Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too.

[DaveyDoom]

As a strict vegetarian I take exception to that last statement for two reasons:

1) To speak categorically about all vegans (I do not prefer that term) is to ignore the fact that people choose not to eat meat for numerous and vastly different reasons.

2) Most of us understand the natural order of things all too well, which is why we choose a meatless diet. We understand there is a spectrum of living things. Plants do not have brain stems. Plants are not sentient creatures.

I mentioned thresholds in an earlier post. Some vegetarians have bought into the argument put forth by the person who wrote the original piece that the OP chose to copy and paste.

They are called fruitarians. Many believe it is immoral to eat any living thing so they are relegated to eating the fruit of living things. Their diet threshold is lower than mine, just as mine is lower than yours. Now I may roll my eyes when I think of them, but it is not my place to criticize their diet, simply because it does not affect me at all.

You are correct, I should have been more specific. What are some of the reasons people choose a vegan lifestyle? Morals? I really don't know. But I do know that we would not be here if it weren't for meat. We are born hunters, and we are at the top of chain, thank goodness.

To turn your nose up at the very thing that has sustained us since the beginning of time is a sure sign of how far we have removed ourselves from the earth. We put up these barriers and we make rules that have no validity.

Example:

Health Problems Linked to Meat Consumption:

Diabetes Mellitus
Colorectal Cancer
Breast Cancer
Obesity
Cardiovascular Disease
Thrombosis
Impotence

Health Problems Linked to Brussels Sprout Consumption:

Everything listed above has nothing to do with meat consumption. But you are half right on the brussel sprouts. All of those ailments you listed are a direct result of over processed foods, sugar, and additives, not meat. It is crazy to even think such a thing. There is absolutely no proof of this. What did they tell the doc? Oh, I eat meat. That has to be it. Nevermind that I eat twinkies and tons of other highly refined, bleached, hydrogenated foods. It couldn't have been none of that that gave me cancer.

I do applaud the fact that you stick with whole foods like I do, but all I am saying is give meat a chance. It is not the villain.

What do you mean by "thresholds"? I don't understand.

 

[DaveyDoom]

I should also say, Johnnyorganic, that I do not mind what you put in your body. My beef, (pun intended) is the reasoning behind your beliefs. I just don't think it's valid.

On a side note, I've also learned that when someone goes for the troll card, they don't know enough about the subject at hand to make a good argument.

 

[Mcgician]

As I get older my body seems to tolerate less and less processed foods. As soon as I eat whole chicken breasts, and whole grains my body feels great. I don't think I could ever go completely meatless; but I am trending that way.

No joke, I use McDonald's as a laxative. When I really feel the need to go; QP with cheese, fries, and a Coke will completely clean me out.

Hahahaha!!!

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Hey Johnny O , I have a couple questions if you don't mind.

have you always been a vegetarian?

If not, how hard was the transition?

Ive dated 2 vegetarians. they had the nicest,smoothest skin. Is this coincidence?

and somebody brought up PETA.
I wonder are they paid for by meat producers org to make the animal rights movement look silly?

I don't mind one bit.

I became vegetarian in February of 1996, so just shy of fourteen years. I stopped eating eggs and dairy in 2001, so I've been strict vegetarian nine years.

I was an adult when I went veg and it was something I had considered for over a decade prior to actually trying it. The switch itself was crazy easy once I made the decision. I've never been tempted to eat meat in all that time.

I don't know what to tell you on the skin thing because I've never really thought about it. I guess I could say it's possible. I can't see how eliminating the extra fat and cholesterol found in a meat-based diet would adversely affect the skin.

I'm not a member of PETA and I avoid the term vegan because it is too militant and evokes an adverse response in some people. Are they over the top? Without question. Do they get their message out effectively? Absolutely. Why else would so many people have such an explosive response whenever PETA is discussed?

 

[Johnnyorganic]

You are correct, I should have been more specific. What are some of the reasons people choose a vegan lifestyle? Morals? I really don't know. But I do know that we would not be here if it weren't for meat. We are born hunters, and we are at the top of chain, thank goodness.

