Impossible! The deficit is falling as well as unemployment Obama wrecking economy

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
my grandparents owned a restaurant for decades............they took every piece of silver out that register gold notes silver notes oragami swans...........those stupid 1976 quarters and santa claus dollars

now u know 2
My grandparents saved every gold and silver coin they ever came into contact with. My Grandpa was the one who taught me to save those coins and so I did. They are dead now, but they had $Millions in Silver and gold when they retired.

I was just talking to a former colleague of mine whose father has been saving silver coins since 1950.

I save nickels and pre '82 pennies. Some day they will be worth far far more than their face value. Nickels already have 7 cents worth of metal and pre 82 pennies are worth 2 cents in metal.

Buy Gold, buy Silver, they will never decrease in value to zero, not like the inevitable demise of the dollar and its future date with zero value.

If inflation is such a great deal, why isn't Argentina the most powerful country in the world? They have such a real problem with inflation that the poor get poorer while the rich get richer. Ooops, does that correlate to every country that inflates like they do? Yes, yes it does.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Please show me where precious metals had huge fluctuations in value in the absence of a fiat reserve currency.
He can't since it only waivered by 3 pennies over a span of 200 years.

If anything is shown it will coincide with the 1st and second banks of the US existing here.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
A sucky low paying job is better than no job. low pay better than no pay.
If you have any skills, a good job shouldn't be hard to find. Come to North Dakota, If you want to make money, Wal-mart starts at 14 an hr.
I bet that $14 an hour comes in handy when you need to pay the $2,000 a month rent and purchase food at outrageous prices.

Maybe a man camp is in your future?

What is there to do in North Dakota anyway? That has to be one of the largest shithole states to ever exist.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
I know if you go to the South East it is not at all uncommon to see a 100 year old home...they are in all shapes and sizes just as they are today....I think the "roaring 20's" were a result of credit flow from the newly formed fed.....and the depression a result of that credit withdrawal...no doubt the depression inhibited the opportunity to save...my assertion is simply the debt to "income" ratio was lower then, by then I mean anytime before now, in general, of course the great depression and many other things caused anomalies. The real goods Dr Kynes spoke of, houses, cars, food were cheaper compared to wages earned, as a whole, then they are now...which allowed more financial freedom....some saved and became debt free....some used the extra scratch to dig themselves deeper...same as it ever was imo.....interestingly I think Whole Life Policies survived the Great Depression just fine....no flamers, I know that is paper.

I'll be the first to step into the pre-1913 line boss you talk about how rough it was but some of us have already had it rough even with the existence of the great Standard of Living Increasing and Wealth Generating Machine that is The Fed to pull me up and help me out......., hell I am less than "middle class" right now. The opportunity to keep 100% of what I earn??????? Where that time machine at?
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
It's intersting to see how the two sides are arguing about purchasing power 1913 v 2013. I also see how some interesting points (e.g. a clerical worker in 1913 could raise a family and save to buy a house) are ignored as inconvenient.
I didn't mean to ignore it, but the claim is obviously false. The home ownership rate in 1913 was very low; indeed, the creation of the Federal Reserve System is what enabled many people to buy homes at all (when they previously could not get a loan from anyone else). Kynes doesn't want to tell you this as he's recounting his fanciful vision of life in 1913.

This isn't a perfect example either, but let's compare something that was available and valuable then as now: arable land. (It's imperfect because much arable land has been consumed by builders of residential and commercial properties) (highlighting inter alia that there are more noses per acre now ... increased demand for a fixed supply, barring the occasional tectonic rezoning).
In 1913, the median acre in the Southwest went for ~130.
In 2013, California farmland averaged from a low of $15000 per acre (for Fresno table grape land) to $300000 (Sonoma wine acreage). This is apples-to-apples, even though it'll be skewed by the imponderables, the ones that make standard of living then vs. now so difficult to interpret. That sort of sociology makes the climate science models look like bankers' bookkeeping. All jmo. cn
I don't think California is a good example for you to use, since it's one of the most expensive places to live in the country now versus being a backwater in the past. There's still plenty of cheap land to be had all over this country. Average land prices would show a much smaller effect. People who are priced out of California shouldn't live there (and indeed, they're going in droves to other states).
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
And around and around you go...You are focusing on the spot price of the coin back in the day, which is irrelevant. Spot price today is relevant because it measures devaluation of a dollar.
I think I just misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were trying to say that the silver dime always bought the same goods until they were pulled out of circulation. Basically, I thought you were arguing that the purchasing power of the silver coins wasn't decreasing from 1913 to the 1960s.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
It's intersting to see how the two sides are arguing about purchasing power 1913 v 2013. I also see how some interesting points (e.g. a clerical worker in 1913 could raise a family and save to buy a house) are ignored as inconvenient.

