high pressure aero diy skid...need help with electrical

[boodadood]

the pressure AT the nozzle...

 

[r0m30]

not to beat a dead horse here but

But you're going to

i really think it would be possible to do without an accumulator…you would take a hit on the performance of the system

Ahh, I thought you were trying to say that the two solenoid setup would keep the feed line pressurized just like a setup with an accumulator. You're not, so yes this would give you mist. I'm not sure the extra complexity would be worth slight improvement in performance over a system that just cycles the pump. You would basically be eliminating the pump startup time.

this little calculator is telling me that unless the environment is perfect and the system is able to accurately control very short "on" times, and the outcome of these very short on times is maximized by the plant (i.e. the water system is dialed in perfectly), then an hpa system with 8 of these nozzles would cost me more operationally than my slapstick system im currently using
<snip>
this all being said, im really curios now to find out exactly how much water people running HPA are actually using

I'm just starting out and trying to figure out my water consumption. It's not easy because you really need to catch a full accumulator cycle to get an accurate picture and they are far apart. That said I put two plants in the buckets on the morning of the 8th, four misters total, and I added my second gallon of water yesterday. My current cycle is .25s on/2m off.

attached is the calculator used in the above post...input the pressure of the nozzle, the number of nozzles, the seconds on and the seconds off to calculate the amount of water/nutrient solution used per week/day

BD

Wow, I totally missed that you could attach a zip file, I have a spreadsheet that adds in the accumulator if anyone is interested.

 

[boodadood]

i have another electrical question...lol...what do you think about this instead of the timer i already picked out? it sounds to me like the same things as the 422 timer but only 30 bucks cheaper and not as pretty

its part number 7630K81 and its $67 so i could save a few bucks: http://www.mcmaster.com

 

[foresakenlion]

Hey guys not to detract from the electrical side of the equation but it's the total line pressure, and I've noticed a lot of people that have great setups haven't taken the time to shorten their line runs to a bare minimum, and to chart an effective path with their lines runs. No offense, but far too many elbows, I'm aware JG makes these super fit fittings that have a gentle curve to them, can you use them with the snap fits? because if so you should incorporate them. Ideally I'd like to eliminate multiple lines from my setup, for inefficiency and cost benefit.

For me on my setup, I have an F&D table, I'm planning on using the existing drain fitting, for the F to run the line inside, and then use the D fitting minus the risers to DTW. I would then run my line as a straight shoot the length across the inside, my only question is how many sprayers are truly optimal.

I am very much lost as well on the electrical, I think I know how to wire the ATC 422 F01. which is the 1 sec/min/hour unit, not to be confused with the other one that is the 5 sec/min/hour. And since AgriHouse uses 3 secs on 3 minutes off or 1 sec on 1 minute off. I'm going to try to emulate that, if there's issues I'll use a fogger/nebulizer

If John or someone else would be kind enough to show us, I know a lot of people beg but honestly, I don't know jack you'd really be helping out, someone that is in this regards for all practical reasons a retard. and I'm sure we would surely appreciate it.

look into john guest solenoids, beta valves claims to have one made by a PRF.

I'm confused as to the 12V aspect, how would we charge the battery? I know of the Renaissance Charger by the Bedini brothers.

 

[r0m30]

i have another electrical question...lol...what do you think about this instead of the timer i already picked out? it sounds to me like the same things as the 422 timer but only 30 bucks cheaper and not as pretty

its part number 7630K81 and its $67 so i could save a few bucks: http://www.mcmaster.com

I see two knobs but only one range specified, not sure but this looks like it is the same range (.01 - 10 seconds) for both on and off. If that's true then no it's not a good choice for HPA.

Hey guys not to detract from the electrical side of the equation but it's the total line pressure, and I've noticed a lot of people that have great setups haven't taken the time to shorten their line runs to a bare minimum, and to chart an effective path with their lines runs. No offense, but far too many elbows, I'm aware JG makes these super fit fittings that have a gentle curve to them, can you use them with the snap fits? because if so you should incorporate them. Ideally I'd like to eliminate multiple lines from my setup, for inefficiency and cost benefit.