To turn your nose up at the very thing that has sustained us since the beginning of time is a sure sign of how far we have removed ourselves from the earth. We put up these barriers and we make rules that have no validity.

Example:

Everything listed above has nothing to do with meat consumption. But you are half right on the brussel sprouts. All of those ailments you listed are a direct result of over processed foods, sugar, and additives, not meat. It is crazy to even think such a thing. There is absolutely no proof of this. What did they tell the doc? Oh, I eat meat. That has to be it. Nevermind that I eat twinkies and tons of other highly refined, bleached, hydrogenated foods. It couldn't have been none of that that gave me cancer.

I do applaud the fact that you stick with whole foods like I do, but all I am saying is give meat a chance. It is not the villain.

What do you mean by "thresholds"? I don't understand.

Interesting response.

The reasons for becoming strict vegetarian are as as varied the vegetarian population. For me it was the inhumane conditions in factory farms, and the fact that in order to get meat, the animal must suffer. The funny thing is that once I did it I became aware of other very good reasons for maintaining a vegetarian diet. The environment, health, weight control, etc. But for me I think the best part was it actually altered my consciousness. In other words it actually changed the way I looked at the world. Meat-eaters have no comprehension what an alien a vegetarian is in a meat-eater's world. It is an eye-opening experience.

We've only been eating meat for 2.5 million years, a very small portion of our history on this planet. Humans do not require meat. Humans eat meat because it is convenient. Humans eat meat because they have been conditioned to do so since childhood. That conditioning includes developing a taste for dead flesh.

We are not on top of the food chain. There are several species which kill and eat humans, including microorganisms. If humans were truly on top of the food chain, we would not require meat to be cooked in order to kill off the pathogens, and mask the taste of decay. Hominids did not start eating meat until they discovered fire.

In that time, our bodies have adapted to meat because it is a ready source of proteins and complex nutrients. But all those elements are found in plants. Meat just makes it easier to acquire them.

Anyone choosing to reject the numerous studies linking meat consumption to all those diseases is simply in denial and nothing I say will change that. Suffice it to say that since I became vegetarian, the meat-section on the tip of the food pyramid has shrunk. In that time, I have seen studies encouraging people to consume less meat, but I have never seen a study telling people to eat less vegetables.

Thresholds. Consider a food spectrum where on one end you have nothing and on the other end you have everything. There is a line I will not cross in order to sustain myself. It stops at animal products and I refuse to cross it. I suppose your line stops at cannibalism. Humans are made of meat but I doubt you would ever eat one.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I should also say, Johnnyorganic, that I do not mind what you put in your body. My beef, (pun intended) is the reasoning behind your beliefs. I just don't think it's valid.

On a side note, I've also learned that when someone goes for the troll card, they don't know enough about the subject at hand to make a good argument.

I appreciate that. But I have run into enough hostile meat-eaters to understand that for some reason, my diet offends them.

And what is valid to me does not have to be valid to anyone else.

Troll card. LOL! I couldn't agree more.

 

[jamaicanbubbler420]

https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/289878-whoa-darwins-head-stash.html

 

[Johnnyorganic]

When a human being kills an animal for food, he is neglecting his own hunger for justice. Man prays for mercy, but is unwilling to extend it to others. Why then should man expect mercy from God? It is unfair to expect something that you are not willing to give.

Ben Franklin

 

[DaveyDoom]

Interesting response.

The reasons for becoming strict vegetarian are as as varied the vegetarian population. For me it was the inhumane conditions in factory farms, and the fact that in order to get meat, the animal must suffer. The funny thing is that once I did it I became aware of other very good reasons for maintaining a vegetarian diet. The environment, health, weight control, etc. But for me I think the best part was it actually altered my consciousness. In other words it actually changed the way I looked at the world. Meat-eaters have no comprehension what an alien a vegetarian is in a meat-eater's world. It is an eye-opening experience.

We've only been eating meat for 2.5 million years, a very small portion of our history on this planet. Humans do not require meat. Humans eat meat because it is convenient. Humans eat meat because they have been conditioned to do so since childhood. That conditioning includes developing a taste for dead flesh.

