Some perspectives on Ron Paul, Conservatives, Liberals and Libertarians ...

ViRedd

New Member
Ron Paul—The libertarian Republican

If there is one man who elicits a strong response across the gamut of GOP constituencies, it is Texas Republican congressman and presidential candidate Dr. Ron Paul. Because he is a genuine libertarian, Paul has been a gadfly to liberals and conservatives alike since his first election in Texas to the U.S. House in 1976, and his long-time presence in the GOP is an anomaly that deserves attention.

Ron Paul, a ten-term congressman, small-town doctor, retired Air Force officer and great-grandfather is, indisputably, a gentleman. In a legislative body where integrity seems an increasingly rare quality, Paul’s is unquestioned. Not content merely to condemn unconstitutional taxes and expenditures, every year Dr. Paul returns a portion of his congressional office budget to the U.S. Treasury. In his medical practice, Paul refused to accept Medicare payments on principle. Recently dubbed “the most radical congressman in America” by a New York Times Magazine feature article, Ron Paul’s “radicalism,” clearly, is made of different stuff.

Contrary to Congress’ dreams of ever-increasing power, Dr. Paul’s congressional career is laced with legislation that seeks to reduce the size and scope of the federal government. During his first stint in the House (1976-1984), Paul served on the House Banking Committee, where he was an outspoken critic of the Federal Reserve policies of the era. From that time forward he has sponsored bills and voted to reduce and eliminate federal taxes, as well as federal spending and regulation.

Paul has never voted to raise taxes, never voted for an unbalanced budget, never voted to raise congressional pay, never voted for gun-ownership restrictions, and has voted against regulating the Internet. He is consistently pro family and pro life. In his own words, Paul “never votes for legislation unless the proposed measure is expressly authorized by the Constitution.” Notably, Paul was one of only four congressmen to endorse the presidential candidacy of Ronald Reagan in 1976.

Where do I, an old-school Reagan Republican, find myself on the issue of Ron Paul? How should other Reagan Republicans see this genuine maverick presidential candidate for the GOP?

The key is the difference between the meanings of “libertarian” and “conservative.” As for Ron Paul’s status among Reagan Republicans, this is the only question that matters.

When it comes down to the nitty-gritty, conservatives and libertarians have often divergent and incompatible perspectives on the Constitution. For the libertarian, the government that governs best is the one that governs least. For the conservative (and by “conservative” I always mean “constitutional conservative”), the government that governs best is not necessarily the one that governs least, but the one that governs according to the letter of the Constitution.

Here we might also consider the differences between libertarianism and liberalism. Libertarians believe in maximal individual liberty—the absolute maximum of individual liberty that a society can tolerate without anarchy. In this vision, government should be as small as possible, so as not to interfere with the liberty of the individual. Paul cemented himself in this camp in 1988, when he accepted the Libertarian Party presidential nomination. At the other end of the spectrum, liberals pursue the advancement of maximal corporate liberty, which is accomplished (in their thinking) by ensuring the rights of groups. A big government with expansive jurisdictions and prerogatives, then, is a necessary feature of the leftist vision for society. More often than not, though, ensuring group rights means trampling individual rights.
Ultimately, libertarians and liberals stand at opposite ends of the age-old problem of “the one and the many.” Whereas libertarians champion the nearly unfettered rights of individuals (the many) at the expense of society, liberals demand rights for society (the one) to the detriment of society’s individuals.

Unlike libertarianism or liberalism, conservatism seeks to reconcile the one and the many by means of a singular bedrock principle: government limited by the law. In American government, this commitment takes the form of constitutional constructionism—the doctrine that the jurisdiction of the federal government is limited to those things explicitly set aside for it in the Constitution.

In our federal system, all other rights and responsibilities are left to the discretion of individuals and the states (the 9th and 10th Amendments). Federalism, then, is the hallmark of constitutionally limited government in our system. Under such a system, the federal government should actually be strong where it has a constitutional mandate to govern (contra libertarianism); this same strong government should be nonexistent where no constitutional mandate exists (contra liberalism).

Regrettably, there is little room for federalism among libertarians or liberals. The strange fact of the matter is that libertarians are becoming increasingly dissimilar to conservatives across a whole range of issues, and increasingly similar to liberals.

