Snake Oil, Horticultural Myths, Horticultural Urban Legends, and Persuaders

[Samwell Seed Well]

. . . . .and him have no friends so him have to make up friends . . . .

you can make friends on the internet . .. . . . .. .?

 

[djblowens]

Alot trolls lately

 

[Uncle Ben]

Alot trolls lately

Yep, that's enough fellers. Get back on topic please or I'll have to report you to one of the hall monitors.

 

[Butcher Bob]

HOLYFUCKINGSHITHOWTHEHELLAREYA!!!

Sup..........old dude.

I reg'd jus fer you.


See yer still preachin the past. Git up to speed willya...farmers is droppin the myco with seed, works great.


Odd notes, some related, some not...

- Fuk that Dalat. Bitch is too lanky, too fluffy, too slow, and no go....without that tropical environment. Made a few beans though, Serious Seeds Kali Mist daddy...see it that tames it down any. Weirdest thing I've ever seen seed-wise, got two distinctly different seed colorations. We'll see if the pic will attach.

- Ya shoulda done them Sensi Skunk beans, it really wuz a good strain...good fer breedin work too, least so far. I open pollinated the 5 ya sent (2 boys, 3 girls), so I got some if ya wanna give 'em a shot.

- Doin a Organic vs Synthetic comp grow finally...we'll jus see who's better. Bob's first Soil Mix vs Heavy Harvest by Nutrilife. All yer juicy content info is in the prefight ceremonies.

- Cloning?....so simple a caveman could do it. You'd be proud Ben, I did it in dirt, usin only styro cups, dirt, and a tub to keep the humidity up...oh, and my hands, those were the only tools I used. No bubble cloner, no rooting agent, no sterile blade....caveman din't have that shit.



Jus thought I give ya a shout.

Grow on
Bob

 

[BeefSteak]

Amazing thread, many fertilizer considerations to ponder.

Im not getting the chemical debate very well here though, im right in assuming man made chem synthesised ferts arent great when compared to natural inorganic ferts (lets pretend i said the word organic but loosly termed, think were all aware organic/inorganic samething etc etc). Im promoting soil life and thinking synth chem ferts detract from this effort?? Done my research many times just looking for the definitive word UncleBen?? Maybe ive missed somthing or maybe synth chem forms of ferts depend on somthing else to substantiate what im asking, confused.

I use my cannabis specific but scrutinise them down to every last chemical, someone wants to call them specific to cannabis then by all means do but i dont find anything specific in a standard two part fertilizer unless the grower himself applies the righ amounts and relevant NPK etc suitable for his plant and grow. Hell call them sat and indica specific if you wanna bust some noobs balls but again knowing things like Nitrate and Ammoniacal values plus available P/K is what really counts.

One final question UB if thats allright, would you endorse making and selling your own cannabis specific ferts? Obviously different and detailed ingredients etc etc but if the chance arose to cut through the previous cannabis specific ferts with some real knowledge and new ideas would you do it??

Sorry if its a dumbish question but after reading i kinda wanted to ask it. Thanks

 

[Afka]

There is no such thing as a cannabis specific fertilizer.
There is such a thing as cannabis specific marketing.

Synthetic chemicals are detrimental to soil life. Amending with organic matter and using organic based fertilizers allow the micro-fauna to thrive. Increasing your soil tilth, structure, nutrient retention capacity, aeration, aggregation, etc etc etc.

Plants will "eat" mineralized inorganic nutrients whether they come from soil micro-fauna or a factory. If the factory is a network of millions and billions of organisms living right by the plant roots, costing you no $, paying for production, shipping, water (liquid nutrients are water)
Better yet, plants have evolved with these organisms and exhude substances by their roots to attract and stimulate microlife.

 

[Uncle Ben]

HOLYFUCKINGSHITHOWTHEHELLAREYA!!!

Sup..........old dude.

I reg'd jus fer you.


See yer still preachin the past. Git up to speed willya...farmers is droppin the myco with seed, works great.


Odd notes, some related, some not...