For me on my setup, I have an F&D table, I'm planning on using the existing drain fitting, for the F to run the line inside, and then use the D fitting minus the risers to DTW. I would then run my line as a straight shoot the length across the inside, my only question is how many sprayers are truly optimal.

BD appears to know quite a bit about fluid dynamics. I'll let him tell you why your straight shot is going to give you heartburn.

As to the optimal number of sprayers I journaled this quote by Atomizer in Trichey's thread:

Hi Trichy
The ideal target is <1ml per 100L of chamber volume per misting, maintaining a droplet size range of 5-80 microns with full coverage. The challenging part is staying below the mist saturation point using the only variable you have to work with.. the timing. There`s a very good chance the timer wont go low enough so you may have to settle for something less than perfect and resort to altering to pause timing to compensate but its not ideal.

You have to balance coverage and the mechanical limitations of your system as well.

I'm confused as to the 12V aspect, how would we charge the battery? I know of the Renaissance Charger by the Bedini brothers.

Either a trickle charger or a solar cell are the two most discussed options.

 

[PetFlora]

thanks for the input pf...im curious on the amount of water you use each day/week...right now i grow in a recirculating bucket nft hybrid bubbler thing...between my res and my buckets i use about 17 gallons a week and its killing me...once they are old ladies that number will increase First, it depends on how many nozzles you are running. Most people use too many. I use 2-3 single nozzles in a 33 gallon pod. You may not save much water, but you will save on nutrients as HPA ppms are <800 in full bloom. I don't recall your table size, but a 4 X 4 table could get by with 2 nozzles on each side, staggered both left to right an vertically, so they do not cross fire directly at one another.

one of the things that initially sparked my interest in high pressure, was the amount of water used compared to other hydro systems...so i did some calculations to see what i can expect to be using if i made the switch...what i found is that the timer has to keep the on cycle to 0.7s on or less or else i would be using more water than i am now

say i have 100 psig right at the misters...then the black 120 degree misting nozzles from cloudtop.com would put out 0.0578 gpm...this can be found by plotting their given specs of gpm vs pressure

with 8 misters in the system, i would be using 0.462 gpm every cycle...at 0.7s on, 180s off, i would use 2.6 gallons a day, or about 18 gal per week

at 0.2s on and 180s off, i would only use 0.74 gallons per day, or 5.2 gallons per week...this is a great condition but from what i understand, very difficult to achieve

the on cycle sounds to me that it is a function of the environment, the water system, and the age of the ladies...if your environment is 100% and the ladies are young enough, 0.2s would be ideal...but the system would have to be dead nuts on too

lets say the plants are fairly young in veg, the environment is ok, but the water system performs weakly and there solenoid that controls the misters is far away from the nozzles...the on cycle might then be 1.5s..as the plants get older, maybe this number goes to 2.5s

at a 1.5s on 180s off, the system would use 5.5 gallons a day! at 2.5s on, 9 gallons a day! of course you could increase the off time to say 5 mins to increase the size of the cycle, but even then it will still take 3.3 gallons per day at 1.5s on and 5.5 gal a day for 2.5s on

this little calculator is telling me that unless the environment is perfect and the system is able to accurately control very short "on" times, and the outcome of these very short on times is maximized by the plant (i.e. the water system is dialed in perfectly), then an hpa system with 8 of these nozzles would cost me more operationally than my slapstick system im currently using. OK, but what if you only need 4, 5, 6 nozzles?

this is a tall order to fill the first time around with hpa too...ive been reading the experiences and it seems like it takes 2-3 grows to get the system working perfectly...thats alotts extra water and nutes ($$) for learning

now there are other factors involved with operating costs obviously...like the number of misters used, the actual pressure supplied to them, and the amount of nutrients used

all things being equal with the amount of nutrients being used, even running at a lower pressure (say 80 psi) will only save you about 5 gallons a week at 2.5s on (still using 34 gallons!)

this all being said, im really curios now to find out exactly how much water people running HPA are actually using

thanks,

BD

I answered the questions that I felt were directed to me. Others may have more input. hth

 

[PetFlora]

foresakenlion;6259963: Hey guys not to detract from the electrical side of the equation but it's the total line pressure, and I've noticed a lot of people that have great setups haven't taken the time to shorten their line runs to a bare minimum, and to chart an effective path with their lines runs. No offense, but far too many elbows, I'm aware JG makes these super fit fittings that have a gentle curve to them, can you use them with the snap fits? because if so you should incorporate them. Ideally I'd like to eliminate multiple lines from my setup, for inefficiency and cost benefit. I find that I need two lines, one on each long side. You can run Ts off each line for each mist head. Heads should be staggered both horizontally and vertically so that the mist can cover more area.

