Impossible! The deficit is falling as well as unemployment Obama wrecking economy

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
When I use CPI-based engines I get $8.60, and it's worth remembering that the CPI (as figured by BLS) gets diddled by those who have an interest in keeping its rise low. It's figured differently in 2013 than 1955.
You'll have to show me what you're using, because when you input 75 cents from 1955 into the BLS's own calculator, you get $6.51. http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm.

Obviously inflation is figured differently in 2013 than it was in 1955. Today we have cell phones and internet, which didn't exist in 1955; 2013 price calculations include the prices of those things.

If we look at better indicators of value, such as the price of a day in the hospital or an ounce of gold or a gallon of gas or a mortgage, the conversion is more like 15-40x.

My dad bought his first Benz in '69 for $5k. The equivalent today is $60k. Even allowing for the modern miracle of globalization, that's 12 to 1. cn
Why do you assert that those things are "better indicators of value"? Purchasing power is purchasing power. If the price of a house declined, increases in gas prices are only so meaningful.

This is why it makes no sense to assert that individual items should be the basis of understanding value. When you calculate in aggregate--reflecting everything--the result is different. The price of bread is greater, relatively, but what about milk and eggs?
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member

  • tokeprep said:
    And the risks of investing in gold or silver based on a few decades of price history? What if gold stays at $1,500 an ounce for 10 years? What if the price of silver plummets to $10? If your thesis is that neither event will occur and instead you'll see the same kinds of price increases that we've seen since the price was allowed to float, then by all means, invest your money in gold and silver. But you're still taking a risk, since we have no idea what the outcome will be.



    Again, if it stays 15hundie per oz for 10 years compared to what? Compared to the thing we are losing face with? The thing we keep raising the debt ceiling for? As long as the printing presses are rolling for a particular baseball card, that card is worth less and less.....same is true of your paper dollar. All the gold mined in the world per year will only fit in your living room despite your "needs".
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member




  • Again, if it stays 15hundie per oz for 10 years compared to what? Compared to the thing we are losing face with? The thing we keep raising the debt ceiling for? As long as the printing presses are rolling for a particular baseball card, that card is worth less and less.....same is true of your paper dollar. All the gold mined in the world per year will only fit in your living room despite your "needs".
That my $1 is worth less from year to year is irrelevant if increases in my wages beat the rate of inflation. Likewise, if I buy an index fund today with the S&P valued at 1500, I'll be much happier if it's at 2000 ten years from now versus buying gold for $1,500 an ounce if the price is $1,500 an ounce in ten years.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
What do you mean the face value was higher? The face value was exactly the the same. So long as the price of silver was below $1.38 an ounce, the silver coins in that era were worth more at face value than they were by metal content. Accordingly, face value is all that mattered, because if you traded your coins for silver, you would have had less purchasing power, meaning that no one did it.

The same amount of silver bought less and less and less. That's the indisputable fact that you haven't refuted (and that Kynes also failed to refute previously, when he attempted to argue that a given amount of silver had exactly the same purchasing power over thousands of years).



Except a minimum wage employee in 1955 didn't make more than the lowest minimum wage today. 75 cents in 1955 is equivalent to $6.51 today, and the minimum wage is above that.

You've been trying to prove your claim by arguing that a minimum wage employee in 1955 earned x ounces worth of silver, which would be worth $x today. On that basis, you would be correct. My whole point has been that employees weren't effectively paid x ounces of silver, they were paid $x--the face value of the coins. The metal value was totally irrelevant to workers in 1955 because it was below the face value of the coins.
The metal value is relevant because some people were smart enough to save their coins back then when they were 1:1.......just like people still save them today knowing they will not debase compared to the World Reserve Currecny ......the math works out the same though even if paper dollars were used in 1955 cause the paper was worth more then than it is now......it used to be worth more than the coin and now its waaaaaay less..............I'm just trying my best to put it child style so you can get it. The paper is changing, the coin is not.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
The metal value is relevant because some people were smart enough to save their coins back then when they were 1:1.......just like people still save them today knowing they will not debase compared to the World Reserve Currecny ......the math works out the same though even if paper dollars were used in 1955 cause the paper was worth more then than it is now......it used to be worth more than the coin and now its waaaaaay less..............I'm just trying my best to put it child style so you can get it. The paper is changing, the coin is not.
Bullshit. Very few people saved their coins from 1955, and if they did it wasn't because they expected the price of silver to be greater than the face value of the coins. Most Americans had no idea what the price of silver was, nor how much silver was in US coins.

