More climate change uncertainty. The models don't fit the actual observations

[ginjawarrior]

This one had a very tiny internal combustion engine. I was wrong about the weight (I spent yesterday with someone from the company smoking cigars and discussing employment options in the event I decide the commute is worth the trouble). It is an experimental model and btw, they had a pickup in the lab. You aren't going to get your wish just yet.

Yes energy density is a tough nut and I quietly, don't believe we will ever manage the energy density of gasoline - ever, except if we go to some of the extraordinary measures I discussed with you involving 10 to 15k pounds per square inch containers. But if we realize that these engines operate at about 25 percent efficiency where electric motors can convert up to 90 percent of their energy input into useable mechanical energy a new vista emerges. A whole lot of the density of gasoline is only necessary because the engine itself is so inefficient.

I think I mentioned the torque produced by some of these motors and that, my friend explained is why I experienced such unbelievable acceleration. That the car will only go 125 miles per hour is somewhat irrelevant here - the limitations are because of the gearing (or lack of it) in the car. How fast would you like your electric car to be able to go? I would be quite satisfied with 120 mph, especially if I could get there in 4 or 5 seconds. I would be even more satisfied if I could achieve that velocity going up hill, and starting at any speed - mind you I am not quoting real numbers and I gather that I am not even supposed to (If I actually knew them).


There are problems with all electrics that are inherent with many alternative fuel vehicles. I have several friends who own gaseous fuel cars. The fueling infrastructure for CNG vehicles is spotty and they often find themselves in pioneer land, new adventures in driving where they must plot their trips around available fueling stations. They can't simply go to places they don't know about, their Iphone apps are unreliable, some of the fueling stations are not available to the public. Some of the older stations don't pump at the higher rated capacities and so if they plan on a given range from a full tank they might not make it. (there are two different delivery pressures). If you do run out of fuel, you have no option but to be towed to a fueling location - even if you find you have run out of fuel in your own driveway. Some of the same problems will be present for all electrics. I know there is some work being done on "explosive" generation of electricity - enough so that you would "detonate" your portable one use charging device in order to put enough electricity in your car to get you a dozen miles or so but I know little about them, otherwise you will need to be towed. It can take some amount of time to get a full charge in your garage, the Karma solar roof is a tiny trickle (no matter what they say to the contrary btw).

But consider the disadvantages of the Model T. it was underpowered and needed to be pulled by horse up some hills, tires blew out constantly, gas was difficult to find as well, early on. If we are to wait until everything is perfect before we begin we will wait forever.

"Combustion engine 2.0 litres (120 cu in) Turbocharged Ecotec VVT DI LNF I4"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Karma

2 litre engines arent tiny engines

the solar roof on those cars are for ancillaries

electric cars are very good for what they do in urban enviroments (the enviromental cost of their batteries maybe not so much)

lpg converted cars might be a stop gap hydrogen too looks good but storing it is a bitch

i'm pretty partial atm to the idea of making our own gas (but for that we need a large surplus power source)

 

[cannabineer]

This one had a very tiny internal combustion engine. I was wrong about the weight (I spent yesterday with someone from the company smoking cigars and discussing employment options in the event I decide the commute is worth the trouble). It is an experimental model and btw, they had a pickup in the lab. You aren't going to get your wish just yet.

Yes energy density is a tough nut and I quietly, don't believe we will ever manage the energy density of gasoline - ever, except if we go to some of the extraordinary measures I discussed with you involving 10 to 15k pounds per square inch containers. But if we realize that these engines operate at about 25 percent efficiency where electric motors can convert up to 90 percent of their energy input into useable mechanical energy a new vista emerges. A whole lot of the density of gasoline is only necessary because the engine itself is so inefficient.

I think I mentioned the torque produced by some of these motors and that, my friend explained is why I experienced such unbelievable acceleration. That the car will only go 125 miles per hour is somewhat irrelevant here - the limitations are because of the gearing (or lack of it) in the car. How fast would you like your electric car to be able to go? I would be quite satisfied with 120 mph, especially if I could get there in 4 or 5 seconds. I would be even more satisfied if I could achieve that velocity going up hill, and starting at any speed - mind you I am not quoting real numbers and I gather that I am not even supposed to (If I actually knew them).


There are problems with all electrics that are inherent with many alternative fuel vehicles. I have several friends who own gaseous fuel cars. The fueling infrastructure for CNG vehicles is spotty and they often find themselves in pioneer land, new adventures in driving where they must plot their trips around available fueling stations. They can't simply go to places they don't know about, their Iphone apps are unreliable, some of the fueling stations are not available to the public. Some of the older stations don't pump at the higher rated capacities and so if they plan on a given range from a full tank they might not make it. (there are two different delivery pressures). If you do run out of fuel, you have no option but to be towed to a fueling location - even if you find you have run out of fuel in your own driveway. Some of the same problems will be present for all electrics. I know there is some work being done on "explosive" generation of electricity - enough so that you would "detonate" your portable one use charging device in order to put enough electricity in your car to get you a dozen miles or so but I know little about them, otherwise you will need to be towed. It can take some amount of time to get a full charge in your garage, the Karma solar roof is a tiny trickle (no matter what they say to the contrary btw).