For me on my setup, I have an F&D table, I'm planning on using the existing drain fitting, for the F to run the line inside, and then use the D fitting minus the risers to DTW. I would then run my line as a straight shoot the length across the inside, my only question is how many sprayers are truly optimal.

I am very much lost as well on the electrical, I think I know how to wire the ATC 422 F01. which is the 1 sec/min/hour unit, not to be confused with the other one that is the 5 sec/min/hour. And since AgriHouse uses 3 secs on 3 minutes off or 1 sec on 1 minute off. I'm going to try to emulate that, if there's issues I'll use a fogger/nebulizer

If John or someone else would be kind enough to show us, I know a lot of people beg but honestly, I don't know jack you'd really be helping out, someone that is in this regards for all practical reasons a retard. and I'm sure we would surely appreciate it.

look into john guest solenoids, beta valves claims to have one made by a PRF.

I'm confused as to the 12V aspect, how would we charge the battery? I know of the Renaissance Charger by the Bedini brothers.

 

[boodadood]

Hey guys not to detract from the electrical side of the equation but it's the total line pressure, and I've noticed a lot of people that have great setups haven't taken the time to shorten their line runs to a bare minimum, and to chart an effective path with their lines runs. No offense, but far too many elbows, I'm aware JG makes these super fit fittings that have a gentle curve to them, can you use them with the snap fits? because if so you should incorporate them. Ideally I'd like to eliminate multiple lines from my setup, for inefficiency and cost benefit.

hi foresakenlion, the elbows are in the model because of the CAD program i use to generate 3D sketches....there is a way to route tubes without the use of elbows but it takes 100 times longer than just using the elbows...in reality, there will be no elbows used as tube can be bent slightly to achieve the same result...and thanks for the input on the overall route used...i know its long and treacherous and most certainly not optimal...not only because of this but because of a few other reasons, ive decided to scrap that prototype and go with an overall cabinet that includes the HPA system and the grow room into one cab...sorta like r0m's...ill be working on a prelim design and ill post for some feedback a bit later

For me on my setup, I have an F&D table, I'm planning on using the existing drain fitting, for the F to run the line inside, and then use the D fitting minus the risers to DTW. I would then run my line as a straight shoot the length across the inside, my only question is how many sprayers are truly optimal.

i am not sure if i understand 100% what you mean...you have a f&d table you are converting to HPA? if this is the case i would suggest not to simply because the space the roots have to grow in typical F&D tables is very small...i was going to either going to go with trash bins or something DIY of the like that gives plenty of space all around and under the root structures...your roots are as long as your plant is high...so a 2.5-3 footer needs a good 3 feet under her to grow and not be disturbed by puddled water NFT

i can also suggest to you this...when using a pump and creating a distribution network for the flow like tubing our piping runs, it is important to hydraulically balance the flow as much as you can without the use of valves or extraneous pressure drops......most people do this already with their air pumps and stones without even realizing it......by cutting all the tubes used to the same length and by using the same type of airstones....once its all plugged in it works great....than the stones start to clog at different rates...now each stone has a unique pressure drop and when you look at your bubbles, every air stone is putting out a different amount

the same applies to mister manifolds....there is only one line coming off the pump...at one point, you have to tee the flow path into separate directions....anything after this tee should be identical in its plumbing to naturally balance the system...then its a matter of maintaining the differential experienced on each leg of the tee...for the aero user this mainly means to keep your misters unclogged

everything in the plumbing adds to the dynamic head of the system...the tubes, the fittings, the valves, the misters, changes in elevation, etc....when you split the flow path and use a different differential on each side, the side with the higher differential becomes the governor of the system...the side with the lower differential becomes the path of least resistance and uses more of the water...the lines are imbalanced and there will be pressure deviations at the misters, and hence flow deviations at the misters...one mister will be outputting more flow than the other

idk if this helps or not but i think this is where you were going on that...

