Advanced Lighting Spectrums for T5 Floro and LED

Fonzarelli

Active Member
^^^^^^^^Also, take a close look at the new growth between the non-twisty and twisty photos. See how on the non-twisty leaf veins are much further apart? And on the twisty leaf photo the leaf veins are much closer together? I believe this is due to excess blue light. In other tests I've done with blue heavy spectrums, this same thing would happen regardless of the presence of 630nm or 660nm light.

I believe this is due to how close the lights are to the canopy. The further away the lights are, the more blue heavy the spectrum of light will be that hits the leaves. The closer the fixture is, the more red light gets absorbed by the leaves and the ratio of red to blue goes up. When there is more red than the plants can handle is where bleaching occurs.

That's why when people were having trouble with bleaching, when they moved the fixtures higher off the canopy the bleaching would go away. It's do to an over abundance of red light, but not blue light.

When an over abundance of blue light is present, you get this "close-veined" type of growth that eventually becomes "in-grown" and the leaves start to twist.

I read about this same effect from a cucumber LED experiment that oxford university did a few years back. They say the same thing about blue light. At 15% blue light, optimal growth was noted. As the % reached up to 50% blue light to red light, strange twisty growth started to appear.

This has gotta be the answer we seek. I still think deeper red absorbs more efficiently, but 630nm red will balance out the red:blue ratio a lot easier since it is overall brighter. I still believe the optimal growth would be achieved by just doubling the 660nm as opposed to switching it out with 630nm in order to increase the red:blue ratio.

As far as the leaf veins go, through all of my 20 years of growing, I have noticed that when the leaf veins are further apart it means that growth is accelerating and the photosynthesis process is at optimal. I have always noted this type of vein growth under HPS lighting which would make sense because they are so red heavy. Under normal 6500k T5 HO lamps, I do not see this "wide-veined" type of leaf growth and overall growth is much slower and spread apart(spindly).

The addition of deep red has made the growth accelerate and in turn making stronger healthier stems, and tighter inter-nodes. The addition of blue light only facilitates the addition of red light. They literally go hand in hand, but without the addition of balanced red light, photosynthesis cannot achieve maximum potential.
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
The more I play with this concept, the more I am realizing that exact numbers have nothing to do with it. For instance, our argument is over which is better, 630nm or 660nm. These are 2 exact numbers and exact numbers do not exist in nature when it comes to light waves in sunshine. I would rather focus on the overall "range" of spectrum. For example, here is an excerpt that talks about this same idea.

Here is what they have to say about photosynthesis:

In relation to Photosynthesis

It would seem, in my opinion, that given the various pigments, and the areas they are most abundant, that Chlorophyll a & b, and to a lesser extent, the various carotenoids (such as carotene and xanthophyll) would be the most productive in the absoprtion of light for photosynthesis. When applying this to cultivation and artificial lights, it would seem logical to choose lights that peak in the 430-470nm and 640-680nm range, to allow the 2 main chlorophyll types to gather the most energy. Light in the blue spectrum may also be a little stronger to allow the carotenes and xanthophylls to absorb more light as well.

http://www.kadasgarden.com/Cpigments.html


This is why I believe 660nm to be the better choice over the 2 when choosing only 1 wavelength for a grow light. Because it is right in the middle of the spectrum of cA, cB, therefor allowing both processes to take advantage equally. This only applies, however, to a light setup that only utilizes 1 wavelength. I would still agree that the best option would be to have both 630nm and 680nm, but in different proportions. Because 630nm light is so much "brighter" you don't need as much. For instance, the Florasun lamp has 630nm and 660nm in a ratio of 1:3. Therefore, for every one part 630nm wave, you would have three parts 680nm wave. Since 680nm doesn't exist in the LED world yet, we are only left with one option to choose for a single red spectrum light which is 660nm that gets the best of both parts A and B of photosynthesis.

Obviously 630nm will work by itself as well. Take the HPS for example which peaks at around 610nm for the red wavelength. Plants grow quite well under HPS but also exhibit some crazy morphological changes as we all know. Plants have the ability to adapt to spectrum changes. I just want to give the plants what they want, and not what they have to adapt to.

Here is another excerpt that I really enjoyed reading due to the fact they do not use exact numbers to explain the photosynthesis and other plant processes. It also talks about what the middle spectrum(green) does which we are still trying to figure out. We talk of it as a "catalyst" when really the green light acts as a protector when a high amount of intense light is present. Please read this excerpt, it is quite interesting. This explains why some people were exhibiting "bleaching" under their red/blue LED grow lights that do not have any of the green spectrum present in the fixture.

Photosynthetic Light Absorption


Photosynthetic light absorption involves plants’ use of pigments to facilitate the conversion of light energy into chemical energy.

Photosynthesis occurs in green plants, algae, and certain types of bacteria. There is considerable variation among the types of pigments found in these different groups of organisms, but the basic mechanisms by which they absorb light are similar. Photosynthetic pigments are always attached to membranes within a cell.

In algae and higher plants, the photosynthetic pigments are located in the chloroplast, where photosynthesis takes place. The pigment molecules are not dispersed randomly within the chloroplast but are arrayed on the surface of the thylakoid membranes.

The chloroplasts become oriented in such away as to present a large surface area to the sun or other light source, thereby maximizing the ability of the pigments to absorb light energy. In photosynthetic bacteria, the light-absorbing pigments are not organized in chloroplasts but are located on membranes that are dispersed throughout the cell.

Chlorophylls and Carotenoids

The two primary types of pigments utilized by most photosynthetic organisms are the green chlorophylls and the yellow to orange carotenoids.

There are several forms of chlorophyll that differ fromone another in small details of their molecular structures. The forms are designated chlorophyll a, b, c, and so on. Chlorophyll a is found in all plants and algae, while the other forms are dispersed among various taxonomic groups.

The chlorophyll molecule consists of two parts: an elaborate ring structure that actually absorbs the light, and a long tail-like section that anchors the molecule in the membrane. Photosynthetic bacteria contain similar pigments called bacteriochlorophyll a and b.

Carotenoids, the othermajor group of photosynthetic pigments, also occur in various forms and are found in all types of photosynthetic plants, algae, and bacteria. The xanthophylls, which are oxygenated carotenoids, form another widespread and diverse subgroup of pigments.