We are not on top of the food chain. There are several species which kill and eat humans, including microorganisms. If humans were truly on top of the food chain, we would not require meat to be cooked in order to kill off the pathogens, and mask the taste of decay. Hominids did not start eating meat until they discovered fire.

In that time, our bodies have adapted to meat because it is a ready source of proteins and complex nutrients. But all those elements are found in plants. Meat just makes it easier to acquire them.

Anyone choosing to reject the numerous studies linking meat consumption to all those diseases is simply in denial and nothing I say will change that. Suffice it to say that since I became vegetarian, the meat-section on the tip of the food pyramid has shrunk. In that time, I have seen studies encouraging people to consume less meat, but I have never seen a study telling people to eat less vegetables.

Thresholds. Consider a food spectrum where on one end you have nothing and on the other end you have everything. There is a line I will not cross in order to sustain myself. It stops at animal products and I refuse to cross it. I suppose your line stops at cannibalism. Humans are made of meat but I doubt you would ever eat one.

I agree with you on the factory farms %100. But, I think it can be done in a humane way... Not trying to make you cringe, but a bullet to the head or axe to the neck makes for about 1 second of suffering.

I don't believe we eat meat because it is convenient. I would think that plucking a carrot from the ground would be much more convenient than plucking a chicken. Meat does not have to be cooked to be consumed, that is a belief of westerners who are ill-informed. There are many eastern cultures who consume raw or fermented meat and fish, and it is much more beneficial to the gut in that form. Steak tartare would probably be the most known dish, for example. I'm not quite sure how you know the diet of man so many millions of years ago, but I refuse to believe he ate salads until fire came along. Remember, you did say meat was more convenient.

I wonder why no other carnivore on this planet hasn't decided to change there diet, other than man? We can reason, and sometimes we're wrong. Everything else listens to their gut, except us. Why don't the tigers and lions and bears (oh my) ever get sick from eating raw meat? Their makeup is not that different. And yes, there are the grazers, too, I know.

Studies are just that, studies. For every study you show me, I can find another study that shows the opposite. Studies are bullshit.

Again, I should say that I am with you on vegetables. I love them. they go great with a big rare porterhouse.

Thresholds. Man, you make dining sound painful when you use thresholds to describe your diet. And you got me. Cannibalism is where I draw the line.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I agree with you on the factory farms %100. But, I think it can be done in a humane way... Not trying to make you cringe, but a bullet to the head or axe to the neck makes for about 1 second of suffering.

I don't believe we eat meat because it is convenient. I would think that plucking a carrot from the ground would be much more convenient than plucking a chicken. Meat does not have to be cooked to be consumed, that is a belief of westerners who are ill-informed. There are many eastern cultures who consume raw or fermented meat and fish, and it is much more beneficial to the gut in that form. Steak tartare would probably be the most known dish, for example. I'm not quite sure how you know the diet of man so many millions of years ago, but I refuse to believe he ate salads until fire came along. Remember, you did say meat was more convenient.

I wonder why no other carnivore on this planet hasn't decided to change there diet, other than man? We can reason, and sometimes we're wrong. Everything else listens to their gut, except us. Why don't the tigers and lions and bears (oh my) ever get sick from eating raw meat? Their makeup is not that different. And yes, there are the grazers, too, I know.

Studies are just that, studies. For every study you show me, I can find another study that shows the opposite. Studies are bullshit.

Again, I should say that I am with you on vegetables. I love them. they go great with a big rare porterhouse.

Thresholds. Man, you make dining sound painful when you use thresholds to describe your diet. And you got me. Cannibalism is where I draw the line.

If killing can be done in a humane was then why is it not done?

I previously stated why meat is a more ready source of nutrients and proteins than plant matter. Pound for pound, this is true. What is not more convenient is growing the meat. But as man moved from the bush to civilization thanks to the rise of agriculture, he had developed a taste for it over the previous couple of million years. Meat is much more inefficient than a vegetarian diet. Convenience and inefficiency often go hand in hand.