- Fuk that Dalat. Bitch is too lanky, too fluffy, too slow, and no go....without that tropical environment. Made a few beans though, Serious Seeds Kali Mist daddy...see it that tames it down any. Weirdest thing I've ever seen seed-wise, got two distinctly different seed colorations. We'll see if the pic will attach.

- Ya shoulda done them Sensi Skunk beans, it really wuz a good strain...good fer breedin work too, least so far. I open pollinated the 5 ya sent (2 boys, 3 girls), so I got some if ya wanna give 'em a shot.

- Doin a Organic vs Synthetic comp grow finally...we'll jus see who's better. Bob's first Soil Mix vs Heavy Harvest by Nutrilife. All yer juicy content info is in the prefight ceremonies.

- Cloning?....so simple a caveman could do it. You'd be proud Ben, I did it in dirt, usin only styro cups, dirt, and a tub to keep the humidity up...oh, and my hands, those were the only tools I used. No bubble cloner, no rooting agent, no sterile blade....caveman din't have that shit.



Jus thought I give ya a shout.

Grow on
Bob

Well cut me off and call me Shorty! What in the hell have you been up to lately other than pissin' off your time with the PG meth heads still debating if 9/11 was in inside yob or not?

Genetics - don't blame me cause you can't retain a frickin' leaf 2 weeks into harvest and keep a plant below 8' LOL. Guess I shouldn't have sent you those Dalat beans considering you're growing at the bottom of a glacier and don't have the smarts to close the front door after feeding the pot belly pig, chickens, and goats.

So you be the cloning king too, graduating from the Air Layering King, eh? Got some good ditchweed ya can play with, ya.

Anyhoo, good to hear from you!

I hang with some cool cavemen here: http://riddlem3.com/index.php/board,47.0.html

Take care mi amigo,
Tio Bendejo

 

[Uncle Ben]

One final question UB if thats allright, would you endorse making and selling your own cannabis specific ferts? Obviously different and detailed ingredients etc etc but if the chance arose to cut through the previous cannabis specific ferts with some real knowledge and new ideas would you do it??

Sorry if its a dumbish question but after reading i kinda wanted to ask it. Thanks

Give your plants a balanced diet and be done with it. Simple and complete foods are Dyna-Gro for soil-less or Jack's for soil.

 

[Butcher Bob]

Well cut me off and call me Shorty! What in the hell have you been up to lately other than pissin' off your time with the PG meth heads still debating if 9/11 was in inside yob or not?

You know that PG dried up & blowed away, right?
I bin at TokeCity since. Basically jus takin after one a yer better qualities...I try to help folks.

Since I finally got around to mixin up an organic soil, I bin spendin a lotta time tryin to learn soil biology....all those lil microbe guys. Is interestin, cuz ya got the dopers that git all excited aboot anythin, but the farmers...well, they wanna see some proof. Wuz helpin a buddy as he wuz seedin his soybeans this spring. Monsanto had coated 'em in an inoculate, which he described as killin off the competitive myco & other microbe threats, and then we added the beneficial myco in powder form to the seed as it wuz bein loaded into the hopper on his no-till planter. That no-till farmin is great...had all his seed in, as other farmers were jus startin to seed. On the other side, I watch the dopers use it in conjunction with synthetic nutes.

Bin gittin schooled big time by my outdoor garden. This indoor stuff don't 'xactly apply...least not the same way. Last two years I bin gittin hit with powdery mildew & leaf blight...hits the cukes, then the zucchini, then the melons.

Genetics - don't blame me cause you can't retain a frickin' leaf 2 weeks into harvest and keep a plant below 8' LOL. Guess I shouldn't have sent you those Dalat beans considering you're growing at the bottom of a glacier and don't have the smarts to close the front door after feeding the pot belly pig, chickens, and goats.

I'm gittin better. I keep lookin fer a good alternative to wut the grow shops got, cuz EVERYTHING is fukkin packed with K. Is why I'm finally tryin the organic soil. I figger'd out the approximate N-P-K value of all the food I put in, comes out to aboot 5-5-1, which seems to be aboot opposite to all the canna nutes. Still gittin some leaf die-off late in flower with my canna nutes...I suspect the over-abundance of K.