BD

 

[boodadood]

I see two knobs but only one range specified, not sure but this looks like it is the same range (.01 - 10 seconds) for both on and off. If that's true then no it's not a good choice for HPA.

right on man...thanks for looking out on that one!

BD

 

[boodadood]

I answered the questions that I felt were directed to me. Others may have more input. hth

thanks for your input PF...i didnt realize you run your ppms much lower in HPA...but it totally makes sense when i think about it...those little micron droplets are lil powerful fuckers! i wasnt going to go with a table, i was going to use trash bins or something DIY of the like...i saw one thread of a guy using bins and another thread of a guy using diy 3 foot cylinders...i like the cylinders because they are just about symmetrical and there are no corners where droplets can throw a party and turn into water pretty quickly...the plant was to use 4 cylinders with 2 nozzles mounted to the wall of each, one up towards the top and one down low towards the bottom, each one a different side of the cylinder...i also want to now mount the solenoids right to the cylinders immediatley before each mister

there was going to be no bottoms to them and the condensate would drain to a common DTW trough underneath them that i could drain when i needed...all this into consideration and it will most likely just be 2 cylinders as 4 would be too costly for me right now and i dont have the space for 4 trees either...lol

if i use 4 nozzles and lower my ppms to those type of levels, it will most def be cheaper so cheers to that

BD

 

[boodadood]

i can also suggest to you this...when using a pump and creating a distribution network for the flow like tubing our piping runs, it is important to hydraulically balance the flow as much as you can without the use of valves or extraneous pressure drops......most people do this already with their air pumps and stones without even realizing it......by cutting all the tubes used to the same length and by using the same type of airstones....once its all plugged in it works great....than the stones start to clog at different rates...now each stone has a unique pressure drop and when you look at your bubbles, every air stone is putting out a different amount

the same applies to mister manifolds....there is only one line coming off the pump...at one point, you have to tee the flow path into separate directions....anything after this tee should be identical in its plumbing to naturally balance the system...then its a matter of maintaining the differential experienced on each leg of the tee...for the aero user this mainly means to keep your misters unclogged

everything in the plumbing adds to the dynamic head of the system...the tubes, the fittings, the valves, the misters, changes in elevation, etc....when you split the flow path and use a different differential on each side, the side with the higher differential becomes the governor of the system...the side with the lower differential becomes the path of least resistance and uses more of the water...the lines are imbalanced and there will be pressure deviations at the misters, and hence flow deviations at the misters...one mister will be outputting more flow than the other

idk if this helps or not but i think this is where you were going on that...

BD

i wanted to add that naturally balancing your system like this does not mean you have to place all the misters in symmetric locations...you can still stagger them and place them in strategic locations...just remember the overall pressure drops on each leg and get them fairly close and there should be no problem...maybe you need a few extra feet of tubing on one side to balance a few feet of elevation change on the other, etc

when pressurizing a single supply line at one end of a tube that feeds multiple misters in parallel off that tube, then the tube should be over-sized to ensure that each mister sees the same pressure

lets say you have a 1/4" tube that has 4 misters off of it, all in parallel to each other..this tube is supplied at one end...the other end is either capped or routed elsewhere...the first mister in the path of the water will use the most water...the second mister to see the water will use the second most, and so on...as you lose water, the pressure in the line changes and so the next mister sees a different flow

take that same application of 4 misters, the same length, etc. and use a 1/2" tube...now the pipe is oversized so there is less pressure drop down the length of the pipe....this entire section now gets flooded to a common "header" pressure and each take off or mister sees the same dynamic pressure, and all else being equal the same flow

just thought i would add more thoughts to my earlier explanation

thanks

BD

 

[foresakenlion]

No thank you, I was going to quote so I will "BD appears to know quite a bit about fluid dynamics. I'll let him tell you why your straight shot is going to give you heartburn."

I could have waggered a guess and so I did before I finished reading so I'll put it here since I wrote it, though I think its been pretty covered. I'll quote it so people know it's been covered.

"I could guess, it's because the pressure at the end of the line is going to be so pathetic that it's not worth doing it as one run, I kind of already knew that was coming.