If meat does not need to be cooked then why do it? If you answer taste, you are partly correct. Meat is cooked to mask the taste of decaying flesh and to kill pathogens. Predators in the wild have digestive tracts evolved to digest raw meat. Humans do not.

You can pooh-pooh scientific research and documented anthropology all you want. That is your prerogative. The knowledge is out there, but you must approach it with an open mind.

It is painful. It is painful for the animals who must endure unbelievable cruelty before they are unceremoniously slaughtered so you can have your Porterhouse. It is painful for meat-eaters who suffer from all manner of diseases related to a meat-based diet.

 

[DaveyDoom]

If killing can be done in a humane was then why is it not done?

I previously stated why meat is a more convenient source of nutrients and proteins than plant matter. Pound for pound, this is true. What is not more convenient is growing the meat. But as man moved from the bush to civilization thanks to the rise of agriculture, he had developed a taste for it over the previous couple of million years. Meat is much more inefficient than a vegetarian diet. Convenience and inefficiency often go hand in hand.

If meat does not need to be cooked then why do it? If you answer taste, you are partly correct. Meat is cooked to mask the taste of decaying flesh and to kill pathogens. Predators in the wild have digestive tracts evolved to digest raw meat. Humans do not.

You can pooh-pooh scientific research and documented anthropology all you want. That is your prerogative. The knowledge is out there, but you must approach it with an open mind.

It is painful. It is painful for the animals who must endure unbelievable cruelty before they are unceremoniously slaughtered so you can have your Porterhouse. It is painful for meat-eaters who suffer from all manner of diseases related to a meat-based diet.

Damn Johnny, it is not done that way because most of us are too fat and lazy to do it ourselves. Mass produced vegetables endure much of the same tribulations and stress.

And you can believe so-called "scientific research" and "documented" anthropology all you want. That is your prerogative. The knowledge is out there, but you must approach it with an open mind.

Meat is cooked because you've been conditioned to think that it has to be. Like I said before, study up on other cultures and their diets. Billions of Chinese people cannot be wrong.

So other predators digestive tracts have evolved, but not ours after millions of years of ingesting flesh? Why not?

I can see that you have much sympathy for creatures that really don't give two shits about you. I believe Walt Disney is responsible for this kind of new age thought process. I wonder if you were face to face with a hungry bear, if you would still sympathize with your friend, the bear. He's surely not going to worry about what your feelings are. He listens to his gut, not scientific studies.

I would be curious to know when the "vegetarian diet" actually started. I'll bet it's around the same time Bambi was released.

I will certainly let you know when you've handed my ass to me on a platter. I haven't even thought about breaking out the good china, but don't let that stop you, I'm digging this conversation.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Damn Johnny, it is not done that way because most of us are too fat and lazy to do it ourselves. Mass produced vegetables endure much of the same tribulations and stress.

Are you fucking kidding me? That's the best response you can come up with? Screaming tomatoes? LO-fucking-L!

And you can believe so-called "scientific research" and "documented" anthropology all you want. That is your prerogative. The knowledge is out there, but you must approach it with an open mind.

There is nothing so-called about it. You need to cling to your ignorance in order to maintain your belief that killing animals for food is justified. That's fine. It's perfectly understandable. The cognitive dissonance must be maintained at any cost.

If you want to eat meat, it's none of my business. At the same time, I will not hesitate to remind everybody via threads like this one, of the ugly truth.

Meat is cooked because you've been conditioned to think that it has to be. Like I said before, study up on other cultures and their diets. Billions of Chinese people cannot be wrong.

Meat is cooked because the discovery of fire and the consumption of meat by hominids are closely related according to the paleontological record.

Are you saying billions of Chinese eat raw meat? Would it not be more correct to say some Chinese eat raw meat?

So other predators digestive tracts have evolved, but not ours after millions of years of ingesting flesh? Why not?

Because the predators were selected by nature to eat meat.

That is really a question you should be asking yourself, by the way.