And speakin of K...wuz at a buddy's house & he wuz showin me this "Snow Storm" stuff, s'pose to make yer buds kick ass ya know, and asked my opinion aboot it. Well I din't have a clue, cuz I don't use all that hyped shit, so I read the label...0-0-3...price tag sez $33 fer the quart...only ingredient? soluble potash. "Potash?!" I sez, "can't ya git that shit at the grain elevator fer like $60 a ton?" I wuz exaggeratin a bit, but he got the point.

So you be the cloning king too, graduating from the Air Layering King, eh? Got some good ditchweed ya can play with, ya.

I jus did it to show folks that it ain't a complicated process. Did a repost of the Air-Layering too, complete with yer instructional jus like at OG.


Hope you & the mrs are doin good. I see you keep gittin hit with brutal weather patterns down there...hopefully they ain't bin takin a toll on ya.

 

[Uncle Ben]

You know that PG dried up & blowed away, right?
I bin at TokeCity since. Basically jus takin after one a yer better qualities...I try to help folks.

Yes I did. IOW Gad took the donations and did a "hurray for me, fuck you" drill and ran out on his buddies. Hope TokeCity is to your liking. As usual, someone stole my handle at Smoke's MPG, not that I care to post there with any regularity.

Since I finally got around to mixin up an organic soil, I bin spendin a lotta time tryin to learn soil biology....all those lil microbe guys. Is interestin, cuz ya got the dopers that git all excited aboot anythin, but the farmers...well, they wanna see some proof. Wuz helpin a buddy as he wuz seedin his soybeans this spring. Monsanto had coated 'em in an inoculate, which he described as killin off the competitive myco & other microbe threats, and then we added the beneficial myco in powder form to the seed as it wuz bein loaded into the hopper on his no-till planter. That no-till farmin is great...had all his seed in, as other farmers were jus startin to seed. On the other side, I watch the dopers use it in conjunction with synthetic nutes.

Bin gittin schooled big time by my outdoor garden. This indoor stuff don't 'xactly apply...least not the same way. Last two years I bin gittin hit with powdery mildew & leaf blight...hits the cukes, then the zucchini, then the melons.

Gonna have to keep up a fungicide spray regiment and of course only water in the morning if you get the leaves wet. PM will kill those veggies in no time. Remember the Sierra Gold I recommended? Had a fine crop of sugar sweet fruit this year.

I'm gittin better. I keep lookin fer a good alternative to wut the grow shops got, cuz EVERYTHING is fukkin packed with K. Is why I'm finally tryin the organic soil. I figger'd out the approximate N-P-K value of all the food I put in, comes out to aboot 5-5-1, which seems to be aboot opposite to all the canna nutes. Still gittin some leaf die-off late in flower with my canna nutes...I suspect the over-abundance of K.

I try to warn as many as I can about the warped NPK values. So you're still using Canna, eh? I warned you on that one too. Many have wised up around here and are using Peters or Dyna-Gro, 2 products I preached about at PG and previous sites we used to post to. If you're losing leaves, stick with Dyna-Gro's 9-3-6. Yes, throughout flowering too.

Monsanto's soybean innoculate is harmless to the myco pop. Tell your farmer friend to relax. Also, once his field has been innoculated, he doesn't need to treat subsequent sowings. The flora will be there naturally.

Myco spores populate soils via movement by wind and rain FWIW.

Glad you're getting a taste of being a farmer. Trust me, 99% of the public don't know how rough it is but, my Ag biz has taken off like wildfire, I have a no till veggie garden too that was redone, what I have wanted for 30 years, and is now a raised bed 50"W X 50' long. Backfilled it with compost and fine sandy loam. Kick's ass. Asparagus crowns that were planted last spring are 6' tall. Then there is my NEW commercial greenhouse in which I've planted avocado and citrus trees in Rootmaker pots in this high tech computer controlled environment house with 10' columns and a 18' atrium peak, covered in special polycarbonate that diffuses light (Palram's SolarSoft). First avocado will have cost me $40K, but it's only money, right? Will also do tropicals and grow tomatoes in the winter. Check out one of the "small" pots - 23"H X 24"W. Got a 105' roll of Rootbuilder so I could make my own pots. Just cut to length, tie ends together with a few cable ties and Viola, you got the perfect pot! Backfilled the bottomless pots with a custom Bendejo mix of fine sandy loam, river sand, vermiculite, compost, peat, pine bark mulch, the meals, encapsulated 12 month food - 18-4-9 wtih micros and dolomite. Would make a great cannabis soil mix too! Made up about 2 cu. yds. using my tractor's bucket to mix on a concrete slab. This RootMaker material has "holy" nipples which directs roots downward and outward for air pruning and being bottomless, the trees will eventually root directly into native clay loam. I ripped rows with my tractor's chisel before the contractor erected the house. Pot is topped off with a 4" mulch of pine needles and pine bark mulch.