Carotenoid molecules have elongated structures and, like the chlorophylls, are embedded in the photosynthetic membranes. It is a popular misconception that the change in leaf color that takes place in the fall is the result of the formation of new yellow or orange carotenoid pigments.

Actually, the carotenoids are present all the time but are masked by the presence of the green chlorophyll. In fall, the chlorophyll begins to decompose more rapidly than the carotenoids, whose yellow colors are then exposed.

Chlorophyll a, or something very similar to it, occurs almost universally in photosynthetic organisms, from bacteria to higher plants, because it is an essential component of photosynthetic reaction centers. All of the other chlorophylls and carotenoids involved in light absorption are referred to as accessory pigments.

Another kind of accessory pigment found in some groups of algae and photosynthetic bacteria are the phycobili proteins, which may impart a red or blue color to the cells in which they occur. These molecules consist of a light-absorbing portion bound to a protein.

In fact, all types of pigment molecules seem to be bound to proteins within the photosynthetic membranes. These pigment-protein associations are sometimes referred to as light-harvesting complexes, a term that accurately describes their function.

Properties of Light

To understand the functioning of photosynthetic pigments, it is necessary to consider first the physical nature of light.

Visible light is only a small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, which ranges from very short wavelength radiation, such as X rays, to extremely long wavelength radiation, such as radio waves. The visible portion of the spectrum is intermediate in wave length and ranges from blue (at the short end) to red (at the long end).

Sunlight contains a mixture of all the visible wavelengths, which humans perceive as white light. The energy of light is inversely proportional to its wavelength; blue light has more energy than an equivalent amount of red light.

Lightmay be thought of as consisting of either waves or particles. For purposes of studying light absorption by pigments, it is easier to think of light as particles, referred to as photons or quanta.

When a photon is absorbed by a pigment molecule, the photon’s energy is transferred to one of the electrons of the pigment. The electron is thus said to enter an excited state and contains the energy originally associated with the photon of light.

A specific kind of pigment is not capable of absorbing all the photons it encounters. Only photons of certain energy (and therefore wavelength) can be absorbed by each pigment.

For example, chlorophyll primarily absorbs light in the blue and red wave lengths but not in the green portion of the spectrum. Consequently, the green light to which chlorophyll is exposed is either transmitted through it or reflected from it, with the result being that the pigment appears green.

The color of the pigment results from the wavelengths of light that are not absorbed. Carotenoids do not absorb light in the yellow to orange portion of the spectrum and, therefore, are seen as being that color.

The process of light absorption begins when a photon of appropriate energy strikes a chlorophyll or carotenoid molecule located on a thylakoid or other photosynthetic membrane, thus causing an electron in the pigment to be raised to an excited state.

If two pigment molecules are situated adjacent to each other in exactly the right orientation and are separated by a very small distance, it is possible for the energy of excitation to be transferred from one molecule to the next.

This transfer process (referred to as Forster resonance) enables the excitation energy tomigrate throughout the array of pigment molecules that are attached to the photosynthetic membrane.

In addition to pigment molecules, the membranes also contain a smaller number of special structures called reaction centers, which consist of special chlorophyll and protein molecules arranged in a very specific fashion.

The excitation energy migrating throughout the pigment array will eventually find its way to one of the reaction centers, and there it is utilized to form new energy-containing molecules.

All of this occurs with a large number of photons and pigment molecules simultaneously. The array of pigment molecules feeding excitation energy into the reaction centers contains both chlorophylls and carotenoids and is sometimes referred to as an antenna, to indicate its role in light absorption.

This overall process constitutes the light reactions of photosynthesis. The energy-containing molecules thus formed will then be used in the Calvin cycle to convert carbon dioxide into carbohydrates: Light energy has been converted into chemical energy.

Pigment Functions

Chlorophyll a, as well as the other chlorophylls, makes up a major portion of the antenna pigments that absorb light energy and transfer it to the reaction centers. The carotenoids, which are also part of the antenna, seem to contribute in two ways to the effectiveness of the light absorption process.

First, they increase the range of wavelengths that can be absorbed. Chlorophyll absorbs mainly in the blue and red portions of the spectrum but is not effective at absorbing other wavelengths.

Carotenoids are able to absorb some of the green light that would be unusable if chlorophyll were the only pigment present, so having a combination of different pigments makes the organism more effective at using the various wavelengths that occur in sunlight. A second function of the carotenoids has to do with their ability to protect chlorophyll from damage by intense light.

Under conditions of high light intensity, chlorophyll has a tendency to decompose through a process called photooxidation. The presence of carotenoids prevents this decomposition fromoccurring and enables the chlorophyll to continue to function effectively at light intensities that would otherwise cause damage.

Although virtually all photosynthetic organisms utilize some form of chlorophyll in light absorption, an exception is found in the halobacteria.

These bacteria live in conditions of very high salt concentration, such as the Dead Sea or the Great Salt Lake. In these bacteria is found a purple membrane containing molecules of a pigment called bacteriorhodopsin which, remarkably, is very similar to rhodopsin, the pigment found in the visual systems of higher animals.

When bacteriorhodopsin molecules absorb light, they cause a hydrogen ion (a proton of H+) to be ejected across the cell membrane, and this leads to the formation of energy-containing molecules that the bacterium can utilize for its various metabolic requirements. Research with these unique photosynthetic organisms may also lead to a better understanding of the molecular basis and evolution of vision in animals.

http://lifeofplant.blogspot.com/2011/03/photosynthetic-light-absorption.html
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Responding to your question from post #21. "What is my reasoning?" Pragmatism. I have told you before to stare/meditate on the PAR SDGraph. Yes 660 is covered but not near as much as 600-630.

Go back and re-read my post (# 14). I learned that info which I copied there from another site. He has checked in to my journal here (RIU) as well, but under a different UN- The Lurker. Seems to know his stuff

Wish he would drop by more often. Haven't heard from him since early on in my journal. I PMd him, but got no response. Be happy to post his whole explanation if you want. It is a bit lengthy but no more than you tend to be. It is complete with charts that took me a good while to grasp. So let me know
. I'm just gonna post it as I think you will quantum leap once you go through it. It took me awhile, but I don't have the background you do. I am more of an intuitive

I do not think he minds me posting it. I did suggest he do an e-book. Keep in mind he is responding to someone, talking about LEDs, but the spectrums are the same no matter what light source one chooses.

