Seed confusion

[Mumbeltypeg]

Hi all, want to have a go at making a stockpile of seed for myself for such occasions as now where I fuck up and lose all my plants.
Dumb questions regarding to pollinating for the first time.. will I get some decent plants from crossing a couple of decent F1’s from different strains or do I have to back cross a couple of generations and create IBL’s to try and make a new f1?
It’s a new area for me.. I have been reading the breeders paradise thread but it’s a lot to take in.

 

[Mumbeltypeg]

Say for eg.. I had two strains.. let’s say blueberry Hashplant and space monkey for arguments sake
Should I
A) cross the two strains as they are?
B) make f2’s of each and hope to find some winners?
C) make f2, f3’s of each and then try crossing them?
D) work one back to F3/F4 and then keep throwing new F1 strains at it and see what sticks?

 

[go go kid]

have you got a good male, or are you just going to fem them? just a question

 

[conor c]

Hi all, want to have a go at making a stockpile of seed for myself for such occasions as now where I fuck up and lose all my plants.
Dumb questions regarding to pollinating for the first time.. will I get some decent plants from crossing a couple of decent F1’s from different strains or do I have to back cross a couple of generations and create IBL’s to try and make a new f1?
It’s a new area for me.. I have been reading the breeders paradise thread but it’s a lot to take in.

No you can make a straight ibl without a bx you just need to inbreed the hybrid your making while making good selections along the way and rejecting anything that doesn't make the cut and if you wanna make another f1 hybrid you can just cross it to something entirely unrelated and hey presto a new F1 a word to the wise though remember it pays to label and keep seeds from every step incase you make a mistake or bad selection it's easier going back than it is to steam ahead and eliminate something you don't like over many generations imo

 

[Mumbeltypeg]

No you can make a straight ibl without a bx you just need to inbreed the hybrid your making while making good selections along the way and rejecting anything that doesn't make the cut and if you wanna make another f1 hybrid you can just cross it to something entirely unrelated and hey presto a new F1 a word to the wise though remember it pays to label and keep seeds from every step incase you make a mistake or bad selection it's easier going back than it is to steam ahead and eliminate something you don't like over many generations imo

Thank you.
So, so long as I have one worked IBL I can cross it with whatever and see how it goes? F1,2,3 doesn’t matter?

 

[Mumbeltypeg]

have you got a good male, or are you just going to fem them? just a question

I want to use a male rather than self, and no, I have always gave males the chop till now. But I’m putting some designated space to start working on this project, should be able to do 30/40 small plants at a time I recon.

 

[conor c]

Thank you.
So, so long as I have one worked IBL I can cross it with whatever and see how it goes? F1,2,3 doesn’t matter?

Well it have to be a higher gen to be a ibl? But if your meaning if you take a already worked ibl and cross it to any strain that's unrelated at all then it's a true F1 cross we only use the F1 for explanation sake with poly hybrids and multi multi poly hybrids in reality all that shits mostly related already hence why few new strains are actual true f1s these days which isn't good as the magic is in the F1 crosses alot of the time imo

 

[MissinThe90’sStrains]

I think a major question to ask yourself is “what are your goals for this particular project” ? Are you trying to make a certain strain “better” - more potency, better structure, enhanced terps, better resilience, more adapted to your grow style/conditions? Are you just looking to see what new possibilities you can create by mashing genes together?

I think it’s important to define breeding goals before attempting a project. Depending on your end goal, it might help to guide your partner selections for those breedings, or help to eliminate others that don’t fit your criteria.

As for working lines, I think that at the very minimum, going through the process of making f2/f3 with each potential breeding partner will at least help you see more of what lies in those lines, and get a better sense of what traits you may be looking to improve or bring out with your breeding. The more you work through the genepool, the more tools will be revealed to you to work with. You might find some really cool stuff in the recessive traits too (Subcool was known for breeding with recessive traits, for example) and had some neat shit.

 

[Mumbeltypeg]

I think a major question to ask yourself is “what are your goals for this particular project” ? Are you trying to make a certain strain “better” - more potency, better structure, enhanced terps, better resilience, more adapted to your grow style/conditions? Are you just looking to see what new possibilities you can create by mashing genes together?

I think it’s important to define breeding goals before attempting a project. Depending on your end goal, it might help to guide your partner selections for those breedings, or help to eliminate others that don’t fit your criteria.

As for working lines, I think that at the very minimum, going through the process of making f2/f3 with each potential breeding partner will at least help you see more of what lies in those lines, and get a better sense of what traits you may be looking to improve or bring out with your breeding. The more you work through the genepool, the more tools will be revealed to you to work with. You might find some really cool stuff in the recessive traits too (Subcool was known for breeding with recessive traits, for example) and had some neat shit.