The next idea would be to have two line in parrel that apply pressure against each other at some point using the deliberate backpressure to raise pressure in the medium of the line where it's bleeding aka functioning

I was just thinking with all the fit components we're using in various set ups and the size changes involved, that's going to introduce a certain amount of turbulence into the water along the entire course of the line, in effect if there is air bubbles in the line this effect would make sure they group instead of dispersing throughout."

So you're saying BD, to use a higher volume ID tube, so this would equalize the pressure in the tube, before any bleeding acquired, right I see in your head what you mean, it would transfer force down the length of the tube instead of ejecting at the first oppurtunity, I understand those principles and can visualize them. Thank you, it's hard to understand this stuff as a visual thinker when text is very alienating, it's a strange thing.

By this same token though wouldn't it be far more effective to split off every mister as its own single run and figure out a way back channel to multiplex it?

I'm thinking tubing size this would be more expensive, but the tubing is cheap, it's everything else that is where they get ya.

Thanks for the quote, I can use that to calculate my table. Once my lazy ass measures it. BTW don't trust a quoted size on a Botanicare anything, ID, OD, at all, though, they still have some of the finest drain channels on any molded product I've seen. Not the place for it but if you guys know any molded res/tray makers give me a heads up, as I was thinking in the future a reservoir if you already have one, would make a perfect aero chamber to let your plants spread out, and the lovely drain channels, and you put two little wedges on one side of the table and bam, perfect drainage aero, eliminating the issues of inadvertent NFT.

And thank you Flora, do your two lines meet at the ends?

I just though about this, but how many of you have your nutrient res, accumulator and pump higher than the chamber? I'm betting no one, and we're all fighting the force of gravity, this is going to take a lot of extra energy for the pump to do its work than if all of our lines were at downward applies instead harnessing gravity.

BTW here are the pumps, their approx prices, on Steam Brite, and apparently from what I've seen these pumps since they're built to be uses with small tools, incorporate a triflex, which is supposed to eliminate that shaking effect on the line.

Shurflo 150psi 12 volt Viton Seals [8030-813-239] $141

Shurflo: 150 psi Viton Seals W/Bypass 115 volt 8030-863-239 [8030-863-299] $132

Shurflo: 150 psi Viton Seals 120 volt [8030-863-239] $128(http://www.depcopump.com/datasheets/shurflo/8030-863-239.pdf)

Aquatec 170 psi Triplex Diaphragm Switched Bypass Pump 115 Volts DDP 5800 [58-FLC-170] $139

That Aquatec is mighty sexy, but so is that 12V Shurflo.

 

[PetFlora]

I only use 1-2 pods at a time, with a max of 4 heads (2 per pod). I use a "Y" off the pump outlet. 1/4" ID feeder lines are unequal lengths (~ 1 ft difference). I check under the hood quite a few times a day checking for mist coverage, and to make sure heads are not clogged.

I am not noticing any issues due to dissimilar lengths with 2 heads; 4 could be different, requiring a 5th head at the half-way round point. Simply place a T so that both legs can be tied into it to better distribute/equalize the pressure.

As I have 7 starter plants in a small 14G pod (easier to manage throughout veg), I spin the plants 180^ 3-4 times a day to make sure the roots are getting equal distribution of atomized mist. My observations of this over several grows got me to rethink how many plants per pod as well as where to place them.- one per pod being ideal. How many per pod is also a factor of the overall size of plant at harvest. Small cola phenos no problem, but bushes and trees mos def. The beauty is the hardware is the same, it's just pod size, and they are relatively cheap. If you do not think ahead, you can run into crowding issues (both roots and plants). I have experienced 4 plants whose roots all hammocked together.

If you notice moisture collecting in the corners, it's a sure sign you are 'over' misting, and/or need to reposition your heads.

I have seen very inexpensive 60-80G plastic garbage containers with lids at Big Lots. Cheap, but the lids tend to lock making constant open/closing difficult. Make a new top? Keep in mind when growing trees they are top heavy, and could become heavier on one side, so you need to secure them so they don'y come crashing down, taking your tubing/pump/rez with them. Think about a heavy stepping stone (or 2) in the bottom to stablize.