Es verdad, amigo. And the best, most economical sources of IR for most growers are still simple, good ol' halogen lights, and Reptisun fluoros for UV-B, at present. (the dangers - and potential litigious nightmare - of incorporating expensive UV-B LEDs into a fixture notwithstanding)

Besides, without complete, independent control of the latter two (i.e. independent of the activity and photoperiod of the 'main' LED fixture), the grower's control over their desired photomorphological changes becomes rather tenuous at best.

If one is going to go that route, then both UV- and high-intensity,
blue-mediated light damage (since that is what it is) should be adjustable - both in intensity, as well as photoperiodicity and duration.

As the higher-energy end of the spectrum isn't really a 'finishing/maturing' as much as it is a degradation (i.e. blue and UV pass through clear trichomes just fine; it's only when they become cloudy that they show any significant absorption of that energy, and quickly turn from cloudy to amber - at which point one should watch 'em like a hawk to keep your product from degrading too soon and ruining the desired effect), it should always be incorporated judiciously at first, and in small doses - until the effect on that particular cut is well-established, after which it can then be predicted with a 'fair' level of accuracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaeton
The spectrum of light the plant uses efficiently changes with the intensity.
At low light levels red is used most then blue, just like the chlorophyl charts.
As the light gets brighter more blue is used, and more. The break point is reached about 50% of max leaf capacity then green starts coming on. As the intensity continues up red and blue remain steady but green use continues to grow until at maximum it is almost half of all the light energy being used.


This is one reason why, even with the rather shitty, lopsided spectrum produced by HPS, one can still get good results with them:


(Shown: Eye Hortilux HPS vs. Photosynthetic Absorption Spectra Curve)

I'm glad we've finally gotten some good studies on green light over the past several years, as has been
mentioned previously (link) by a few of us.

While 'every lumen (or rather, PPFD) is sacred', I'm of the camp that would prefer a higher level of (adjustable) full-intensity, multi-spectrum (i.e. 'white') light incorporated into the main fixture, for that very reason.

And with the recent increases in the efficiency of neutral whites, there's no reason why you can't get perfectly good results with just a two-channel, adjustable led fixture (neutral white, and red), supplementing with the aforementioned only as needed.

For reference, here are the LUXEON (Rebel) Neutral White and CREE (XP-E) Whites - relative spectral distribution:




This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 801x530.


Now, let's look at all of them superimposed over the PRC:



(note: neutral white I called 'normal white' here for some reason. Wonder what I was smokin' at the time...<whistles>)

As one can see, the CREE Neutral White (I call it 'Goldilocks', because it's almost 'just right'
) has a RSPD that still allows nearly ~25% of its total power in the blue range (and plants only really 'need' ~8-10%), and more that 1/3 of which (i.e. the area under the curve) is over ~580nm or so (which has a Photosynthetic RS of over 90%!) - which is much better than even your typical 'Enhanced HPS'.

(to be continued...)

Quote Quick Reply

[HR][/HR] 4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

03-10-2012
#66
sx646522
Member



Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: In Your Peripheral Vision
Posts: 168


(continued - had to break it up due to the post limitations on attachments. Ruined my smileys, too ;( )


Couple that with strong white light (green-response chlorophyll extending throughout and deep into leaf structures, with a net effect at or near that of the (mostly) surface-level blue and reds), which also takes care of most of the ~660nm+ you actually need for photomorphogenesis - and you can get by with 630nm reds just fine.

(i.e. 630nm red is ~95% of the PSR of 660nm, AND they currently still have ~20-30% greater radiometric efficiency - as well as being cheaper than the deep reds - so there's more 'bang for the buck'):


This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 801x474.


Something like that would probably meet the needs of ~95% of today's growers.

(And thus...the EVOLEDs. They just need to fix their c/v string imbalancing issues.)

And with the advent of
modular LED systems (link) - like this - putting 'em together yourself literally becomes a snap.

(Even with paying another ~$1 or so per led vs. wiring 'em yourself - which many folks would gladly trade their savings in time and aggravation for. Some people are just nervous around soldering irons... (though not me personally))

Their bins are pretty good, too - all things considered.

Though if you do 'em yourself, might want to source the heat sinks elsewhere (like Heatsink USA), and those Mean Well ELN-60-48D's can be had for around $20 or so (+ shipping) if you shop around.

Save ya around another ~$100 or so per 100w of usable lighting that way.

(You can build yourself a couple of 30 LED (so - 60 total) two-channel, 110w (max), fully adjustable (with four dimmer switches - two per light) 4" x 26" (i.e. 'light bar', like the EVOs) fixtures for a little over $500. Not bad - esp. considering that ~20w of those bins are the equivalent of ~35-40w of cheap Chinese crap - and that the savings on even ~120w at typical, California PG&E rates (~0.20/kWh - their rates max out at over $0.45/kWh on some plans!) over time would be:



You either pay on the front end or the back end, folks - I'd rather it be the front end.

(i.e. better, longer lasting, more efficient lights upfront vs. higher electric costs on crappy bins and failure-prone, insufficiently heatsinked emitters and drivers)

People have got to stop thinking of DIY as cheaper.

DIY = better, not cheaper.

(And at roughly the same (up front) cost, too - and definitely over the long run. For some of us, it's a 'no brainer'.)

---

It's only the 'crazy ones' (like us) who'd 'need to' (read: 'like playing around with cool stuff') - let's say - have a bunch of IR LEDs on a separate channel, throw 'em on after lights out to 'encourage' the Pr-->Pfr equilibrium during dark reversion back over to the left side of that equation, and shorten the dark cycle duration required for certain short-day plants as a result:





You know - crazy folks.