Thank you for that MT90’s, I think first of all I just want to have a go at pollinating a plant and making some seed.. haven’t done it before, want to give it a try. I’ve got a stack of seed packs here, I guess I’ll try and find something to “mash together” for my first go, see what I learn from it and then look at doing some inbreeding from there?

 

[Mumbeltypeg]

If I grow out a pack of one strain and cross a male and female from the same pack.. what do I get? Would it show different traits of the original parents it was made from?

 

[MissinThe90’sStrains]

Assuming the pack you got is a first-cross, or an f1, then making a cross from 2 plants within that same pack would make f2. Crossing 2 plants from the f2 generation together makes f3. Labeling gets a little complicated when you start to cross plants from different generations.

@Farmer's Hat would be a good one to ask for direction, as they’ve got their own neat breeding project going on.

 

[Farmer's Hat]

If this is your first attempt at making seeds, dont overthink it. Select a good looking male and cross it with every female that you like. Dont bother trying to stabilize any phenos, or making an IBL.
Once you grow out a few dozens seeds of your F1 crosses, you will get a better idea of whats possible.

The next step after testing dozens of seeds, is to set a goal for a more serious breeding project. My only advice is that you make hundreds of seeds for every cross. That way you can be aggressive with the selection process. As an example, I will plant dozens of seeds and kill all the runts within week 2-3. One of my recent breeding projects, I scrapped 50% of the seedlings because they were lacking vigor, and they had unwanted leaf phenos.

Creating a specific strain takes time and dedication. Its a very slow process. You have to test dozens of seeds, and sometimes the male selected passes on unwanted traits. It can be pretty frustrating when a strain starts drifting in the wrong direction. Having a reserve stock is pretty important. Save at least 100 seeds from every generation F1, F2, F3, etc.

I also recommend that you get ahold of some of the classics and a few landraces, if you want to create something unique. Its difficult to create something different with all the modern strains, because they all possess very similar genetics. Genetic variation is important if you want to create a strain that is truly unique.

 

[Trap Star]

Look at your genetics before you just mash anything together.

Then again, its your life...mash whatever you want

 

[Unga Bunga]

So after the F1 , F2 and so on , where do back crosses come into play ?

 

[Trap Star]

Malawi x Vietnamese Black x King Louis XIII

Malawi x Vietnamese Black = Trippy Weed

King Louis XIII = Bud structure

Grow 100 M x VB an keep the trippyiest cut.
Then cross that cut - to KLxiii an make F1
Test those seeds against the M x VB keeper cut
Select a new M x VB x KLxiii

Then STS a cut - reverse her an self pollenate
Make S1 seeds to lock down the key traits

Then pop the S1 seed stock to search for outlines that are better than the mom

Thats how you invent the new cookies,og kush, or haze

 

[Trap Star]

So after the F1 , F2 and so on , where do back crosses come into play ?

Back crosses are used to get back to a desired plant.

Plant 1 x plant 2 = Plant 3
Then plant 3 x plant 1 = the bx
The bx will be more of plant 1 than plant 3

 

[Unga Bunga]

I was thinking bx in the sense of going back to using the original male in an F1 cross to a female further down the filial generation . Requiring keeping male clones or preserved pollen .

 

[Trap Star]

I was thinking bx in the sense of going back to using the original male in an F1 cross to a female further down the filial generation . Requiring keeping male clones or preserved pollen .

It could happen...
That male will bring traits to that new F1 female..

That might alter the outcome of the selected female.

 

[Trap Star]

Malawi M x Vietnamese Black F = F1
Find a keeper that is trippy as fuck

Then bx that keeper to the Malawi dad...
Those seeds might contain stronger females

 

[Unga Bunga]

What I'm trying to understand is something like this ...

You make a cross of 2 strains , trying your best to assure they don't have common lineage . Out of the F1 you select a male and female showing the traits you're looking for and create an f2 . Growing out the f2 you'd get more phenotypes than came from the F1 seeds .

At what point in the filial generation is it beneficial to go back to the original male used in the F1 cross using a female that has all the traits you're looking for . Would you keep going down the line of F3 f4 f5 before doing a bx to the original male ?

I come from the world of breeding fish where both sexes show all the attributes you're looking for . Unlike cannabis where males only show structure , vigor , aroma , and in some cases trichome production .

To create a "true breeding" strain does a bx to the original male come into play or are you better off just picking from each generation until you get to "IBL" status ?

I never really thought about breeding when I was actively growing . I had access to all the best clones and was more concerned with marketability . Now that I'm not growing for money or breeding fish I'm trying to wrap my head around the finer nuances of cannabis .