As I've already demonstrated, the coin did change. The same amount of silver--over several decades--bought less and less and less. You haven't been able to refute that.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
For bread. What about everything else? Purchasing power must be calculated in aggregate. Milk? Eggs? Housing? You need to calculate everything to arrive at meaningful numbers.

Either way, where's that 90% plus devaluation? Not there.
Your example you name everything else go fetch brother I'm done. You are talking out your ass dude who even mentioned 90% plus devaluation of anything and what does it have to do with the price of eggs in China (who is hording silver as we speak)???? Only 90% I ever mentioned was 90% silver content in coins for math purposes bro you can try to move the cups a little faster cause every time you ask me which one the ball is under, and I tell you correctly, then you just start shuffling again....
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Cool I misunderstood, you are comparing silk and salt to fiat currency. Still don't see NaCl on the table though lol that's an ionic compound of two elements not an element itself but I digress. An overabundance of silver, gold, palladium ect...methinks there will never be arrrrrrrr..............:joint:
I tried to buy some salt, but they wouldn't let me charge it. cn
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Your example you name everything else go fetch brother I'm done. You are talking out your ass dude who even mentioned 90% plus devaluation of anything and what does it have to do with the price of eggs in China (who is hording silver as we speak)???? Only 90% I ever mentioned was 90% silver content in coins for math purposes bro you can try to move the cups a little faster cause every time you ask me which one the ball is under, and I tell you correctly, then you just start shuffling again....
You're talking out of your ass, otherwise you would be able able to meet me with fact. You have none.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Bullshit. Very few people saved their coins from 1955, and if they did it wasn't because they expected the price of silver to be greater than the face value of the coins. Most Americans had no idea what the price of silver was, nor how much silver was in US coins.

As I've already demonstrated, the coin did change. The same amount of silver--over several decades--bought less and less and less. You haven't been able to refute that.
I refuted all up down and sideways, here I'll do it again in the year 1913 when "The Creature from Jekyll Island" was created........

1913 barber dime......worth 10cents in 1913 even though silver spot was less.
1913 barber dime......worth $1.63 right now in scrap but only 10cents to the taxman lol bam.

The dime always bought 10cents worth of shit till the scrap value exceeded the face value, then it bought more unless you were mentally challenged and don't know that metal has value. bam
Here is the purchasing power of a Federal Reserve Note. bah bam
dollar-devaluation1.png
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
I refuted all up down and sideways, here I'll do it again in the year 1913 when "The Creature from Jekyll Island" was created........

1913 barber dime......worth 10cents in 1913 even though silver spot was less.
1913 barber dime......worth $1.63 right now in scrap but only 10cents to the taxman lol bam.

The dime always bought 10cents worth of shit till the scrap value exceeded the face value, then it bought more unless you were mentally challenged and don't know that metal has value. bam
Here is the purchasing power of a Federal Reserve Note. bah bam
View attachment 2659788
Your 1913 dime was worth 10 cents in 1913. Period.

Any modern valuation reflects the silver content of the coin, which was totally irrelevant in 1913, since it was less than the face value. Your 10 cents in 1913 bought 10 cents.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Your 1913 dime was worth 10 cents in 1913. Period.

Any modern valuation reflects the silver content of the coin, which was totally irrelevant in 1913, since it was less than the face value. Your 10 cents in 1913 bought 10 cents.
I literally just posted that the dime was worth 10 cents in 1913 then debunked your garbage about it losing any value whatsoever. bam
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
A US Silver dollar is not an ounce, and precious metal isn't measured in ounces. A US Silver dollar has 24.057 grams of pure 100% silver in it, or 26.95 Grams of Standard Silver.

This is the law.

Inflation calculators DO NOT WORK when inputting dates prior to 1971. Trying to compare the inflation of a 1913 dollar to a 2013 dollar is IRRELEVANT. They are not comparable since they are not the same thing. We don't compare apples to oranges do we?

Impossible to measure inflation when a Dollar is a dollar is a dollar and had a government set value all the way until 1971. PRICES were what moved according to the metal backed dollar, not the other way around. Trying to compare the 1913 dollar and saying it is not worth $1-1000$ now in inflation adjusted terms MEANS NOTHING!!

USA Defaulted on the constitutional dollar in 1971(1964) and came up with a brand new currency that they called, THE DOLLAR!

Guess what the price of gold was from 1920-1971? It was $35.

Does that mean we didn't have any inflation?

Gold was always valued in US Dollars right? I mean, dollars were never measured in gold were they? Naww that never happened.

********************************************************************************************************************************************
Technology didn't make life better, Fractional reserve lending did.

Never mind that the fractional lending started way way way back in the 15th century. It just took a few hundred years to get going.