Cheers,

-SX

 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
^^^^^^^^Also, take a close look at the new growth between the non-twisty and twisty photos. See how on the non-twisty leaf veins are much further apart? And on the twisty leaf photo the leaf veins are much closer together? I believe this is due to excess blue light. In other tests I've done with blue heavy spectrums, this same thing would happen regardless of the presence of 630nm or 660nm light. I believe this is due to how close the lights are to the canopy. The further away the lights are, the more blue heavy the spectrum of light will be that hits the leaves. The closer the fixture is, the more red light gets absorbed by the leaves and the ratio of red to blue goes up. When there is more red than the plants can handle is where bleaching occurs. That's why when people were having trouble with bleaching, when they moved the fixtures higher off the canopy the bleaching would go away. It's do to an over abundance of red light, but not blue light. When an over abundance of blue light is present, you get this "close-veined" type of growth that eventually becomes "in-grown" and the leaves start to twist. I read about this same effect from a cucumber LED experiment that oxford university did a few years back. They say the same thing about blue light. At 15% blue light, optimal growth was noted. As the % reached up to 50% blue light to red light, strange twisty growth started to appear. This has gotta be the answer we seek. I still think deeper red absorbs more efficiently, but 630nm red will balance out the red:blue ratio a lot easier since it is overall brighter. I still believe the optimal growth would be achieved by just doubling the 660nm as opposed to switching it out with 630nm in order to increase the red:blue ratio.

As far as the leaf veins go, through all of my 20 years of growing, I have noticed that when the leaf veins are further apart it means that growth is accelerating and the photosynthesis process is at optimal. I have always noted this type of vein growth under HPS lighting which would make sense because they are so red heavy. Under normal 6500k T5 HO lamps, I do not see this "wide-veined" type of leaf growth and overall growth is much slower and spread apart(spindly). The addition of deep red has made the growth accelerate and in turn making stronger healthier stems, and tighter inter-nodes. The addition of blue light only facilitates the addition of red light. They literally go hand in hand, but without the addition of balanced red light, photosynthesis cannot achieve maximum potential.
Well your hypothesis remains to be validated, but I love your devotion/passion. As whack as people think I am, I certainly never micromanaged the way you do. Not that that's a bad thing. It's just more that I am happy to first get in the ball park. This is my first T5 grow, and by FAR the best buds I have ever grown. And no doubt with a little left on the table as I started out with DM nutes and longer feed intervals.

According the SXs info which I just posted here, mj doesn't need a whole lot of blue. From what I can see, Florosuns provide all the blue most plants need from veg - harvest (as well as all the other spectrums to provide a damn fine yield. However, I think I am benefiting from supplementing with 1/8 660s + 3 Red Suns + 2 Coral Waves . I only use my one ATI Special Blue Actinic during veg because I had already bought it
:wall:, but it could be valuable with Indicas. As mistakes go, it was inexpensive. Paid more for drinks on females, and got less back:shock:

My plants are my F 1 cross with Indica Male + Sat mother.
The plant I have taken all the pics of is clearly Sat dominant, but the other 2 which are Indica dom, in my hpa rig are under the same light. But since both of them combined don't equal 10% of Big Girl F 1, I cater to her. That said, now that I have cut hpa w/d cycle in half, ~ 20% of the fish bones now have root hairs AND the buds are growing again. I can't raise my fixture any higher above the canopy (it;s roughly 4") , but thankfully Big Girl F 1 spread out long branches after I snapped her main stalk some months back. Will post new pics of my hpa Friday. Too bad I don't have a macro lens to show the root hairs

 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
The more I play with this concept, the more I am realizing that exact numbers have nothing to do with it. For instance, our argument is over which is better, 630nm or 660nm. These are 2 exact numbers and exact numbers do not exist in nature when it comes to light waves in sunshine. I would rather focus on the overall "range" of spectrum. For example, here is an excerpt that talks about this same idea.

Here is what they have to say about photosynthesis:

In relation to Photosynthesis

It would seem, in my opinion, that given the various pigments, and the areas they are most abundant, that Chlorophyll a & b, and to a lesser extent, the various carotenoids (such as carotene and xanthophyll) would be the most productive in the absoprtion of light for photosynthesis. When applying this to cultivation and artificial lights, it would seem logical to choose lights that peak in the 430-470nm and 640-680nm range, to allow the 2 main chlorophyll types to gather the most energy. Light in the blue spectrum may also be a little stronger to allow the carotenes and xanthophylls to absorb more light as well.

http://www.kadasgarden.com/Cpigments.html


This is why I believe 660nm to be the better choice over the 2 when choosing only 1 wavelength for a grow light. Because it is right in the middle of the spectrum of cA, cB, therefor allowing both processes to take advantage equally. This only applies, however, to a light setup that only utilizes 1 wavelength. I would still agree that the best option would be to have both 630nm and 680nm, but in different proportions. Because 630nm light is so much "brighter" you don't need as much. For instance, the Florasun lamp has 630nm and 660nm in a ratio of 1:3. Therefore, for every one part 630nm wave, you would have three parts 680nm wave. Since 680nm doesn't exist in the LED world yet, we are only left with one option to choose for a single red spectrum light which is 660nm that gets the best of both parts A and B of photosynthesis.

Obviously 630nm will work by itself as well. Take the HPS for example which peaks at around 610nm for the red wavelength. Plants grow quite well under HPS but also exhibit some crazy morphological changes as we all know. Plants have the ability to adapt to spectrum changes. I just want to give the plants what they want, and not what they have to adapt to.

Here is another excerpt that I really enjoyed reading due to the fact they do not use exact numbers to explain the photosynthesis and other plant processes. It also talks about what the middle spectrum(green) does which we are still trying to figure out. We talk of it as a "catalyst" when really the green light acts as a protector when a high amount of intense light is present. Please read this excerpt, it is quite interesting. This explains why some people were exhibiting "bleaching" under their red/blue LED grow lights that do not have any of the green spectrum present in the fixture.

Photosynthetic Light Absorption


Photosynthetic light absorption involves plants&#8217; use of pigments to facilitate the conversion of light energy into chemical energy.

Photosynthesis occurs in green plants, algae, and certain types of bacteria. There is considerable variation among the types of pigments found in these different groups of organisms, but the basic mechanisms by which they absorb light are similar. Photosynthetic pigments are always attached to membranes within a cell.

In algae and higher plants, the photosynthetic pigments are located in the chloroplast, where photosynthesis takes place. The pigment molecules are not dispersed randomly within the chloroplast but are arrayed on the surface of the thylakoid membranes.