I can see that you have much sympathy for creatures that really don't give two shits about you. I believe Walt Disney is responsible for this kind of new age thought process. I wonder if you were face to face with a hungry bear, if you would still sympathize with your friend, the bear. He's surely not going to worry about what your feelings are.

The bear is a predator. If a bear comes after me it is because I have put myself at risk by encroaching in his environment.

I would be curious to know when the "vegetarian diet" actually started. I'll bet it's around the same time Bambi was released.

Look back on my list of famous vegetarians and you will see that vegetarianism among homo sapiens predates Bambi by thousands of years.

And in hominids much longer than that.

I will certainly let you know when you've handed my ass to me on a platter. I haven't even thought about breaking out the good china, but don't let that stop you, I'm digging this conversation.

There is no need to let me know because it is quite clear. Perhaps you should let yourself know.

I'm digging the conversation as well, but your obtuseness is getting tiresome.

 

[DaveyDoom]

I should stop after this one Johnny. You are obviously getting way too upset about this, as you have dissected my response and are now resorting to personal attacks on my character. Another card people go to when you know so little about the subject at hand. You also have made it way too confusing to communicate. Just stick to whole paragraphs. I'm not worth that much effort. Remember, it's only the internet, buddy.

On that note, I strongly believe that you should perhaps take a look into the mirror and see who may be close minded. You're responses are evasive and irrelevant to the subject. Example, "screaming tomatoes" was not my answer to your first question. You seem to be the one who is angry, more so than the OP, very angry over the lack of acceptance by the majority to your choice of diet. We're supposed to understand your compassion for the juicy tenderloin, smothered in butter and onions (all organic, of course) on my plate tonight. Sorry, but we don't get you, so get off your soapbox, you're making a fool of yourself arguing with me about the hazards of eating steak. It's foolish, and so are you to think such nonsense. But, on second hand, if you think that is what is killing you, all the better, more top round for me.

And again Johnny, really, for you to win this, you would have had to change my opinion, or show me something factual and concrete, which you did not. It was your word against mine, and you're just another jackoff on the internet, like me. But you can see (I hope) as well as I, that this will not go anywhere. Everything I stated has just as much merit as what you stated, and can be backed up by just as many scientific studies as your claims. Just look it up for yourself.

I should refrain from tiring you with my obtuseness anymore there, Webster.

 

[Wikidbchofthewst]

You said you looked forward to my hate filled response, which I thought was ironic since you started a vegetarian-bashing thread. That statement was why you were neg-repped. Nobody else responding here was neg-repped.

You opened the door by starting this thread.

Anybody who has been a member here more than a couple of days knows that if you start shooting off your bazoo about vegetarians, you better be prepared to deal with Johnnyorganic. Yes, I take it seriously.

By the way, it is completely hilarious the way you are complaining about how this has unfolded. You are touching on all the key words like 'hate' and 'troll.' My responses have been on-topic. How is that trolling?

Now that this thread has completely backfired, you want to forget all about it by refusing to engage me. I don't blame you.
But you better put me on ignore because I am not going anywhere.

LOL, it seems like everyone who can't hang with JohnnyO starts calling him a troll

It's simply not true. JohnnyO is an OG! Johnny-mother-fucking-O BITCHES!

lol, anyways...

You deserve some serious rep for your posts JO, good shit. And that's coming from a meat eater

I <3 JohnnyO

 

[Wikidbchofthewst]

I should stop after this one Johnny. You are obviously getting way too upset about this, as you have dissected my response and are now resorting to personal attacks on my character. Another card people go to when you know so little about the subject at hand.

What personal attack? When he said he was enjoying the convo but for 'your obtuseness'?

 

[jrh72582]

It amuses me when I hear a meat-eater accusing vegetarians of hypocrisy because I know that person is conflicted. Deep down in their psyche they know the consumption of meat is taking an active part in a cruel and barbaric act. They believe that slaughtering an innocent animal for food is inhumane and immoral. They cannot admit this, however, so they deflect their own sense of guilt by targeting someone who actually chooses to do something about it.

I have a deep and abiding respect for individuals who only eat what they themselves kill, like Ted Nugent. They understand that killing is a brutal and grisly business. They are not conflicted and neither am I.