The cotton gin, the steam engine, nuclear power, electricity did nothing to raise the human condition.

It was all the banks doing!!
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
You're right about the "grains" of the dollar I was just weighing one of my sunshine rounds and came up with a troy oz lol
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
I literally just posted that the dime was worth 10 cents in 1913 then debunked your garbage about it losing any value whatsoever. bam
You did no such thing. You described what the silver content in a 1913 dime is worth today, not what that dime bought in 1913, 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950, or 1960. Because none of those dates would have supported your proposition--they all would have shown your silver dime losing value.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
A US Silver dollar is not an ounce, and precious metal isn't measured in ounces. A US Silver dollar has 24.057 grams of pure 100% silver in it, or 26.95 Grams of Standard Silver.

This is the law.

Inflation calculators DO NOT WORK when inputting dates prior to 1971. Trying to compare the inflation of a 1913 dollar to a 2013 dollar is IRRELEVANT. They are not comparable since they are not the same thing. We don't compare apples to oranges do we?

Impossible to measure inflation when a Dollar is a dollar is a dollar and had a government set value all the way until 1971. PRICES were what moved according to the metal backed dollar, not the other way around. Trying to compare the 1913 dollar and saying it is not worth $1-1000$ now in inflation adjusted terms MEANS NOTHING!!

USA Defaulted on the constitutional dollar in 1971(1964) and came up with a brand new currency that they called, THE DOLLAR!

Guess what the price of gold was from 1920-1971? It was $35.

Does that mean we didn't have any inflation?

Gold was always valued in US Dollars right? I mean, dollars were never measured in gold were they? Naww that never happened.

********************************************************************************************************************************************
Technology didn't make life better, Fractional reserve lending did.

Never mind that the fractional lending started way way way back in the 15th century. It just took a few hundred years to get going.

The cotton gin, the steam engine, nuclear power, electricity did nothing to raise the human condition.

It was all the banks doing!!
Of all the facts in these pages of discussion, you chose not to take a single one on. Congratulations are in order for you cowardice.

Just meaningless assertions not backed up by any facts. Like that gold was worth $35 from 1920-1971--according to government decree, not the market. Thanks.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
You did no such thing. You described what the silver content in a 1913 dime is worth today, not what that dime bought in 1913, 1920, 1930, 1940, 1950, or 1960. Because none of those dates would have supported your proposition--they all would have shown your silver dime losing value.
See post #269 goofey.com
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
If that's true, why do people have substantially more purchasing power now than they did 100 years ago? Because wages increased alongside inflation. When you only look at half of the picture, you only see half of the picture.
actually i dont. it may seem like i do, but thats not so. expectations have changed since 1913, and while technology has made life easier even on the nickel, a guy with 2 years of college and the ability to take an engine apart and put it back together again, and experience as a farm hand would be much more comfortably situated than i currently am, as a machinist or an agricultural mechanic. but these days im just a redneck ina dead end job surrounded by other people scrabbling for an ever shrinking pie.

in 1913 a guy who worked as a shopkeeper and clerk (my current job) and grew his own vegetables to sell at the farmer's market in the city could expect to save money, buy a house, raise a family and secure his later years from his wages without the requirement that he risk all his coins in the wall street slot machine. your premise fails.


If you put $1,000 into stocks each year for 25 years and earn 10% a year on your investments, you'll have about $110,000 in 25 years. You don't need hundreds of thousands of dollars to make successful investments any more than you need that amount of money to make successful investments in metals.
so, if i put $1000 in stocks every year, for 25 years and let it ride, and the stocks i pick all maintain the DOW average then ill have $110k ? yeah, no i wont. 1000 riding for 25 years, 1000 riding for 24 years, 1000 riding for 23 years.... etc etc etc will not quadruple all 25k. that would require some pretty badass returns far beyond the 7% or so the dow averages over the long term, even if we completely ignore the risk and assume you can NEVER LOSE (which seems to be the requirement for all your claims of the awesomeness of investing in stocks.) further, why not just suggest i invent a time machine, travel back to 1525, and start a savings account with the bank of england and let compound interest turn me into a trillionaire?

but even if i assume your math is right, after 25 years of deflation what will 110k buy me? an economy car to sleep in as my retirement villa? i had a 401k before the last crash with a balance of around $10k now its a grand total of 230 bucks. i guess i should have managed it myself ehh? once i stopped pumping money into it, it deflated like a worn out marseilles whore at the end of her shift.