It's obvious that a direct comparison of purchasing power across the century is difficult. The portion of income that went to electronics cannot have been significant a century ago. So arguing about "did they have a TV, refrigerator" etc. back then is specious imo.

This isn't a perfect example either, but let's compare something that was available and valuable then as now: arable land. (It's imperfect because much arable land has been consumed by builders of residential and commercial properties) (highlighting inter alia that there are more noses per acre now ... increased demand for a fixed supply, barring the occasional tectonic rezoning).
In 1913, the median acre in the Southwest went for ~130.
In 2013, California farmland averaged from a low of $15000 per acre (for Fresno table grape land) to $300000 (Sonoma wine acreage). This is apples-to-apples, even though it'll be skewed by the imponderables, the ones that make standard of living then vs. now so difficult to interpret. That sort of sociology makes the climate science models look like bankers' bookkeeping. All jmo. cn
What a great line! My compliments.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
I didn't mean to ignore it, but the claim is obviously false. The home ownership rate in 1913 was very low; indeed, the creation of the Federal Reserve System is what enabled many people to buy homes at all (when they previously could not get a loan from anyone else). Kynes doesn't want to tell you this as he's recounting his fanciful vision of life in 1913.



.
Final thought (for couple days anyhow I'm going fishing) many ppl owned homes and land before they were able to get "loans" from the Fed. The Fed has existed in other forms before 1913. The central planners have done this many times you are just stuck on the relative here and now. Ben Bernanke has openly admitted that inflation is a hidden tax. The fed and its friends are not subject to inflation like me and you as they have the benefit of using newly created "money" before the market (us) knows its there. They buy their goods and services, then stick you with the bill, indirectly, then you sing their praises....at least we'll make great pets eh?

It's all good naw the dime never loses purchasing power below 10 cents....but a silver 10 cent piece, unlike a present dime, has the privilege of being inflation proof.....meaning it will give who holds it, the power to not be bothered or affected by runaway government spending......which means runaway government.....indeed the word "support", in legalese, literally means to give money..... which is why The Fed convinced The Congress to take them out of circulation.....the plan is to make us beg.

Seriously thanks for the convo made me think a lot, at least we agree taxes kill jobs.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Iirc ... back then, houses were primarily for rural dwellers. Those were larger than 1000 sq ft because they contained usually the extended family as well as a good deal of the hardware needed to do farm/ranch chores that are foreign to most of us today. Like putting up turnips.

The rest of us tended to live in apartments (rowhouses for the better-off). Single-family homes, suburbs etc. were introduced to the American psyche after World War 2.

I don't know much about savings habits in the Teens. This preceded the stock trading mania of the Twenties, which briefly changed attitudes toward money before the Thirties forcibly undid that ... and I'd be curious to have your thoughts on that. cn
Your housing comments reminded me of a vital fact that hasn't been considered in these income comparisons: people in 1913 worked substantially more hours for their pay. I don't remember the numbers from another thread, but I think it was an extra 10 hours a week, so several hundred hours per year. The value of leisure time can't be quantified very easily, but if someone works fewer hours for more pay, they're obviously better off. Additionally, working conditions were horrendous in 1913. I dare assert that the work was much harder and much more dangerous than comparable work today (how many people died in the Triangle fire? and how miserable was it to work there in the first place?).

Another thought as well: a lot of women and children were employed, so there actually were lots of 2+ wage earner families. I think the stat I found earlier was that 25% of women were employed (versus 80% today), and child labor was substantial as well. These families weren't saving for houses--they were often struggling to survive. Obviously not all of them were struggling and many people were certainly saving, but the situation in 1913 was far worse than our Austrian friends are trying to paint.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
The Grace Commission: 100% of income taxes collected go to pay the interest on the debt.
Profits? What profits? I never got my share.
Interest paid to the Federal Reserve? I can tell you it hasn't been very much historically. Since the Fed went on its trillion plus spending spree, they've been returning quite substantial sums to the treasury: $88.9 billion in 2012. The Federal Reserve has no profits. They're the federal government's profits.

LOL. COLAs do not keep up with REAL inflation.
MOST, meaning "fuck those that don't participate wholeheartedly in the fraud"... democracy in action. More of that famous progressive​ compassion.
What's wrong with the inflation numbers? Be specific.