The chloroplasts become oriented in such away as to present a large surface area to the sun or other light source, thereby maximizing the ability of the pigments to absorb light energy. In photosynthetic bacteria, the light-absorbing pigments are not organized in chloroplasts but are located on membranes that are dispersed throughout the cell.

Chlorophylls and Carotenoids

The two primary types of pigments utilized by most photosynthetic organisms are the green chlorophylls and the yellow to orange carotenoids.

There are several forms of chlorophyll that differ fromone another in small details of their molecular structures. The forms are designated chlorophyll a, b, c, and so on. Chlorophyll a is found in all plants and algae, while the other forms are dispersed among various taxonomic groups.

The chlorophyll molecule consists of two parts: an elaborate ring structure that actually absorbs the light, and a long tail-like section that anchors the molecule in the membrane. Photosynthetic bacteria contain similar pigments called bacteriochlorophyll a and b.

Carotenoids, the othermajor group of photosynthetic pigments, also occur in various forms and are found in all types of photosynthetic plants, algae, and bacteria. The xanthophylls, which are oxygenated carotenoids, form another widespread and diverse subgroup of pigments.

Carotenoid molecules have elongated structures and, like the chlorophylls, are embedded in the photosynthetic membranes. It is a popular misconception that the change in leaf color that takes place in the fall is the result of the formation of new yellow or orange carotenoid pigments.

Actually, the carotenoids are present all the time but are masked by the presence of the green chlorophyll. In fall, the chlorophyll begins to decompose more rapidly than the carotenoids, whose yellow colors are then exposed.

Chlorophyll a, or something very similar to it, occurs almost universally in photosynthetic organisms, from bacteria to higher plants, because it is an essential component of photosynthetic reaction centers. All of the other chlorophylls and carotenoids involved in light absorption are referred to as accessory pigments.

Another kind of accessory pigment found in some groups of algae and photosynthetic bacteria are the phycobili proteins, which may impart a red or blue color to the cells in which they occur. These molecules consist of a light-absorbing portion bound to a protein.

In fact, all types of pigment molecules seem to be bound to proteins within the photosynthetic membranes. These pigment-protein associations are sometimes referred to as light-harvesting complexes, a term that accurately describes their function.

Properties of Light

To understand the functioning of photosynthetic pigments, it is necessary to consider first the physical nature of light.

Visible light is only a small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, which ranges from very short wavelength radiation, such as X rays, to extremely long wavelength radiation, such as radio waves. The visible portion of the spectrum is intermediate in wave length and ranges from blue (at the short end) to red (at the long end).

Sunlight contains a mixture of all the visible wavelengths, which humans perceive as white light. The energy of light is inversely proportional to its wavelength; blue light has more energy than an equivalent amount of red light.

Lightmay be thought of as consisting of either waves or particles. For purposes of studying light absorption by pigments, it is easier to think of light as particles, referred to as photons or quanta.

When a photon is absorbed by a pigment molecule, the photon&#8217;s energy is transferred to one of the electrons of the pigment. The electron is thus said to enter an excited state and contains the energy originally associated with the photon of light.

A specific kind of pigment is not capable of absorbing all the photons it encounters. Only photons of certain energy (and therefore wavelength) can be absorbed by each pigment.

For example, chlorophyll primarily absorbs light in the blue and red wave lengths but not in the green portion of the spectrum. Consequently, the green light to which chlorophyll is exposed is either transmitted through it or reflected from it, with the result being that the pigment appears green.

The color of the pigment results from the wavelengths of light that are not absorbed. Carotenoids do not absorb light in the yellow to orange portion of the spectrum and, therefore, are seen as being that color.

The process of light absorption begins when a photon of appropriate energy strikes a chlorophyll or carotenoid molecule located on a thylakoid or other photosynthetic membrane, thus causing an electron in the pigment to be raised to an excited state.

If two pigment molecules are situated adjacent to each other in exactly the right orientation and are separated by a very small distance, it is possible for the energy of excitation to be transferred from one molecule to the next.

This transfer process (referred to as Forster resonance) enables the excitation energy tomigrate throughout the array of pigment molecules that are attached to the photosynthetic membrane.

In addition to pigment molecules, the membranes also contain a smaller number of special structures called reaction centers, which consist of special chlorophyll and protein molecules arranged in a very specific fashion.

The excitation energy migrating throughout the pigment array will eventually find its way to one of the reaction centers, and there it is utilized to form new energy-containing molecules.

All of this occurs with a large number of photons and pigment molecules simultaneously. The array of pigment molecules feeding excitation energy into the reaction centers contains both chlorophylls and carotenoids and is sometimes referred to as an antenna, to indicate its role in light absorption.

This overall process constitutes the light reactions of photosynthesis. The energy-containing molecules thus formed will then be used in the Calvin cycle to convert carbon dioxide into carbohydrates: Light energy has been converted into chemical energy.

Pigment Functions

Chlorophyll a, as well as the other chlorophylls, makes up a major portion of the antenna pigments that absorb light energy and transfer it to the reaction centers. The carotenoids, which are also part of the antenna, seem to contribute in two ways to the effectiveness of the light absorption process.

First, they increase the range of wavelengths that can be absorbed. Chlorophyll absorbs mainly in the blue and red portions of the spectrum but is not effective at absorbing other wavelengths.

Carotenoids are able to absorb some of the green light that would be unusable if chlorophyll were the only pigment present, so having a combination of different pigments makes the organism more effective at using the various wavelengths that occur in sunlight. A second function of the carotenoids has to do with their ability to protect chlorophyll from damage by intense light.

Under conditions of high light intensity, chlorophyll has a tendency to decompose through a process called photooxidation. The presence of carotenoids prevents this decomposition fromoccurring and enables the chlorophyll to continue to function effectively at light intensities that would otherwise cause damage.

Although virtually all photosynthetic organisms utilize some form of chlorophyll in light absorption, an exception is found in the halobacteria.

These bacteria live in conditions of very high salt concentration, such as the Dead Sea or the Great Salt Lake. In these bacteria is found a purple membrane containing molecules of a pigment called bacteriorhodopsin which, remarkably, is very similar to rhodopsin, the pigment found in the visual systems of higher animals.