And speakin of K...wuz at a buddy's house & he wuz showin me this "Snow Storm" stuff, s'pose to make yer buds kick ass ya know, and asked my opinion aboot it. Well I din't have a clue, cuz I don't use all that hyped shit, so I read the label...0-0-3...price tag sez $33 fer the quart...only ingredient? soluble potash. "Potash?!" I sez, "can't ya git that shit at the grain elevator fer like $60 a ton?" I wuz exaggeratin a bit, but he got the point.

A 2X4 upside the head sometimes doesn't get these fools attention, hah!

I jus did it to show folks that it ain't a complicated process. Did a repost of the Air-Layering too, complete with yer instructional jus like at OG.

Cool...

Hope you & the mrs are doin good. I see you keep gittin hit with brutal weather patterns down there...hopefully they ain't bin takin a toll on ya.

I put in plant material that is drought tolerant, but it has been the hottest and driest past year on record. We have had only 5.2" of rain since last October. The fires, the farm and ranch losses has been unbelievable, in the billions. Drove by a very large lake yesterday near Austin and it's nothing but islands. Rivers and creeks dried up. No forage for livestock or wildlife, just dirt. La Nina to blame and it's not going to break until late spring.

Take care,
Tio

 

[Butcher Bob]

As usual, someone stole my handle at Smoke's MPG, not that I care to post there with any regularity.

I figger'd it weren't you. Place is a fukkin ghost town since ~Guano~ had the gall to wish Lil Ma "happy cancer, hope you die"....some folks kin be real pricks.

Gonna have to keep up a fungicide spray regiment...

Yeah, that's wut my old man sed too...gonna hafta jus automatically treat every spring.

Remember the Sierra Gold I recommended? Had a fine crop of sugar sweet fruit this year.

Good to hear. Is wut I did this year too. Only got 4 to develop fully b'fore the leaf blight took hold....but it wuz nice goin out & pickin breakfast 4 days ina row.

So you're still using Canna, eh?

Well, not the Canna brand, but we know these grow shop nutes are aimed at canna farmers. Still usin the Ionic brand. The synthetics I'm tryin now are Nutrilife's Heavy Harvest...from the commercial canna croppers in Canada....we'll see how they do stacked up against the organic soil.

Monsanto's soybean innoculate is harmless to the myco pop. Tell your farmer friend to relax. Also, once his field has been innoculated, he doesn't need to treat subsequent sowings. The flora will be there naturally.

Oh he ain't worried, he luvs the stuff. He's gotta treat every sowing, cuz the no-till has him sprayin Round-up prior to planting. Kill off the field, wait fer the Round-up to go inactive, then plant.

Myco spores populate soils via movement by wind and rain FWIW.

Hmmm, hadn't thought of that. Still learnin I am.

Glad you're getting a taste of being a farmer.

Me too. Lotta down time fer him, but when it's time, the hours are loooong.