Margin calls? You only get a margin call if you buy on margin. Tell me, Kynes, how many people even have margin privileges on their investment accounts? Most people don't even know what margin is in the first place, and you have to fill out paperwork to get it. Solyndra? Individual people couldn't invest in that company--it was owned by venture capitalists.
yes even ameritrade lets you buy shit on margin, it was the big thing before the latest "Totally Not A Crash" correction. you might remember seeing the ads on TV when day trading was the next Cant Miss Opportunity Of The Decade
and yes, venture capitalists. who sold stocks in their venture capital firms to ordinary investors, so they could follow the number one rule of wall street investing, always gamble with somebody else's money. thats how venture capital firms like Bain capital, and all the rest work. they assemble a team of wall street wunderkind, hype them as the Cant Miss Opportunity of The Decade, and sell a piece of the action to any sucker who takes the bait. when the whole enterprise fails, the Wunderkind have already been paid their salaries bonuses and commissions, the executives in charge pull the cord on their golden parachutes and sail for a soft landing at another new firm, and the investors are left with their dicks in their hands with a 5% share in a giant pile of NOTHING, and often times less than nothing, just debts.

And the risks of investing in gold or silver based on a few decades of price history? What if gold stays at $1,500 an ounce for 10 years? What if the price of silver plummets to $10? If your thesis is that neither event will occur and instead you'll see the same kinds of price increases that we've seen since the price was allowed to float, then by all means, invest your money in gold and silver. But you're still taking a risk, since we have no idea what the outcome will be.
and you still assume that gold has a price, rather than a value.

you stare at the charts and believe that Gold is moving while the dollar remains constant, completely unaware that in fact gold is stationary, and the dollar is circling the drain.

gold has a 7000 year history of being desired, and being a currency of last resort.
FYI i dont invest in shit. i buy silver when its down, i convert my meager savings into municipal bonds with a sure return, and when i get my chance to buy some land ill sell off everything i have to to get my land debt free. if i could stuff cash in my matress i would do that, but the built in carefully designed anti-savings tax that YOUR KIND have deliberately engineered into the currency makes that impossible. you have turned MY money into YOUR toy and unless i let one of YOU weenies play with my money it shrivels up and disappeaars before my eyes. and you think thats cool.

when everything else has failed, gold endures. unlike my interest in arguing with you

why dont you go to an old folks home and tell them all how pleased you are with the fiat currency scheme which turned their carefully accumulated savings into a huge pile of shit. im sure they will appreciate your gleeful explanation of why this is GOOD for them in a macro-economic sense as much as i do. maybe they'll share their cat food with you.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Bullshit. Very few people saved their coins from 1955, and if they did it wasn't because they expected the price of silver to be greater than the face value of the coins. Most Americans had no idea what the price of silver was, nor how much silver was in US coins.

As I've already demonstrated, the coin did change. The same amount of silver--over several decades--bought less and less and less. You haven't been able to refute that.
double bullshit. when my grandfather died he had a sack of silver coins that weighed pretty close to 50 pounds, and it still didnt even scratch the taxes on the farm that we lost to the tax man because He Didnt Build That, even though my mother has got pictures of him actually building that.

he never let a silver coin pass his fingers, he had been hoarding them since the 40's, even though fdr said it was a crime. he sold a shitload of them to buy some land, and sold some more to buy materials for the house barn and fences that the government actually built, using what i assume was highly sophisticated robots designed to look exactly like my grandfather in the 60's, and he still saved them for the rest of his life and it served him well.

if only he had not wasted his life doing what looked to the uneducated like building a farm, and instead had simply trusted in wall street's magical powers he would have had no property to tax, so the inheritance tax would have merely consumed his entire estate without the bother of all that farming, and the foolish attempts to save the farm from the tax man's righteous clutches.

yeah. that would have been so much better.

money monkeys make rules to profit money monkeys, and you are clearly a money monkey thus the rules are quite satisfactory for you.

the rest of us dont dream of a lifetime spent pouring over dusty ledgers trying to turn nickels into dimes on paper.

some of us are only happy when we actually build something with our hands, something which might have no value to a paper pusher a bureaucrat or an accountant. unfortunately the bureaucrats are enthroned, and they are making the rules. this does not mean the rest of us have to like it, and does NOT mean we are all wrong and should just shut the fuck up and let the accountants sodomize us with their ball point pens and rubber stamps.

if by some miracle the worm turns and you accountants and economics weenies are put in your rightful place, doing your sums by the light of a single guttering candle, chained to a dreary basement desk, then the rest of us can finally enjoy the american dream as envisioned by the founders, and as experienced by those who lived before 1913.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
actually i dont. it may seem like i do, but thats not so. expectations have changed since 1913, and while technology has made life easier even on the nickel, a guy with 2 years of college and the ability to take an engine apart and put it back together again, and experience as a farm hand would be much more comfortably situated than i currently am, as a machinist or an agricultural mechanic. but these days im just a redneck ina dead end job surrounded by other people scrabbling for an ever shrinking pie.