When bacteriorhodopsin molecules absorb light, they cause a hydrogen ion (a proton of H+) to be ejected across the cell membrane, and this leads to the formation of energy-containing molecules that the bacterium can utilize for its various metabolic requirements. Research with these unique photosynthetic organisms may also lead to a better understanding of the molecular basis and evolution of vision in animals.

http://lifeofplant.blogspot.com/2011/03/photosynthetic-light-absorption.html
I can see now why catalyst is not the best choice of words, perhaps "smooths out the 2 extremes" is a better choice, based on what they are saying.

Back to Red Sun v 660, well I could probably replace the Red Suns with Florsuns (that would be 5/8) with a good 630:680 ratio, then chime in with one uvl 660 for flowering + 2 Coral Waves. That might be a hot ticket
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
I'm glad we are finally getting somewhere. I'm already considering switching out my LED order a little. Instead of using any BLUE LEDs and WARM WHITE LEDs, I would just switch them out with all NEUTRAL WHITES. This was my plan from the start, until I read all the posts from Weezard and the results he was getting with 460nm and 660nm only.

Up until seeing Weezards posts, I was planning on following what someone else did with his DIY LED setup which he used a ratio of 3:1:3, NEUTRAL WHITE, 630NM, 660NM.
In other words for every LED engine he used, he put in 3 x neutral whites, 1 x 630nm and 3 x 660nm. The neutral whites have 630nm in them as well so I don't see the necessity behind adding any pure 630nm leds to the mix. What's your opinion about that? I was just going to do a 3:4 ratio of NEUTRAL WHITE to 660nm LEDs.

I'm seeing some things happen with the 660nm heavy fixture. It just doesn't seem to have enough "driving" light. This is MY INTUITION and yes I do have that quality as well. I don't like to analyze to this extent normally, but I've been trying to figure this shit out for so long, all the while seeing my different strains do different things under the lights. My Lemon Skunk like the 660nm heavy light fixture a lot more than anything else. This is what I want to get to the bottom of.

The guy that I was watching do his DIY LED grow with the 3:1:3 setup has the best grow I've seen from absolutely anyone so far. I just don't think the pure 630nm LED is necessary since there is so much of that wavelength already in the NEUTRAL WHITE.
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
One thing I never understood is why some people use this graph,


And other people use this graph which tells them that green, yellow, and orange light do nothing,

Do you see where I'm going with this? I remember at one point in time, you and I both agreed that green, yellow, orange light was super important to all plants. This was up until I researched Weezards grows and posts. Know what I'm saying? What the fuck is the difference between these graphs? I know that the one you posted is used on the backs of Hortilux Eye HPS and MH packaging, while the one I posted is what scientists are saying the wavelengths that plants truly only need. Fuck me sideways. And please no one come in here saying, just put it in some dirt, throw some water on that shit and plug in a HPS light. I'm already doing that in the back ground. This is all side experimental shit FYI. LOLbongsmilie
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
I'm doing the multiple posts, to keep the ideas organized, just so you know. And not trying to rack up posts, I could care less. That way you can refer back to the post number like you just did which is really nice.

I wanted to give a quick update with a few strains. All three plants in the first photo have been under the 660nm heavy fixture.

The plant on the left is RP Sour D. Notice the fucked up, dark green growth? The plant in the middle is my own creation which is RP Sour D crossed with Cali-O. You can see that the Sour D is the dominant trait in the plant. It's really looking quite nice, but it's also having some trouble like the Sour D(the picture doesn't show it but it has some leaf twist). Can't wait to find out if it's M or F.

The plant on the right is the same RP Sour D crossed with Cali-O that is obviously showing a dominance on the Cali-O side. Notice how nicely the plant on the right is growing? I believe this to be because of the Cali-O Sativa dominance characteristics which likes the extra blue light. (And extra deep red maybe?) The pure Cali-O did not do well under the orange tinted light I noticed. I think it's really interesting how you actually see the strain cross dominance in the leaves of the 3 different strains. Now, the only plant that is truly liking the 660nm dominant fixture is the RP Sour D/Cali-O cross that is Sativa dominant on the right in the first photo.
compare 3.jpg

Now in the next 2 photos you can see how both plants are reaching up towards the fixture, bathing in all their glory. They are both DNA Lemon Skunk. They are growing quite well under the 660nm dominant fixture which is a little blue heavy and always have grown well under it. They handle the extra blue very nicely. They did NOT do well under the 630nm dominant fixture. I think this is pretty damn crazy that there is this huge of difference between Cannabis strains, but I can 99% guarantee it's due to the Sativa dominance in the Lemon Skunk and Cali-O. It makes me want to just choose between the strains, but I like them all.

Lemon Skunk,
660nm Lemon Skunk.jpg660nm Lemon Skunk 2.jpg
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
It's been about an hour since my last post and my Lemon Skunk has perked up way more and has even had noticeable growth under the 660nm dominant fixture. I'm starting to really believe in the fact that "fine tuned light spectrums" are strain specific. I may have to just build one DIY LED light for the Lemon Skunk that is 660nm dominant and build another for the Sour D that is more 630nm dominant. The tests are holding true to the hypothesis. Sativa's prefer more blue and deeper red, while Indica's prefer less blue and more 630nm red. Very interesting.

Lemon Skunk only 1 hour later or so after moving the 660nm fixture closer to the canopy,

Isn't she a beaut?

It's crazy how nice she doing in that tiny container with only coco. It's only a 4" x 4" x 4" pot and only filled about 75% to the top! Home and Garden Nutes I think I love you.