Nowhere is this truer for Ron Paul than with national-security issues—the one area where the Constitution couldn’t be more clear about the role of the federal government. One month after 9/11, Paul was one of three Republicans to vote against the Patriot Act. He was the lone member of either party to vote against the Financial Antiterrorism Act (412-1) to inhibit the financing of terrorist groups, and he has been the most vocal of all anti-war Republicans when it comes to the Iraq war, which he repeatedly derides as an exercise in “empire building” and cavalierly dismisses as a war “sold to us with false information.” While never actually embracing any of the conspiracy theories of the Iraq war, Paul’s criticism repeatedly lends them credence.

This disagreement with Dr. Paul trumps all others and is why Paul will not be Commander in Chief. The only way to preserve American liberty is to defend it vigorously from hostile regimes, and the constitutional obligation of the federal government to do so is beyond dispute. To be sure, we want to defend American sovereignty without an expansion of the state, but Paul’s view of Iraq as a “war of choice” conjured up by war profiteers and “a dozen or two neocons who got control of our foreign policy,” is more than most conservatives can bear. We loved ye, Ron Paul, but we never knew ye.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
i would agree if i did not disagree. :)

defending the land does not mean globe trotting around and pounding questionable governments into defeat or instability.. it seems quite barren of law to go about these conquests of ours. therefor, it does not seem conservative to me.




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medicineman

New Member
i would agree if i did not disagree. :)

defending the land does not mean globe trotting around and pounding questionable governments into defeat or instability.. it seems quite barren of law to go about these conquests of ours. therefor, it does not seem conservative to me.




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Geeze, 7X, you are a hard one to figure. I find myself thinking about you about the same way you found the article. I would agree if I did not disagree. You and I have some common ground on some issues but are about 180 out on others. Ho-hum, the human dillema.
 

ViRedd

New Member
Geeze, 7X, you are a hard one to figure. I find myself thinking about you about the same way you found the article. I would agree if I did not disagree. You and I have some common ground on some issues but are about 180 out on others. Ho-hum, the human dillema.
Med ...

That's because, as described in the article, you are a liberal and 7x is a conservative or libertarian.

7x ...

I understand your delimma. If you looked at it as though the Islamofascists declared war on us by committing the atrocity of 9-11, and that we are fighting the war in their turf, would you feel any differently ... constitutionally, I mean?

Vi
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
Med ...

That's because, as described in the article, you are a liberal and 7x is a conservative or libertarian.

7x ...

I understand your delimma. If you looked at it as though the Islamofascists declared war on us by committing the atrocity of 9-11, and that we are fighting the war in their turf, would you feel any differently ... constitutionally, I mean?

Vi
i can't make myself believe that they declared war on us on 9/11, not even when they hit the USS Cole or the first time they bombed the trade center. they have been screaming threats of violence at us for decades and have only now gained the inertia to actually do something. if there was a declaration of war it was long ago when we helped steal Palestinian land and the people of those surrounding countries figured out what happened.

just imagine if norway, italy and germany decided to redraw some borders in CA. what if they said we'll give this chunk of valuable port land to some obscure tribe of vikings who said they used to live there several centuries ago. everyone out. next thing you know those vikings are tearing stuff up in Maine and claiming that land too... then they're building up a huge army and making friends with china. this is what is happening.

we had no business going over there and getting involved in drawing up new borders with the greedy dictators of those surrounding lands. we preach democracy to the world but when those countries finally moved toward democracy and voted for leaders to have their voices heard we tell them to shut up and label them.

after we helped steal the land we go on to encourage israelis to squat on even more of their land and form "settlements", all the while we're arming israel with state of the art weapons?!

we made this situation and it won't get any better until we make amends with the people. forget the politicians and the royalty, we need to buy their goods, force israel to open up employment and all their social services, we need to get those people involved in the modern world instead of disregarding them.








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medicineman

New Member
i can't make myself believe that they declared war on us on 9/11, not even when they hit the USS Cole or the first time they bombed the trade center. they have been screaming threats of violence at us for decades and have only now gained the inertia to actually do something. if there was a declaration of war it was long ago when we helped steal Palestinian land and the people of those surrounding countries figured out what happened.

just imagine if norway, italy and germany decided to redraw some borders in CA. what if they said we'll give this chunk of valuable port land to some obscure tribe of vikings who said they used to live there several centuries ago. everyone out. next thing you know those vikings are tearing stuff up in Maine and claiming that land too... then they're building up a huge army and making friends with china. this is what is happening.

we had no business going over there and getting involved in drawing up new borders with the greedy dictators of those surrounding lands. we preach democracy to the world but when those countries finally moved toward democracy and voted for leaders to have their voices heard we tell them to shut up and label them.

after we helped steal the land we go on to encourage israelis to squat on even more of their land and form "settlements", all the while we're arming israel with state of the art weapons?!

we made this situation and it won't get any better until we make amends with the people. forget the politicians and the royalty, we need to buy their goods, force israel to open up employment and all their social services, we need to get those people involved in the modern world instead of disregarding them.