in 1913 a guy who worked as a shopkeeper and clerk (my current job) and grew his own vegetables to sell at the farmer's market in the city could expect to save money, buy a house, raise a family and secure his later years from his wages without the requirement that he risk all his coins in the wall street slot machine. your premise fails.
the
Except he couldn't. The purchasing power of those coins was declining every single year because the face value far exceeded the silver value of coins. See my last post. Oh, right, you didn't bother to address the fact that silver coins with identical silver content nonetheless had different purchasing power in the decades they were produced. Your premise fails.

so, if i put $1000 in stocks every year, for 25 years and let it ride, and the stocks i pick all maintain the DOW average then ill have $110k ? yeah, no i wont. 1000 riding for 25 years, 1000 riding for 24 years, 1000 riding for 23 years.... etc etc etc will not quadruple all 25k. that would require some pretty badass returns far beyond the 7% or so the dow averages over the long term, even if we completely ignore the risk and assume you can NEVER LOSE (which seems to be the requirement for all your claims of the awesomeness of investing in stocks.) further, why not just suggest i invent a time machine, travel back to 1525, and start a savings account with the bank of england and let compound interest turn me into a trillionaire?

but even if i assume your math is right, after 25 years of deflation what will 110k buy me? an economy car to sleep in as my retirement villa? i had a 401k before the last crash with a balance of around $10k now its a grand total of 230 bucks. i guess i should have managed it myself ehh? once i stopped pumping money into it, it deflated like a worn out marseilles whore at the end of her shift.
7% isn't the average historical return on the Dow and you know it. Of course, I think most investors would pick the S&P, so I'm not sure why we're talking about the Dow anyway.

But yes, work out the math yourself. $1,000 a year for 25 years at a 10% annual return yields more than $100,000 from a $25,000 investment. You can only deny it if you didn't bother to calculate the result, which I did with an Excel spreadsheet. Worried about inflation? Your return is going to beat it (substantially), so once again, you have no case to make here. Your investment in stocks is just as risky as your investment in silver.

yes even ameritrade lets you buy shit on margin, it was the big thing before the latest "Totally Not A Crash" correction. you might remember seeing the ads on TV when day trading was the next Cant Miss Opportunity Of The Decade
Every brokerage lets you buy on margin because it's a profitable business whether you're making or losing money. That's not what I asked you. I asked you how many people have margin privileges. Evidently you have no answer because you're referring to Ameritrade's marketing instead of quoting me some statistic.

and yes, venture capitalists. who sold stocks in their venture capital firms to ordinary investors, so they could follow the number one rule of wall street investing, always gamble with somebody else's money. thats how venture capital firms like Bain capital, and all the rest work. they assemble a team of wall street wunderkind, hype them as the Cant Miss Opportunity of The Decade, and sell a piece of the action to any sucker who takes the bait. when the whole enterprise fails, the Wunderkind have already been paid their salaries bonuses and commissions, the executives in charge pull the cord on their golden parachutes and sail for a soft landing at another new firm, and the investors are left with their dicks in their hands with a 5% share in a giant pile of NOTHING, and often times less than nothing, just debts.
Sold their stocks in their venture capital firms to ordinary investors? Excuse me? Such as? Give me some examples. Thanks.

Bain Capital isn't public and doesn't sell shares to ordinary investors. Try again.

and you still assume that gold has a price, rather than a value.

you stare at the charts and believe that Gold is moving while the dollar remains constant, completely unaware that in fact gold is stationary, and the dollar is circling the drain.
Gold isn't stationary. If you reflect changes in purchasing power, gold has far exceeded them. Why? Because India, China, and every other developing country suddenly had substantial amounts of money to buy gold with. Supply and demand. There is no stationary intrinsic value of gold useful as a monetary standard.

gold has a 7000 year history of being desired, and being a currency of last resort.
FYI i dont invest in shit. i buy silver when its down, i convert my meager savings into municipal bonds with a sure return, and when i get my chance to buy some land ill sell off everything i have to to get my land debt free. if i could stuff cash in my matress i would do that, but the built in carefully designed anti-savings tax that YOUR KIND have deliberately engineered into the currency makes that impossible. you have turned MY money into YOUR toy and unless i let one of YOU weenies play with my money it shrivels up and disappeaars before my eyes. and you think thats cool.
You buy municipal bonds!? You fool! You know it's just a piece of paper, right? You know the asset you built just collects worthless pieces of paper, right?
 
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