Here she is under regular light,
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
my weeds laced umm okay buddy, yeah fuck this shit unsubbed and glad to go, honestly fonze the way you type is boring an if anyone can receive your info it would be petF so have fun in your 2 sided conversation. your still cool i guess but you have a lot to learn none of this is pertinent info since ive grown with about every lighting style there is(cept LED)and i know what kind of balance i am looking for, 1 red to 2 blues veg 1.5 red to 1 blue flower and thats the ratio. ive been using this ratio for long time with good results 430HPS adn 400Mh cover this ratio perfect i could also be replicated with flouro. anyways moving on.

on a side note try emulating PFs way of writing and large vocab and very descriptive, also cutting out a lot of personal BS and opinions. and also notice he space sentences to switch subjects and trys not write a wall as much as possible often making several posts so as to expand if needed. peace out guys.
Poly, Funny that you cite me as an easy read. I have gotten similar complaints! Fonzs long windedness is due to his extreme awakening to the possibilities. His mind is swirling like a cyclone. I expect he will get more word frugal over time. So yes, you have to be micro-detailed and cutting edge oriented to follow right now. So, if you haven't yet jumped ship, I suggest you stop back in say a month

The thing is Indica and Sat do require different spectral blends. As fonz gets a handle on the proper ratios, his 411 This knowledge could be huge for people starting out. Consider if someone tries to grow Indicas under Sat lighting conditions, they could get very frustrated. I have R & Dd My DIY 21st Century F & D for similar reasons
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
PF, we ARE onto something big here. I'm sitting here trying to decide what I should do. Focus on one spectrum for all my Sativa dominant strains and just use the trusty ol' MH and HPS for my Indy's, OR, actually figure out WHAT the wavelengths are that the Sour D and my other Indica dominant strains are lacking in so that I can build it into one light, and adjust that spectrum with a dimmer.

I checked out the Sour D today after moving the lights closer to them. They corrected themselves a little bit, but not nearly as much as under the 630nm dominant fixture.

Could you please answer my question about those graphs? The one's on the back of the Hortilux packaging vs. the scientific one that I posted? I would like to know if these are 2 different types of graphs or if they mean the same thing. There are a lot of people out there that would agree that most plants do not require the 500-610 part of the spectrum.

Could it be just the 630 red-orange that the Indica dominant strains prefer? I would like to conclude this research by finding out if, for cannabis varieties, the green through orange spectrum is required at all. What if it's just 630 and up? What if the Indica's prefer the shallow red 630nm OVER the 660nm, and the Sativa's are the other way around?

With this being said, it makes me wonder if Indica's maybe prefer the more visible part of the red/blue spectrum and for Sativa's the more non-visible parts of red/blue? Just a thought.
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
i can tell you have not met many cracks heads or speed head.

and also its not a matter of unorganized thoughts alone i have a rough life and it would be super hard for me to sit here and think about some bullshit(not meaning to call this bullshit cause there is useful info in here) most of the time. more often than not i have about 10,000(exaggeration) other things i have to handle. so often im just bullshitting with people instead of actually trying to form research and calculations. trust me had i more time and $ i could easily keep up. and write much more organized info, often the case is i just find myself mentally exhausted from other things and i dont feel like getting in depth or writing books.


so for your understanding of this, i will delete my posts and i guess i apologize and my guess was that was your apology.

sorry im a pretty violent person. i do believe in violence tho, but thats just part of nature we need not get into that but my belief in violence is it is a part of life/nature and is okay.
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
like right now i have to take 2 6"x6" 3/8" steel steel drill 2 holes in each drill 2 holes in the frame of a car bolt it all together then bolt a sway bar linkage to that then weld it all together for good measure. then i have a power steering pump that need replaced in addition to the lines. i have to reroute the security sytem and bridgne the ignition around it and about a dozen other things i missed.

@PF you can be both hard and easy to read most of the time the only reason i dont understand something from you is when you use a complicating string of words, keeping the sentence short, but making the understanding of what you implying easy to understand but only if you know the words and how they relate.

okay well im done here for now i will be checking on to see how it progresses but i have nothing pertinent to add right now my mind is on cars.
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
sorry im a pretty violent person. i do believe in violence tho, but thats just part of nature we need not get into that but my belief in violence is it is a part of life/nature and is okay.
I understand what you are saying. I'm Taoist myself and I've read the "Art of War." I studied Wing Chung for 5 years which is based on the philosophy of using the other person's violent energy against them instead of having to waste your own energy.

The philosophy also teaches you to only fight when threatened and only when necessary. Everything else is just plain wrong. I'm a nature person myself, but I don't view nature as violent. My favorite animal is the Wolf, and I've had a wild Beta Wolf come up to me and lick my face before so I know they are not violent animals. They only appear violent to the untrained eye. Shit, everyone has to eat right? I'm sure if wolves knew how to grow a garden they wouldn't be wasting their energy running around fucking up shit for fun!

I don't think we are as different as you think. I actually grew up in the heart of the ghetto in Chicago. Many of my friends smoked all kinds of shit, sold it, messed a lot of other people up etc. It's not like I don't understand, I just choose not to live that way.

And not that it matters, but you can call me a "junkie" if you want. I'm opiate dependent and I hate having to deal with taking oxy's all day every day, but I have a chronic fucked up spinal condition and I can't live without the shit. It takes about 120mg of the shit just so I can walk and I wouldn't be able to par-take in these experiments if it wasn't for the opiates which is very sad for me, but what else can I do at the moment. Weed helps, but only to a certain extent.

So no, I'm not some rich bitch, college boy, trustafarian, that you want to come and beat to a pulp. I have a .44 mag and two 9mm Kahr K9 Elites just in case tho as I cannot defend myself anymore. :)

Okay, I'm done, posts removed, back to biz-nass!
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
I understand what you are saying. I'm Taoist myself and I've read the "Art of War." I studied Wing Chung for 5 years which is based on the philosophy of using the other person's violent energy against them instead of having to waste your own energy.

The philosophy also teaches you to only fight when threatened and only when necessary. Everything else is just plain wrong. I'm a nature person myself, but I don't view nature as violent. My favorite animal is the Wolf, and I've had a wild Beta Wolf come up to me and lick my face before so I know they are not violent animals. They only appear violent to the untrained eye. Shit, everyone has to eat right? I'm sure if wolves knew how to grow a garden they wouldn't be wasting their energy running around fucking up shit for fun!

I don't think we are as different as you think. I actually grew up in the heart of the ghetto in Chicago. Many of my friends smoked all kinds of shit, sold it, messed a lot of other people up etc. It's not like I don't understand, I just choose not to live that way.

And not that it matters, but you can call me a "junkie" if you want. I'm opiate dependent and I hate having to deal with taking oxy's all day every day, but I have a chronic fucked up spinal condition and I can't live without the shit. It takes about 120mg of the shit just so I can walk and I wouldn't be able to par-take in these experiments if it wasn't for the opiates which is very sad for me, but what else can I do at the moment. Weed helps, but only to a certain extent.