In most of the threads I've read, people routinely complain about the Shur Flos burning up. I am on my 5th grow with the Aquatec 8800 running cycles 3 seconds/2: 24/7. It's small, quiet, and comes with 1/4 JG push fittings.

My current grow is 4 & 6 weeks old. The 6 week old plants have roughly tennis ball size roots, though not a ball. These roots have root hairs. The younger plants' roots are not well developed, but I am seeing root hairs on one that has a long fish bone tap root.

I am constantly amazed at how a small volume of root structure can support 3-4 leaf sets. During the first couple weeks, I do find it necessary to increase wet cycle ~ 3 seconds and shorten pause cycle (~1:15-1:45) at least until the plant has sufficient root mass to collect more of the mist and feed the plant. Feed cycles of 2seconds / 2 minute pause can cause the young roots to dry out (much of this depends on ambient room temp), that's why I am looking under the bonnet 10Xs a day.

 

[boodadood]

The next idea would be to have two line in parrel that apply pressure against each other at some point using the deliberate backpressure to raise pressure in the medium of the line where it's bleeding aka functioning

i know people do this with their set ups and i would only recommend doing it when using an accumulator....if the accumulator is pressurizing the line at the misters than you're only beating up your fittings..if you do this against the pump, you will dead head the pump and wear it out very rapidly

I was just thinking with all the fit components we're using in various set ups and the size changes involved, that's going to introduce a certain amount of turbulence into the water along the entire course of the line, in effect if there is air bubbles in the line this effect would make sure they group instead of dispersing throughout.

turbulent flow is good in this application...you will not get the results with laminar flow as velocities are too low

So you're saying BD, to use a higher volume ID tube, so this would equalize the pressure in the tube, before any bleeding acquired, right I see in your head what you mean, it would transfer force down the length of the tube instead of ejecting at the first oppurtunity, I understand those principles and can visualize them. Thank you, it's hard to understand this stuff as a visual thinker when text is very alienating, it's a strange thing.

you should also realize there will be a pressure drop when you use a larger manifold tube than the supply line...the benefit is constant pressure at the misters of the manifold

By this same token though wouldn't it be far more effective to split off every mister as its own single run and figure out a way back channel to multiplex it?

this would most likely not be cost effective because of fittings and cause more headaches than its worth

I just though about this, but how many of you have your nutrient res, accumulator and pump higher than the chamber? I'm betting no one, and we're all fighting the force of gravity, this is going to take a lot of extra energy for the pump to do its work than if all of our lines were at downward applies instead harnessing gravity.

most of us dont use much elevation changes more than a few feet...at these elevations, hydraulic head in the system is minimized and something the pump can easily overcome with minimal work...apply bernoullis equation to your route and calculate the velocity head and the hydraulic head to give you an idea of how negligible this is

BTW here are the pumps, their approx prices, on Steam Brite, and apparently from what I've seen these pumps since they're built to be uses with small tools, incorporate a triflex, which is supposed to eliminate that shaking effect on the line.

Shurflo 150psi 12 volt Viton Seals [8030-813-239] $141

Shurflo: 150 psi Viton Seals W/Bypass 115 volt 8030-863-239 [8030-863-299] $132

Shurflo: 150 psi Viton Seals 120 volt [8030-863-239] $128(http://www.depcopump.com/datasheets/shurflo/8030-863-239.pdf)

Aquatec 170 psi Triplex Diaphragm Switched Bypass Pump 115 Volts DDP 5800 [58-FLC-170] $139

That Aquatec is mighty sexy, but so is that 12V Shurflo.

from what i hear the aquatec's are the way to go...much more silent and reliable than the shurflos

 

[boodadood]

I only use 1-2 pods at a time, with a max of 4 heads (2 per pod). I use a "Y" off the pump outlet. 1/4" ID feeder lines are unequal lengths (~ 1 ft difference). I check under the hood quite a few times a day checking for mist coverage, and to make sure heads are not clogged.

i think the real difference would come with much longer lengths and many more misters...a foot here or there isnt going to make a difference considering the change in pressures in question and the HP of the pumps

If you do not think ahead, you can run into crowding issues (both roots and plants). I have experienced 4 plants whose roots all hammocked together.

If you notice moisture collecting in the corners, it's a sure sign you are 'over' misting, and/or need to reposition your heads.