But consider the disadvantages of the Model T. it was underpowered and needed to be pulled by horse up some hills, tires blew out constantly, gas was difficult to find as well, early on. If we are to wait until everything is perfect before we begin we will wait forever.

I had a long long reply to this, but got caught in a Cloudflare.

To summarize, the inefficiency of IC engines is inherent to any vehicle, I think. Electrics move the inefficient heat-engine portion to generators, which can of course be run at their efficiency optimum. Almost all electric power is made by heat engines. Wind and hydro uses natural heat engines (removing Carnot efficiency concerns), solar-thermal the more familiar artificial ones. Only photovoltaic doesn't use a heat engine anywhere.

Fuel cells fascinate me, but they too are only as efficient as their electrochemistry. With H2/O2 this can be as high as 83%, but then there are other losses, like polarization loss under load, that kick in. The real trouble with fuel cells is that they seem to be technically difficult: expensive to make, not yet available in a reliable durable unit, and fuel-inflexible. But for the rural uses I won't exclude, they are probably a good bet for the future.

I would be satisfied with an electric car that goes 80mph. But I see current electrics as specialty vehicles for urbanites, great for light shopping and the commute, if it isn't over a "bedroom community" distance. As a non-urbanite, what I require of a car is that it can carry four people my size (most cars will not, unless you spec cruiserweight sedans, or worse, those heavy nouveau minivans called "crossovers") with their luggage and other spoils. And since the recharge/refuel evolution for an electric is not fast or easily found en route, I would require range, San Jose to Reno and return at max GVWR. There are hydrocarbon-fueled choices that'll do this, and should it be needed, refueling them is easy and quick.

That doesn't mean that electrics won't be as easy and universal to recharge one day. (I take your point about the model T.) But for now, they don't make an electric to entice me. If I lived in a metro area with subsidies for charging and parking an electric, I could be enticed. cn

 

[canndo]

I had a long long reply to this, but got caught in a Cloudflare.

To summarize, the inefficiency of IC engines is inherent to any vehicle, I think. Electrics move the inefficient heat-engine portion to generators, which can of course be run at their efficiency optimum. Almost all electric power is made by heat engines. Wind and hydro uses natural heat engines (removing Carnot efficiency concerns), solar-thermal the more familiar artificial ones. Only photovoltaic doesn't use a heat engine anywhere.

Fuel cells fascinate me, but they too are only as efficient as their electrochemistry. With H2/O2 this can be as high as 83%, but then there are other losses, like polarization loss under load, that kick in. The real trouble with fuel cells is that they seem to be technically difficult: expensive to make, not yet available in a reliable durable unit, and fuel-inflexible. But for the rural uses I won't exclude, they are probably a good bet for the future.

I would be satisfied with an electric car that goes 80mph. But I see current electrics as specialty vehicles for urbanites, great for light shopping and the commute, if it isn't over a "bedroom community" distance. As a non-urbanite, what I require of a car is that it can carry four people my size (most cars will not, unless you spec cruiserweight sedans, or worse, those heavy nouveau minivans called "crossovers") with their luggage and other spoils. And since the recharge/refuel evolution for an electric is not fast or easily found en route, I would require range, San Jose to Reno and return at max GVWR. There are hydrocarbon-fueled choices that'll do this, and should it be needed, refueling them is easy and quick.

That doesn't mean that electrics won't be as easy and universal to recharge one day. (I take your point about the model T.) But for now, they don't make an electric to entice me. If I lived in a metro area with subsidies for charging and parking an electric, I could be enticed. cn

As you seem to have said, it is better not to have to make the most inefficient portion of your system mobile. If we have an efficient motor then the relative difference in energy density is not as stark as it seems.

I won't purchase a fully electric vehicle until the cost goes down - oh and that car I drove it turns out was a test bed and not a production model.

 

[cannabineer]

As you seem to have said, it is better not to have to make the most inefficient portion of your system mobile. If we have an efficient motor then the relative difference in energy density is not as stark as it seems.

I won't purchase a fully electric vehicle until the cost goes down - oh and that car I drove it turns out was a test bed and not a production model.

Almost agreed but for a technical quibble. If the efficient energy supply device (be it storage of conversion) is heavy enough to be a major part of the vehicle's weight, a lighter, less efficient tank&motor assembly may be competitive overall. Of course this assumes similar pricing per "fuel-mile" for different power types.

However it really isn't about that. If availability of affordable liquid fuel goes away, we'll need these other technologies. Or perhaps we'll develop a completely-remodeled transportation paradigm, esp. if robotics are pushed into advancement. I can see future generations looking back on our fascination with discretionary travel in personal vehicles (beyond bicycles, perhaps) and think us to have been spoiled rotten. cn