So no, I'm not some rich bitch, college boy, trustafarian, that you want to come and beat to a pulp. I have a .44 mag and two 9mm Kahr K9 Elites just in case tho as I cannot defend myself anymore. :)

Okay, I'm done, posts removed, back to biz-nass!
now that definitely means we have more in common than you think and thats what i figured, i now know why we butt heads .

yeah stay with the guns man safer for everyone IMO. the thing about fighting is much like wolves to me i believe there is some truth to physical dominance.

and last but not least i dont do drugs. i dont really consider weed a drug to me at least not now a days.. but that and a few other thing maybe once a year is all i do. i do not drink at all tho.

and trust me i dont act as ghetto as your portraying simply that must be how i appear to you since my initial comment to you was ghetto as fuck.

but hay all the luck keep up the good work your right back to business im on the sidelines unless i can come up with some good info.
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
^^^^^^way cool bro.

I received an email back in reply to Illumitex in regards to critical differences in plant physiology and morphology based on different spetra.

Here is their response:

Hi Barry-

Thank you for your inquiry.

I’ve attached our Spectra Guide and Eclipse Fixture Spec Sheet that should help answer your questions regarding the F1 and F3 Eclipse Fixtures. You will notice two additional spectra on the Eclipse piece, the X5 and FR 730nm. We’re updating the Spectra Guide to reflect those additions.

Our in-house research has demonstrated critical differences in plant physiology and morphology based on different spetra. That information is proprietary, however, and shared only with project customers.

Best Regards,

Marc Ferguson, Director
Horticulture Lighting


512.279.5034 (d)
512.627.1192 (m)
5307 Industrial Oaks Blvd.
Austin, TX 78735


Nice huh? Thanks for almost nothing!

This forum is having some major problems with uploading photos. Until they get it fixed I suggest people us an image hosting site like Imageshack. Not sure if they allow photos of herb however.

Here is the only info they sent regarding the spectra they use, for who knows what types of plants. Probably mostly lettuce and plants that do not require a higher intensity based on the amount of light their products put out, but then again, who knows.





So with what little information this product data gives us, we may be able to figure out a little more.




 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
^^^^^^^You can see the PPF of 625nm is 52umol/s vs. 660nm at 98umol/s in their chart.

Basically, I think this shows that the proper 630/660nm blend should be around 1:2? That's the way I'm interpreting it anway.

Also, based on this chart below on PPF, you would need around 10 of the Surexi Abeo LEDs per sq ft (or per plant) to grow a proper tomato.

This is why it is so important to use higher powered LEDs like 5w or 10w'rs.

The higher power is not the culprit for the bleaching however, the bleaching is a result of a spectral imbalance or an over-abundance of red/deep red, which causes photosynthesis to shut down. This is why the bleaching is reversed by either moving the lights further from the canopy, or dimming the red/deep red on the fixture.(when applicable:))

I would say that if you are having a problem with bleaching, and still want to keep your plants closer to the lights, you need to figure out a way to get some green into the spectrum, or just throw away your $2000 LED fixture that you wasted your money on because it wasn't built correctly.



Also, they are using 525nm green wavelength in small proportions. This looks a lot like the light spectrum I was originally intending to build. Mostly 460nm + 660nm with a little Warm White. I just don't know if the few Warm White LEDs are going to produce enough of the 625nm wavelength since the 625nm is just a % of the warm whites although heavy.

Just for fun, I've linked a product here that uses the Surexi technology in their product. I've never heard of the company before who builds this light. But here is a cool video from YouTube that shows this fixture under heavy rain. It's pretty cool! It looks like embedding is disabled so you have to click the link to youtube to watch. Do it though because it's pretty cool.

It looks like they are using aluminum bars as passive heatsinking for the Surexi LEDs which are waterproof, another plus. But they are still low power LEDs which in turn do not have the ability to penetrate into bigger trees.

I'm convinced that Illumitex knows their shit. They are a research facility, not just some basement grower/ hydro store salesman dickhead that is trying to get money by having the Chinese build their bullshit 100 band wavelength grow lights. Rant!

Seriously, I'm sick of all the gimmicks, Illumitex is the real mccoy. You will not find their products in any grow store. I believe by combining their research with Weezards ideas/philosophies, we can come up with something that works for growing trees.

[video=youtube;Ou389EJs11Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou389EJs11Q&amp;feature=player_embedded[/video]

Here is the product website page for the Envirolux grow fixture, no idea how much they cost, and don't care. I'm building not buying!

http://www.globalhardwarestore.com/envirolux-3-rail-pro-system-extreme/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
Here is a video of the Illumitex research headquarters and biggest vertical garden in the world.

[video=youtube;5MfcsCyHbYI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MfcsCyHbYI[/video]

Here is their website.

www.illumitex.com
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
@PF and anyone else that may be lurking,

I think this pretty much clears up our little debate between which is better, 630nm vs 660nm. It's not so much a matter of which is better, as what is needed by the specific plant. I still think that overall, if one were to build a bi-wavelength red/blue grow light, they would be better off using the 660nm over 630nm.

Basically what these people are saying is what we already have been hypothesizing. 630nm has the highest quantum yield(could you explain what this means if you know), but 660nm action is much more than 630nm for the red-phytochrome and photosynthesis. Therefore, the 630nm wavelength can be used to balance out the phytochrome equilibrium to that closer to "sunlight" conditions than those with just 660nm alone, especially when added together with 730nm wavelength. Presto!


So I may have to re-think my DIY LED fixture. What's up with the 730nm in these Surexi's? Do you think they are intended to only be on at the end of a light cycle or on with the other wavelengths during the light cycle. According to this statement here in order to assist the 630nm in balancing out the phytochrome equilibrium the 730nm would also need to be on DURING the light cycle right? Then maybe on ONLY by itself at the end of the light cycle????????????

So I'm now thinking of doing a 5-band LED light using 460nm, 525nm(like 1 led), 630nm, 660n, 730nm. Now I have to work on the proportions and the other shitty thing is I have to incorporate another driver as the 630nm and 730nm run at the same forward voltage.
 
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