Inflation negatively impacts everyone.
A monetary system based on value hurts nobody.
Please show me where precious metals had huge fluctuations in value in the absence of a fiat reserve currency.
How big does a fluctuation have to be to be "huge"? Because I can certainly show you some that are pre-fiat dollar.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Like energy costs? Tell the Fed.
You realize you're just repeating a myth, right? The government's headline CPI number includes everything--including food and energy prices. This headline CPI is used to calculate cost of living adjustments.

You're referring to core CPI, which isn't used to calculate anything. The Fed doesn't use core CPI in making policy either, so I'm not sure what you want me to tell them.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
If that were true, there would be no silver dimes, quarters, halves and dollars today.
If very few people saved them, it means there would no silver coins today? That's not even logical.

Tell me, how much silver coinage did the treasury remove from circulation? Do you know the answer?
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
My grandparents saved every gold and silver coin they ever came into contact with. My Grandpa was the one who taught me to save those coins and so I did. They are dead now, but they had $Millions in Silver and gold when they retired.

I was just talking to a former colleague of mine whose father has been saving silver coins since 1950.

I save nickels and pre '82 pennies. Some day they will be worth far far more than their face value. Nickels already have 7 cents worth of metal and pre 82 pennies are worth 2 cents in metal.

Buy Gold, buy Silver, they will never decrease in value to zero, not like the inevitable demise of the dollar and its future date with zero value.

If inflation is such a great deal, why isn't Argentina the most powerful country in the world? They have such a real problem with inflation that the poor get poorer while the rich get richer. Ooops, does that correlate to every country that inflates like they do? Yes, yes it does.
I'm noticing a pattern in these anecdotal accounts: the Austrians seem to have family members who were coin hoarders. I don't think this is coincidence, but it should cast doubt. We don't want to transform 2 million people who were hoarding coins into 50 million people, or everyone.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
I know if you go to the South East it is not at all uncommon to see a 100 year old home...they are in all shapes and sizes just as they are today....I think the "roaring 20's" were a result of credit flow from the newly formed fed.....and the depression a result of that credit withdrawalno doubt the depression inhibited the opportunity to save...my assertion is simply the debt to "income" ratio was lower then, by then I mean anytime before now, in general, of course the great depression and many other things caused anomalies. The real goods Dr Kynes spoke of, houses, cars, food were cheaper compared to wages earned, as a whole, then they are now...which allowed more financial freedom....some saved and became debt free....some used the extra scratch to dig themselves deeper...same as it ever was imo.....interestingly I think Whole Life Policies survived the Great Depression just fine....no flamers, I know that is paper....
I take issue with comparing a 1913 house and car to 2013 equivalents. I already discussed the differences in a house, so how about the car. The 2013 car is far larger, far safer, far more comfortable, carries substantially more, has more mechanical power, etc. That a Ford sold in 1913 for less than a modern car really doesn't mean very much when you consider this.

The fact that goods are more expensive is irrelevant if wages keep pace with price increases. In a previous thread, Kynes tried to tell us that houses, cars, food, etc. were all substantially more expensive in 1960 than in 2013 (may not have been 1960, but close, and I think that year makes for a better comparison, since houses and cars were more equivalent to modern ones). We actually went through the items and determined that in real terms, the person in 2013 had far more purchasing power than the person in 1960, even though prices then were much lower.

I'll be the first to step into the pre-1913 line boss you talk about how rough it was but some of us have already had it rough even with the existence of the great Standard of Living Increasing and Wealth Generating Machine that is The Fed to pull me up and help me out......., hell I am less than "middle class" right now. The opportunity to keep 100% of what I earn??????? Where that time machine at?
If you think you have it bad compared to someone pre-1913, I think you're probably just ignorant of how much life sucked in 1913. It wasn't paradise, it was a dirty and smelly world where people had to work more hours for less pay, relatively, often in dangerous conditions.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Final thought (for couple days anyhow I'm going fishing) many ppl owned homes and land before they were able to get "loans" from the Fed. The Fed has existed in other forms before 1913.
I'm not disagreeing, to be clear. For most of American history, the majority of Americans were farmers, many of whom owned and probably built their own houses. And there certainly were mortgages before the Federal Reserve existed. But as I said, the home ownership rate was low in 1913, and the creation of the Federal Reserve System did in fact enable many to buy homes. I pointed this out only because Kynes specifically referred to people saving to buy homes, which the Fed enabled to a substantial degree.