I have seen very inexpensive 60-80G plastic garbage containers with lids at Big Lots. Cheap, but the lids tend to lock making constant open/closing difficult. Make a new top? Keep in mind when growing trees they are top heavy, and could become heavier on one side, so you need to secure them so they don'y come crashing down, taking your tubing/pump/rez with them. Think about a heavy stepping stone (or 2) in the bottom to stablize.

right on...didnt really think about the plants being top heavy on trash bins but it is a very valid point...provisions would have to be made ahead of time....thank you for sharing all those experiences with us as they most def provide the insight needed

BD

 

[foresakenlion]

Back when I got my card, I started researching short cycle plants, the fastest flowering cannabis strains on the planet, I had a fairly complete list, the vast majority of them are either Afghanica which is its own line, and Indicas from the Pakistani-Hindu-Kush area. So no worries, I am thoroughly dedicated to the more bonsai style, if conditions were different I'd love to play with sativas, but that is better left for others.

On the lines, I'm getting that either two lines or a closed loop with an outlet to prevent back pressure is the total of your advices, do most of you have yours configured similar to this?

Well I think you guys sealed the deal as an Aquatec, if they're quieter and actual users are reporting issues, then I'd rather side with caution on this one.

Dry fog develops roots just like HPA, they're not as thick though, so I know exactly what we're looking for here.

BD if turbulence in the lines is good, would adding a venturi inline be beneficial hypothetically?

 

[boodadood]

Back when I got my card, I started researching short cycle plants, the fastest flowering cannabis strains on the planet, I had a fairly complete list, the vast majority of them are either Afghanica which is its own line, and Indicas from the Pakistani-Hindu-Kush area. So no worries, I am thoroughly dedicated to the more bonsai style, if conditions were different I'd love to play with sativas, but that is better left for others.

thats a nice list to have bro...we usually go with local clones or some beans from attitude

On the lines, I'm getting that either two lines or a closed loop with an outlet to prevent back pressure is the total of your advices, do most of you have yours configured similar to this?

i dont have jack shit configured yet man...i started this thinking i could design a nice small skid that can do everything i need it to...just plant it near the grow room and hook up a supply line, done....im still trying to conceptual what my own system will be before i order shit or put anything together....the more i learn the more i realize that its really to each his own on this shit...the stories i read on the problems of HPA results seem to stem from timing, pressure, and temperature problems

i cant really say much on the timing issue...i really feel like this is a function of setup, strain, and growth stage from what i can gather....temp problems are usually related to ventilation or cooling issues...i can deal with those...the pressure issues are something i have ZERO experience with in terms of HPA...what i do have is a water systems engineering background of designing, maintaining, and improving large process water systems...the plant i work in has over 3 dozen pumps pushing over 4000 gpm in pipes as large as 24"...our routes go down to 1/8" tubes...its all stainless and its all freaking beautiful....we use isolation valves and we balance our head by VFDs and flow restrictors...common headers and sized up manifolds are employed at every user point to help us eliminate the need for balancing valves...in fact we do not use any balancing valves...its all engineered on dynamic head principles...we cannot use regular balancing valves for a slew of reasons but the point im trying to make is we maintain miles of pipe at a common differential between supply and return...if the load is over our differential than we take a penalty on our delta Ts...if the load is under our differential than we restrict the flow to slow it down to our acceptable delta Ts

this is all similar to HPA because in this circumstance the connected load is the misters...the differential is the mister supply pressure as the spray is into the atmosphere with zero gauge pressure....so its a very similar design...a common header pressure ensure that all misters see the same pressure and therefore the same flow...the difference between my experience and HPA is that i deal with 100s of feet of pipe and tube at a time...in closet HPA grows its usually under a dozen feet of plumbing

i wish i had more practical HPA experience to draw upon but im learning...and im building my concept...id like a high performance system the first time around

Well I think you guys sealed the deal as an Aquatec, if they're quieter and actual users are reporting issues, then I'd rather side with caution on this one.

Dry fog develops roots just like HPA, they're not as thick though, so I know exactly what we're looking for here.