...my Ag biz has taken off like wildfire, I have a no till veggie garden too that was redone, what I have wanted for 30 years, and is now a raised bed 50"W X 50' long. Backfilled it with compost and fine sandy loam. Kick's ass. Asparagus crowns that were planted last spring are 6' tall. Then there is my NEW commercial greenhouse in which I've planted avocado and citrus trees in Rootmaker pots in this high tech computer controlled environment house with 10' columns and a 18' atrium peak, covered in special polycarbonate that diffuses light (Palram's SolarSoft). First avocado will have cost me $40K, but it's only money, right? Will also do tropicals and grow tomatoes in the winter. Check out one of the "small" pots - 23"H X 24"W. Got a 105' roll of Rootbuilder so I could make my own pots. Just cut to length, tie ends together with a few cable ties and Viola, you got the perfect pot! Backfilled the bottomless pots with a custom Bendejo mix of fine sandy loam, river sand, vermiculite, compost, peat, pine bark mulch, the meals, encapsulated 12 month food - 18-4-9 wtih micros and dolomite. Would make a great cannabis soil mix too! Made up about 2 cu. yds. using my tractor's bucket to mix on a concrete slab. This RootMaker material has "holy" nipples which directs roots downward and outward for air pruning and being bottomless, the trees will eventually root directly into native clay loam. I ripped rows with my tractor's chisel before the contractor erected the house. Pot is topped off with a 4" mulch of pine needles and pine bark mulch.

I bin wundrin how yers ops bin doin. Bet yer luvin that greenhouse.
I seen that pot material....wuz wundrin how it does. Everyone I've seen use it seems to luv it.

The fires...

That's the one I wuz worried aboot the most.....had bin hopin you'd bin spared havin to deal with that kinda devastation. Seems like half yer state burnt up.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Yep Ionic it was. Just a thought, what do you have against Walmart or nursery brands, normal stuff where you can easily find out what's in it? Nutrilife's Heavy Harvest Grow, a 7-0-4, two part stuff again? Micro, 2-5-10? I thought you said you had weaned yourself off the high K teats? To each his own.

Yeah, having fun with the greenhouse. Gonna take a siesta and program the controller when I git up.

Recommend RootMaker's 1-7 gallon molded pots.

later......

 

[Butcher Bob]

Well Wally's I stand against simply based on principle....fuk those commie bastards. But I got no problem with nurseries. I like Tractor Supply Company, it's the farmer's K-mart.

I wuz gonna run Osmocote along with this organics vs synthetics run, but I couldn't find appropriate information on how much to add to the soil in the pots...they are real vague aboot how much to add. From wut I could find, the regular gardening community weren't too happy aboot that. Most of 'em thought if ya got a product out on the market that long, then ya better know. Many that I saw jus went to a different brand, just fer that reason. Works great in my veggie garden outside though. I jus sprinkle it on & scratch it in.

I think I'd like to go completely organic. The food mix fer the soil wuz only $3.41 fer 16 gallons of soil. The bulk of that cost ($3.00) bein the blood, bone, & kelp meals. The alfalfa, lime, & epsom salt were a pittance.

The Heavy Harvest...<sigh>...yeah, another high K feed. But, my buddy's got a grow shop, he's friends with the canadian cropper that has ties to the company somehow, & asked me to try 'em. You know me, I'll try anythin out, jus to see. I'm sure it probly does great with yield, but I'm more concerned with the affects to aroma, flavor, & potency. Here the analysis they have on the labels:

Micro 2-5-10
Total Nitrogen (N)...1.5%
Nitrate Nitrogen (N)...1.5%
Phosphoric Acid (P2O5)...4.0%
Soluable Potash (K2O)...7.0%
Total Magnesium (Mg)...1.0%
Water Soluable Magnesium (Mg)...1.0%
Sulfer (S)(combined)...1.5%
Boron (B)...0.01%
Copper (Cu)(Chelated)...0.01%
Iron (Fe)(Chelated)...0.08%
Manganese (Mn)(Chelated)...0.02%
Molybdenum (Mo)(Chelated)...0.001%
Zinc (Zn)(Chelated)...0.02%
Chlorine (Cl)(Chelated)...less than 0.05%

Grow 7-0-4
Total Nitrogen (N)...5.2%
Nitrate Nitrogen (N)...4.1%
Ammoniacal Nitrogen (N)...1.1%
Available Phosphoric Acid (P2O5)...0.0%
Soluable Potash (K2O)...2.8%
Calcium (Ca)...3.0%

Bloom 3-7-8
Total Nitrogen (N)...2.4%
Nitrate Nitrogen (N)...2.4%
Available Phosphoric Acid (P2O5)...5.7%
Soluable Potash (K2O)...6.6%
Calcium (Ca)...4.6%

Half is always the Micro, the other half is either the Grow or the Bloom, depending on wut stage yer at. So gives 4.5-2.5-7 fer grow, and 2.5-6-9 fer bloom. I jus don't understand why K is so high, seems odd.

