~2.png

Customized...
USER_SCOPED_TEMP_DATA_orca-image-628916483.jpeg_1579321460174.jpeg

From datasheet...
1579321753782.png

Customized...
USER_SCOPED_TEMP_DATA_orca-image--1858238577.jpeg_1579321589843.jpeg

That's what I'm guessing (?), but a current measurement will tell you for sure. Its probably way off. If you use -40°C and 25°C instead of 65°C & 25°C, your tempco climbs up to ~-2.3mV/°C, so maybe 0.134V is closer to the correct value than 0.205V, lol idk
 

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OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
I decided to put some power to my circuit and see what kind of power readings I got if any. I dug up an old Radio Shack multi voltage wall wart. Supposed to be 3 - 12v but puts out 5 - 17.5v and is rated at 800mA. It has a removable tip so you can change polarity and at one time probably had an assortment of tips but I found it at a thrift store years ago sans extra tips.

Not sure how meaningful this data is but at least I know power is getting through so that part works. The No Load readings are straight off the end of the plug.

Volts mANo Load mA
5.21.01.2
7.2 1.7 2.0
9.22.5 2.7
11.23.33.5
13.34.14.4
17.85.86.0

PowerTest.JPG

Anybody know what type of diode these clear ones are? No numbers on them and have what looks like a fine fuse wire inside.

GlassDiodes.JPG

PS: Those diodes in the phone base turned out to be 1n4003s so I got 5 of those but they are no use atm.

Bed time!
 

spek9

Well-Known Member
Nice boxes, looked like a display... how often do you change components or software? How are things wired on the back?
The display look was intentional. I needed it to keep dust out, be visible, and easily modifiable. It sits at the back of one of my work benches.

I don't change out the components. Once on there, they are there for good (that said, I do use sockets for absolutely everything, in case a component wears out someday, or I fry something by accident, they are easily replaced). Each newly added device becomes part of the entire test regimen.

When I have time, say every few months, I'll add new components I've written software for. I've got a list of devices I still need to add.

I only change the software for a few reasons; for each of the various software modules, if I add a new feature, or someone else who uses the software adds a new feature and I approve it, or they request a new feature and I decide it's worth adding in. If I find a bug, or one is reported to me by someone else, I update the software to fix the bug, and write tests to ensure it's fixed and I don't regress it later. Or, I decide to change the non-public-facing internals of the software for my own reasons (for example, I find an efficiency issue I want to correct).

Any change (commit) to any of the software modules triggers the test platform to run all tests against all hardware.

Here's a pic of the back of the boxes. It's very simple. All of the silver screws act as push-offs for the boards on the front. The circuit boards sit about 2.75" from the box.

unit_test_back.jpg
 
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Timezone

Well-Known Member
I haven't got to the part about connecting the Pi to my PC via wifi yet.
Though I'm connected wirelessly, it works wired also. I only suggest as it puts everything on one monitor, keyboard and mouse.

You wanting to make CS too?
Not yet but If I live long enough, and if my zone's rules catch up...

Anybody else see what I'm seeing?
Very sorry for not weighing in sooner, I've been distracted for a couple of days. Hope it's resolved now, I'm still catching up reading this. I thought from @OldMedUser's diagram, that he had the LM334 oriented correctly.

You guys are covering a lot of ground... I'm not doing the math though.

I think I'm going to try consuming a modest amount every day and see how or if it affects me.
Can we watch?

...looks like a fine fuse wire inside.
If you look close, you can see that the "fine fuse wire" (anode) is connected to a little piece of silicon that sits on a base (cathode). Take a close look at a LED and you'll see the same "cat's whisker" attached to silicon that makes up the diode.

Here's a pic of the back of the boxes.
I meant the back of the boards. From the front, it reminded me of my wire wrap days. I suppose you soldered everything together... still a nice project, thanks.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Though I'm connected wirelessly, it works wired also. I only suggest as it puts everything on one monitor, keyboard and mouse.
That is a goal worth achieving. I've been trying to use the tiny CD that came with the Arduino as it has the instructions for the various things that came with the kit but my computer hangs and Explorer crashes. Thought the CD was no good but tried a regular disk in there and it won't read that either. The other drive which is a Blu-Ray burner just opens then immediately closes so I can't even get a disk in. This Win7 has gone right flaky after the last updates. Got a notice on the 14th that it's no longer supported which I knew was happening. Time to boot Win10 or go full Raspbian! lol

Any thoughts on my testing the circuit under power? I might be able to hook it up and run a batch of CS with it all still on the breadboard then if that works go ahead and solder it up on the PCB.
 

Timezone

Well-Known Member
Any thoughts on my testing the circuit under power? I might be able to hook it up and run a batch of CS with it all still on the breadboard then if that works go ahead and solder it up on the PCB.
Go ahead, it's not like you're working with high voltages and a lot of complicated components. I just about always power up my projects though at 5Vdc...
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
I decided to put some power to my circuit and see what kind of power readings I got if any. I dug up an old Radio Shack multi voltage wall wart. Supposed to be 3 - 12v but puts out 5 - 17.5v and is rated at 800mA. It has a removable tip so you can change polarity and at one time probably had an assortment of tips but I found it at a thrift store years ago sans extra tips.

Not sure how meaningful this data is but at least I know power is getting through so that part works. The No Load readings are straight off the end of the plug.

VoltsmANo Load mA
5.21.01.2
7.21.72.0
9.22.52.7
11.23.33.5
13.34.14.4
17.85.86.0
View attachment 4459061


Anybody know what type of diode these clear ones are? No numbers on them and have what looks like a fine fuse wire inside.