BD if turbulence in the lines is good, would adding a venturi inline be beneficial hypothetically?[/QUOTE]

 

[boodadood]

i keep fuckin the quote thing up...lol

idk about adding a venturi inline with HPA...venturis are either used as a flow meter or as a way to incorporate micro bubbles into the flow path...in the case of the flow meter, im sure youre not talking about this application....in the case of the bubbles, youre not adding anything to the turbulence of the flow, youre just adding bubbles...the restriction of the venturi would mean more pressure in the line but with diaphragm pumps this could be negligble...shooting from the hip i would have to say that bubbles in an HPA line would be more trouble than good...youre adding bubbles and at high pressures this could promote cavitation at your fittings and valves (small orifices)...this means the flow would be loud and bothersome to your wetted parts

 

[foresakenlion]

Timing is easy, just don't deviate from AgriHouse 3s/3min, 1s/1m, it's when people start getting into custom timings and experimentation on this that it gets overly complex, the basics are very KISS.

Thank you for explaining that, I got what you said and I understand why the line pressure will be equalize, I didn't know the orfice size had so little effect. If I understand right it's more a siphoning effect that keeps the solution contained before being ejected in unison?

Cloudtops has NPT T fittings, and the tefen sprayers, you could attach them to some kind of scaffolding, inside your chamber, then arrange them making sure to place them in the corners at angles, or just a run if using curves. This way you'll get even coverage. This gives me an idea in a cyclinder, you could make a scaffolding that is basically a right angle spiraling all the way up, once assembled you'd have the perfect platform to securely fasten your T's.

Mike Young, I asked on another thread I can't track down about his misters which are the raindrip ones I believe they're called from home depot, he was saying he got a high quality mist off them, but they use barbs to puncture the line, still not sure that's going to hold up without leaks, which really don't matter in a lawn watering application, but do in an aero.

The Venturi thing was a bad idea? Good to know.

BD what kind of chamber are you planning on using?

 

[boodadood]

so i went back to the drawing board....i switched out some shit...i added some shit...i was bored and HPA dope growin takes alotta shit...i took away the suction pressure gauge to make room for other shit...i added the timer for my lights and scrubber and the timer for my co2 regulator/solenoid...i also mounted the fan speed controller to the same panel...there is a humidity/temp remote sensor mounted to the top that will read the air and humidity in the tent...these things i already have and thought it would be a good idea to get organized

i added two solar powered digital temp sensors...they are only 18 bucks each and come with a 4' probe length...im going to stick one in each root chamber...the probes are stainless steel

i included a shot of just the plumbing so you can see my routing...i think it is correct but if you notice something, maybe the PRV plumbed wrong, please let me know

inside the tent i have 2 cinderblocks holding 2 buckets..each bucket actually has another bucket in it...i will cut out the bottom of the top bucket and put a mesh screen there...the bottom of the bottom buckets will have open drains down between the blocks to the DTW tub...the shopvac will suck this dry on a regular basis

the solenoids are each connected to a 1/2" pvc capped manifold with 2 misters on it...they are offset in height to get the high and low spots of the root masses...im hoping the mounted misters to the bucket walls will be enough to support each manifold

in reality i believe the buckets and blocks will be closer together with a small DTW tub to leave room in the tent for a fan or some other shit if i need it

the full set up consists of a 48x24x60 tent...i already have and use this tent with the 400w 6" cool tube...there are 4 buckets in it now...with the HPA i will only have 2 plant sites...so i know it looks crowded but its really not so bad...there is a white pvc frame in there that i currently use to scrog...the height of the scrog screen is adjustable...there is about 2.25 ish feet to grow and i can raise the light a little more if needed...i also use c02 enrichment during mid to late flowering...what i dont have is the big fan and carbon scrubber...these things are on my priority list right now as i need them for my current grow

the whole thing will sit along one side of a small walk in closet type room that is air conditioned

like i said i need to get the scrubber and the fan regardless...and i already own 75% of the shit in these models...so im just lookin at the HPA equipment as my only expense...so far im around 5-600 bucks in my BOM...with fan and scrubber around $900

idk think thats bad at all considering it pays itself off after one successful crop

i get paid once a month so it blows...im going to have to piece this shit out over like 2 or 3 months just to gather the shit...by then my current grow will be just wrapped up and ill be ready to start racin!

any comments are very much appreciated...im a first timer and still learning