Double checked my organic soil calculation, comes out to approx 5-4-1. I got some Liquid Seaweed on hand if I need the extra K, jus don't think I'll need it.

And that's not the only thing I see from the cropper. They's runnin CO2 & vertical bulbs...in greenhouses. They's runnin a 12 off/6 on lighting schedule fer flowering...not everythin, but playin around with it. And they got these really cool ballasts...

They are microprocessor controlled, electronic ballasts. The 1000w ballast I looked at, weighs less than 2 pounds, has slotted sheet case rather than cast fin, puts out almost no heat, and slays other ballasts in the output department. The Lumitek rep stopped in my buddy's shop with one a them fancy PAR devices, tested a 1000w Lumitek vs one of these 600w....6% difference. Lumitek guy thought his fancy PAR equipment wuz broken. Still tryin to git more info on 'em... they's a lil tight lipped right now due to some patent pending crap.

BooBoy's bin usin a similar ballast called Micro Mole....sez it's way better than his old ballasts.


So wut kinda sqft-age ya got to play around in there?
Wut ya gonna put in it?...you jus doin the avacado & citrus?

 

[Uncle Ben]

So gives 4.5-2.5-7 fer grow, and 2.5-6-9 fer bloom. I jus don't understand why K is so high, seems odd.

I have yet had someone explain why the infatuation with K by cannabis specific vendors. You don't find this with normal, legitimate manufacturers. Jack Peters would be caught dead doing a "Grow" that had that kind of K amount. The norm is a 3-1-2 or 30-10-10 or 21-7-7.

Hey BB, wish I could respond to the electronic ballasts and such. Aint doin' indoors anymore so I'm out of touch with the "un-natural" world of lighting you might say. I have acres to play with now.

I like Wally's prices. Employees remind of a bunch of trolls. Where I live, Mom and Pop trump Walmart any day.

I'm doing tropicals in the greenhouse.

UB

 

[420johnny]

I dont grow bud at the moment but things like superthrive ive seen alot of people say its snake oil but what ive seen in my (totally non clinical) trials on green leafy vegetables is the ones that i apply superthrive to get a lighter green colour and have leaves 2-3 times bigger.

This is in two pots of the same size, same soil same light same watering schedule per day except one of them gets superthrive every time i feed them the other just got hydro nutes that i use in soil.

 

[Uncle Ben]

I dont grow bud at the moment but things like superthrive ive seen alot of people say its snake oil but what ive seen in my (totally non clinical) trials on green leafy vegetables is the ones that i apply superthrive to get a lighter green colour and have leaves 2-3 times bigger.

This is in two pots of the same size, same soil same light same watering schedule per day except one of them gets superthrive every time i feed them the other just got hydro nutes that i use in soil.

I'm still on the fence regarding Superthrive. TX A&M professionals that really know this stuff and another guru who retired as Texas Forest Service employee say it IS snake oil. I only use it cause I have it on the shelf and it's quite old.

Curious, why would you want a lighter green colored leaf?

UB

 

[Butcher Bob]

The new ballasts & hoods they got out now make our old stuff look like child's play.
Gonna end up junkin my analogs as soon as I kin afford it.

I'm doing tropicals in the greenhouse.

I'm half expectin to see ya pop in an orchids section.

 

[Uncle Ben]

I'm half expectin to see ya pop in an orchids section.

Nope, but I am in love with my Southern Ag Chelated Citrus Nutritional Spray. Yah should getcha sum. http://www.southernag.com/docs/labels_msds/chcitr.pdf

It's bonafide!

 

[BeefSteak]

I have used nutrilite ferts with great results, seems somthing that crosses the americano european border easier than jacks or other ferts. Cheap and complete plus i think non chemical ones in my shops.

 

[Butcher Bob]

No PMs?!....do I gotta dig up yer e-mail? Is it same as it wuz b'fore?