The central planners have done this many times you are just stuck on the relative here and now. Ben Bernanke has openly admitted that inflation is a hidden tax. The fed and its friends are not subject to inflation like me and you as they have the benefit of using newly created "money" before the market (us) knows its there. They buy their goods and services, then stick you with the bill, indirectly, then you sing their praises....at least we'll make great pets eh?
What the devil are you talking about? The Fed buys goods and services with newly created "money" before we know it exists? Tell me, what are they buying...?

It's all good naw the dime never loses purchasing power below 10 cents....but a silver 10 cent piece, unlike a present dime, has the privilege of being inflation proof.....meaning it will give who holds it, the power to not be bothered or affected by runaway government spending......which means runaway government.....indeed the word "support", in legalese, literally means to give money..... which is why The Fed convinced The Congress to take them out of circulation.....the plan is to make us beg.

Seriously thanks for the convo made me think a lot, at least we agree taxes kill jobs.
See, this is why we ran around in that circle previously, because I can't figure out what you're trying to say. You called a silver dime "inflation proof." Except that it wasn't, which is the point I keep trying to make. Your 1913 silver dime bought less goods every single year from 1913 into the 1960s. How can you call something inflation proof if almost 50 years of unfettered inflation eats at the real purchasing power of the coin?

This leads me to another thought. If the silver coins had been losing real purchasing power for decades, why would you care about having silver in the coins at all? The inflation result is exactly the same, except when the price of silver exceeds monetary value. Once that happens, the only way to continue making useful silver coins for general circulation would be to increase the monetary value of them. Then you get the same decades of inflation up to the monetary value. They didn't dump silver as part of some inflation scheme. The simple reality is that non-money demand for silver skyrocketed at the same time that demand for coins skyrocketed. Silver, which had long been used pretty much exclusively to make coins, suddenly had tons of other non-coin uses.

That's what made the price increase: supply and demand. Silver prices today have nothing to do with being a store of value or precious metal--very little silver is actually used for those purposes. Most silver is consumed by non-money, non-investment industrial and household demand. Your silver windfall is based on the fact that useless silver suddenly became very useful, and thus more valuable. This wasn't something people in 1800, 1860, 1900, or 1920 would have considered.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
I'm noticing a pattern in these anecdotal accounts: the Austrians seem to have family members who were coin hoarders. I don't think this is coincidence, but it should cast doubt. We don't want to transform 2 million people who were hoarding coins into 50 million people, or everyone.
so, the great depression didnt teach that generation anything, particularly the ones financially ruined when their banks gambled with their "savings" in the casino of wall street.

those of us who's grandparents were CRUSHED by the financial gamblers you seem to adore, saved. they saved and saved and saved, and many no longer trusted your beloved fractional reserve system of the federal reserves promises, sio they kept their savings in whatever means they felt safe with.

my grandfather trusted LAND SILVER and GOLD and it served him well until the tax man came to the door after he died.

maybe you think my grandfather worked his whole life so the tax man could reclaim his rightful spoils, maybe you really do believe He Didnt Build That, or maybe you have hitched your wagon to the stone that is the fiat currency, and cannot bear the idea that your economics degree will become obsolete if the system finally changes, to become a more modern and robust currency than the gossamer promises of politicians can support

i dont really care which it is.

your support for the system which is destroying america's agriculture system, ruining rural folks and impoverishing entire communities to enrich the few fat cats in the Money Trust who make the rules to satisfy their own desires for more of everything is despicable.

teddy roosevelt is turning over in his grave
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I'm noticing a pattern in these anecdotal accounts: the Austrians seem to have family members who were coin hoarders. I don't think this is coincidence, but it should cast doubt. We don't want to transform 2 million people who were hoarding coins into 50 million people, or everyone.
Oh those wild wacky Austrians. cn

 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
I can't seem to break into this one. No worries; I'll desist. cn
nah, youre just not catching tokeprep's attention and rustling his jimmies.

his unshakable faith in the status quo requires a target he feels he can destroy with a simple wave of his hand. thats why he is focussing on silver and whether or not inflation is occuring he has the entire US treasury department in his corner and 100 years of bullshit to back up his claims, the fact that those 100 years' data counters his claims doesnt dissuade him from restating ben bernannke's position or wheeling out the festering corpse of alan greenspan to mumble a few lines of Jabberwocky and send the stock market into a freefall or a buying frenzy depending on how he uses the inflection on his Vorpal sword's "Snicker Snack"

tokeprep has engaged his full faith-based certainty that JP Morgan, the Rothschilds, the Warburgs and William Randolph Hearst have our best interests at heart and he MUST defend their honour!
 
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