I have very little respect for supermarket hunter-gatherers who would never eat meat again if they had to kill and butcher every piece of meat that passed their lips.

I agree 100%. Well-said - I have nothing more to add.

 

[jrh72582]

Famous Vegetarians:

Aristotle
Pythagoras
Socrates
Plato
Plutarch
Albert Einstein
Thomas Edison
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Ricky Williams
Oliver Stone
Woody Harrelson
Sir Issac Newton
Charles Darwin
Leonardo da Vinci
Marv Levy
Vincent van Gogh
Voltaire
Tony LaRussa
Tom Scholz
PJ Harvey
Mark Twain
JD Salinger
H.G. Wells
Franz Kafka
Anthony Kiedis

Although I agree with your sentiments on this issue, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle cannot be called vegetarians - there's no way to corroborate. Trust me.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I should stop after this one Johnny. You are obviously getting way too upset about this, as you have dissected my response and are now resorting to personal attacks on my character. Another card people go to when you know so little about the subject at hand. You also have made it way too confusing to communicate. Just stick to whole paragraphs. I'm not worth that much effort. Remember, it's only the internet, buddy.

Buddy, you haven't seen me upset.

By the way, ignorant is not an insult.

Stupid is an insult. Even if I thought you were stupid, I would not state it.

In fact, obtuse is not an insult either. In this particular case, it is deliberate as an evasive technique.

On that note, I strongly believe that you should perhaps take a look into the mirror and see who may be close minded. You're responses are evasive and irrelevant to the subject. Example, "screaming tomatoes" was not my answer to your first question. You seem to be the one who is angry, more so than the OP, very angry over the lack of acceptance by the majority to your choice of diet. We're supposed to understand your compassion for the juicy tenderloin, smothered in butter and onions (all organic, of course) on my plate tonight. Sorry, but we don't get you, so get off your soapbox, you're making a fool of yourself arguing with me about the hazards of eating steak. It's foolish, and so are you to think such nonsense. But, on second hand, if you think that is what is killing you, all the better, more top round for me.

'Screaming tomatoes' was me characterizing your lame rebuttal. Do I really need to explain this to you?

You wish to believe the earth is flat. It does not affect me in the least.

And again Johnny, really, for you to win this, you would have had to change my opinion, or show me something factual and concrete, which you did not. It was your word against mine, and you're just another jackoff on the internet, like me. But you can see (I hope) as well as I, that this will not go anywhere. Everything I stated has just as much merit as what you stated, and can be backed up by just as many scientific studies as your claims. Just look it up for yourself.

I should refrain from tiring you with my obtuseness anymore there, Webster.

If you cannot follow a logical argument then you are correct, we do not have anything further to discuss.

I can explain it to you but I cannot understand it for you.

I do not feel the need to win because, by my diet choice, I've already won.

It is very difficult to contract Mad Cow Disease, or the human variant if you must be technical, from a carrot.

 

[dirtnap411]

I make it a point to know where my meat comes from, only organic, grass fed beef and pork, and free range chicken finds its way onto my table, we only eat fish that I catch, and I grow a large vegetable garden every year. I'm glad to see you don't support PeTA, they make the good vegetarians look bad. I try not to judge people based on their dietary choices, and/or needs. Unfortunately, many vegetarians or vegans don't extend us omnivores the same courtesy.

Only problem I have with Johnny, is the fact that you have asked for data to back up claims, yet you offer no proof of your claims, many of which are cut and past from animal rights websites.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Although I agree with your sentiments on this issue, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle cannot be called vegetarians - there's no way to corroborate. Trust me.

That's why I left off Jesus Christ and Abraham Lincoln. Some vegetarians claim them, but the evidence is questionable.

Although I suppose it might be possible to state that if Socrates were a vegetarian, Plato and possibly Aristotle might very well have been as well.

Here are some online sources. Mind you, both are veggie sites, so please consider the source. But the discussion is interesting for each.

http://www.happycow.net/famous_vegetarians.html
http://www.ivu.org/history/greece_rome/socrates.html