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My Gawd, as VI would say, I think you've hit on something olly, and I thought we'd never agree on anything. The only thing we need in the middle east are embassies, Embassies that are staffed with peace envoys, not CIA spies. Embassies that are there to promote peace and commerce, not overthrow the present government. Just because a government doesn't function the way we like, we should not advocate overthrowing it. We should offer incentives towards change for the better. All our military can do is kill people, it won't change one mind for the better. There is always a time to be tough, but as the old saying goes, Honey attracts more flies than vinegar.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
My Gawd, as VI would say, I think you've hit on something olly, and I thought we'd never agree on anything. The only thing we need in the middle east are embassies, Embassies that are staffed with peace envoys, not CIA spies. Embassies that are there to promote peace and commerce, not overthrow the present government. Just because a government doesn't function the way we like, we should not advocate overthrowing it. We should offer incentives towards change for the better. All our military can do is kill people, it won't change one mind for the better. There is always a time to be tough, but as the old saying goes, Honey attracts more flies than vinegar.
well, i would take a slightly different approach myself. i think we need to really ramp up the number of "spies" because as we cut back our military presence we'll need to keep tabs on the groups who have no moral ground at all... the only way to do that is clandestine.

by secretly gathering that kind of sensitive data we can adapt our public policy in those areas to be more proactive and to have a more valid and positive effect on the world...





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medicineman

New Member
well, i would take a slightly different approach myself. i think we need to really ramp up the number of "spies" because as we cut back our military presence we'll need to keep tabs on the groups who have no moral ground at all... the only way to do that is clandestine.

by secretly gathering that kind of sensitive data we can adapt our public policy in those areas to be more proactive and to have a more valid and positive effect on the world...





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Basically, thats what's wrong with the world, secrets. You may be right but it is wrong.
 

medicineman

New Member
i'm talking about gathering their secrets, we should be open.




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.That will never happen as long as you have politicians running our government. They are basically lying coniving scumbags for the most part with a bundle of their own secrets tagging along behind them, sexual deviants, recipients of bribes, they are the epitomy of what is wrong with this country. Find me an honest politician and I'll show you a loser. Cynicism is my game, calling foul is my fame.
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
the politicians didn't use to be politicians, they were public servants who sacrificed in order to serve. now, we sacrifice so that they may serve themselves.

we can take this country back but some people are going to have to swallow a lot of pride.





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ViRedd

New Member
the politicians didn't use to be politicians, they were public servants who sacrificed in order to serve. now, we sacrifice so that they may serve themselves.

we can take this country back but some people are going to have to swallow a lot of pride..
Very profound ... and well said.

Vi
 

medicineman

New Member
Very profound ... and well said.

Vi
So where did they go wrong. My contention is they were scumbags from the moment they took public posts. These people mostly came from priveledge and were used to getting their way, they were assholes from the gates, spoiled fucking brats with priveledged parents to hype them along. I don't remember any poor dudes, except one from High school, that ever got into politics, and he was the class president and a very popular guy. He got help from our history teacher that later was the governor of the great state of Nevada, Mike O'Callahan, I'm talking about Harry Reid, class of '57' Basic high school, Henderson Nev. My Alma mater
 

ViRedd

New Member
So where did they go wrong. My contention is they were scumbags from the moment they took public posts. These people mostly came from priveledge and were used to getting their way, they were assholes from the gates, spoiled fucking brats with priveledged parents to hype them along. I don't remember any poor dudes, except one from High school, that ever got into politics, and he was the class president and a very popular guy. He got help from our history teacher that later was the governor of the great state of Nevada, Mike O'Callahan, I'm talking about Harry Reid, class of '57' Basic high school, Henderson Nev. My Alma mater
I'd say they didn't go wrong, Med. The people did. We get the government we deserve. The downfall began just as soon as we the people woke up to the fact that we could vote ourselves perks given by the federal government at the expense of someone else. That's pretty much what I've been posting about the entire time I've been visiting this site.

Vi
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Vi, Please explain how the Republicans would do any better.... They had 12 years to prove themselves... They did, they proved themselves unworthy.
 