View attachment 4459063

PS: Those diodes in the phone base turned out to be 1n4003s so I got 5 of those but they are no use atm.

Bed time!
Idk, they look like little zeners. I think the tall 1 on the left standing vertical might be a fuse?

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to hold a constant current regardless the input voltage applied (up to 40V I think I saw on data sheet) and regardless the size of the load (within reason).

Couple things to try:
1. Remove diode and large resistor. With 43Ω you should see ~1.5 mA (0.064 ÷ 43Ω = 0.00148A, 64mV comes from data sheet; room temp is assumed ~76°F, or 298°K; 298°K × 217μV/°K = 0.06466V). Try different voltages, see if the different voltage sources from your AC/DC adapter produce different mA measurements. I'm pretty sure it should stay relatively constant.

2. Replace red/clear diode with the 1n4003. Try cct again with different voltages and measure to see if mA changes. The equation for the R values and expected set current will change, but whatever the actual output mA ends up being, it shouldn't change with different voltage input applied, I think that's what I'm comprehending. If the mA output is constant throughout the gambit of different voltages applied, then your original diode is not functioning as intended. If your mA output changes with different voltages applied, well then, idk lol, perhaps you'd need a voltage regulator on the input of your LM334, but that just seems unideal..

The whole purpose of the second larger resistor + diode is to reduce the constant current fluctuation as the temperature changes. The constant current source can be made with only 1 set resistor, and should hold constant as long as the chip doesn't heat up or the ambient change temp much.

The second large resistor can be changed out for bigger or smaller depending on the change in constant current with temperature rise. So if you heated the chip up and your constant current increased then you'd +/- the size of the big resistor (R2) to offset. A zero temperature coefficient means that theres 0 change in characteristics with temperature fluctuation. A positive tempco means as you increase in temp so does your mA or mV, and a negative tempo means as you increase in temp your mA or mV drop, in this cct we're only worried about mA. You'd add resistance, or use a bigger R2 if your mA were increasing with temp rise, and you'd reduce resistance or make your big resistor (R2) smaller if mA were decreasing with temp rise. Once you dial in your R2 size needed for 0 tempco (using a 1kΩ POT for R2 could be an easy way of determining R2 value, you'd measure mA at ambient, then use a hairblowdryer or something and increase temp, then rotate the POT till you measured the same mA as with ambient), then you could calculate your R2:R1 ratio, and from that you should be able to derive your Iset equation..

Iset
=
{[(0.067V)×(R2:R1 ratio)] + (Vf of diode) + (0.067V)} / [R1 × (R2:R1 ratio)]

All of this can be done without the math, and by trial and error. If you know your desired mA or desired constant current needed for your CS factory then you'd just build your cct with the diode you have (1n4003), then use a 100Ω pot for R1, and a 1kΩ POT for R2, then you'd set up your multimeter to measure output current, and then adjust POT R1 till your output matched the desired current you'd like. Then heat up the chip and adjust POT R2 to match the same mA output that was observed with no heat applied. At least that's my comprehension. I don't have any lm334's or I'd be breadboarding and trying to determine for myself.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Go ahead, it's not like you're working with high voltages and a lot of complicated components. I just about always power up my projects though at 5Vdc...
I started at the 5v and went through them all to 17.5. The PS I use to make the CS is 29.5v @ 460 mA.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
All of this can be done without the math, and by trial and error.
That's the ticket!

Think I'll hook it up and run a batch of CS and see how it goes. I still have the 1N914B in the circuit and will go with that for now as it's the only one I could find that says it's a silicon small signal diode and the sheet says any of that type will do.

Need to figure out why my DVD/BluRay burners aren't working so I can read the little CD that came with my Arduino and get the libraries for the various projects.

May just switch over to Win10 and reinstall some software.

Thanks for all the help with this but the math part will have to wait. Just getting into programming the Arduino for the sensors etc I have now will be enough for my head I think. Lots of stuff in that kit to figure out. Wishing I'd ordered some more breadboards with this last order now. Cheap enough.

:peace:
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
That's the ticket!

Think I'll hook it up and run a batch of CS and see how it goes. I still have the 1N914B in the circuit and will go with that for now as it's the only one I could find that says it's a silicon small signal diode and the sheet says any of that type will do.

Need to figure out why my DVD/BluRay burners aren't working so I can read the little CD that came with my Arduino and get the libraries for the various projects.

May just switch over to Win10 and reinstall some software.

Thanks for all the help with this but the math part will have to wait. Just getting into programming the Arduino for the sensors etc I have now will be enough for my head I think. Lots of stuff in that kit to figure out. Wishing I'd ordered some more breadboards with this last order now. Cheap enough.

:peace:
Haha ya, whenever I come to a problem I always try to figure it out because if I don't it will bug me forever lol. 90% of my commentary is less than neccessary but just trying to give insight to where my train of thought is. Its peculiar that input V is not used in any of the equations for output current in the data sheet, but experimentally you observe mA output to be dependent on Vin. Lol idk anymore.. I wasn't sure about that little red/clear diode and that's why I suggested the 1n4003, but after your confidence of it being a 1N914B and seeing your voltage : mA chart, maybe the lm334 provides a constant current source based on R values, but also based on input V? Well whatever the relationship is, good luck, I'm going to dig a little more because I'm not satisfied with my understanding, if I figure it out I'll post here.
 
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