L

lynchburgball

Guest
[This disagreement with Dr. Paul trumps all others and is why Paul will not be Commander in Chief.]

Dr. Paul won't be Commander in Chief because he doesn't have the constituency to get the nomination. Politics today is not about how well candidates are going to perform in their position but more like a popularity contest. Dr. Paul isn't popular enough. He's pretty cool. Libertarianism is pretty cool too. Penn & Teller are funny too. The trio are just kinda cool, not the starting quarterback running for Student Class President.

Campaigns, Elections, Party Politics (mostly apathy) are all massive problems that need to be discussed at these presidential nomination debates. if romney is voted in, i'll be graduating the following December...so I might travel.

[When it comes down to the nitty-gritty, conservatives and libertarians have often divergent and incompatible perspectives on the Constitution. For the libertarian, the government that governs best is the one that governs least. For the conservative (and by “conservative” I always mean “constitutional conservative”), the government that governs best is not necessarily the one that governs least, but the one that governs according to the letter of the Constitution.

The strange fact of the matter is that libertarians are becoming increasingly dissimilar to conservatives across a whole range of issues, and increasingly similar to liberals.]

This article seems to be an odd mix of discussing the differences between political philosophies set against ron paul's positioning along the spectrum. Libertarianism versus conservatism versus liberalism: none versus little versus lots of govt; intervention/regulation/activity.

The way i sees it, in a hospital, liberals want to actively save everyone, no matter what. conservatives establish the means for all folks to be saved but they only help when asked. libertarians perform surgery on themselves.
 

ViRedd

New Member
Vi, Please explain how the Republicans would do any better.... They had 12 years to prove themselves... They did, they proved themselves unworthy.
They won't do any better, Dank ... until they return to their true conservative roots.

Vi
 

clekstro

Well-Known Member
"In our federal system, all other rights and responsibilities are left to the discretion of individuals and the states (the 9th and 10th Amendments). Federalism, then, is the hallmark of constitutionally limited government in our system. Under such a system, the federal government should actually be strong where it has a constitutional mandate to govern (contra libertarianism); this same strong government should be nonexistent where no constitutional mandate exists (contra liberalism). "

The problem here is that Vi conflates strong government with a government that must have an active presence everywhere. More intelligence collecting would mean a larger temptation to intervene on the part of CIA. Global hegemony is impossible, period. The US simply cannot dump more money into maintaining and empire and analyzing every event in every country to calculate possible American advantage through sabotage, and that is precisely what is happening. Kennedy wanted to shut down CIA because they went ahead without him at the Bay of Pigs, thinking that he would be forced to invade to protect them. He was, of course, killed.

CIA intervention in the middle east and all over the world has been more interested in increasing its own power by blackmailing the government with a disaster. It's responsibility, as I was reading from a critic of the CIA the other day, is to stir up trouble so that the US has someone to fight and the military-industrial complex will continue. The rate of false-flag operations to sabotage leftists politically wanting to nationalize resources and keep US companies from effectively robbing the native population is astounding, and I don't see the logic in expanding that sort of an organization. They are not a group of analysts. They are drug runners, gun smugglers and murderers. They live and operate in a world without morals or responsibility.

The CIA starts trouble by making dirty deals with shifty people to turn a quick buck and to support another shifty group somewhere else. A group screwed over by the CIA strikes back at American interests, or threatens to out the American higher-ups (like George Bush) for their role in secret CIA operations, and they are taken out. This has been standard for the last sixty years. The government, and the people at large, must pay a pretty regular price for CIA "protection."

Vi is right here: you can't do completely without it. I just wouldn't be flushing more money down the toilet so that we can start with lives right afterwards. That makes little sense to me.

The history of the CIA makes me view Vi 's interpretation as historically naive. He has conflated CIA interest with government interest, and national interest with both of them. If there is a difference between spending money and spending it well, then Vi should recognize fraud and abuse and stop telling everybody the world is going to be killed by the newest enemies of American entanglement if we don't further bolster their status in the region by attacking them. That sort of thinking will mean the death of many more Americans for the evil business cycle of death this "necessary" agency stands behind.

No more black op wars, period. No more secret funding (Saying we spent 15 billion last year doesn't help the terrorists, just to hide abuse). No more assassinations. No more keeping drugs illegal in this country to inflate the profit that can be obtained illegally on the black market to buy guns and fund psychopaths that will kill their country's democratic institutions. I don't care if that's a libertarian position or not; the alternative is lunacy and won't make you safer but for a year or so.
 
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