Advantage V. disadvantage CFL's

lastfrontier

Well-Known Member
it is a fact that HID produces more lumens per watt i can't say which ballast is better or more efficient i think CFL's have established there place in the growing world and i love them but i also love HID if i had a farm it would be HID mixed kelvin all the way to the bank but for the home i use CFL and right now my lights are off and the freezer is full there is much to be learned from growing with CFL's i think every one that is intrested should read the book by the garden knowm i found it very informing
 

ceestyle

Well-Known Member
holy crap guys... someone other than me just try it! If you expend x amount of energy in a room regardless of the source you will need x amount of ventilation because x amount of thermal energy is ultimately made...

Yes some of the energy is directly used in the plants growth but not enough to calculate it into a design of a ventilation system. I guess to really find out you would have to let a plant die and decay and calculate the release of that energy as it decomposes... it wouldn't amount to a hell of a lot..

(100 watts), Btu/hour= Watts x 3.413 = 341 Btu/hour are produced in a hundred watt grow room. period. You really think the plants can even start to make a dent on this?

you may be right..ceestyle.. those sure are long words... but this is my experience.

You seem to believe that all energy is converted to heat. This is simply not the case. You could very easily do some calculations to get a ball-park idea of the energy conversion rate per leaf area of a plant(I'm sure it's been done scientifically ad nauseum), but it's not necessary to see the point.

Put a 150W heater in a box and then take it out and put some plants and a 150W HPS in a box with them. Tell me if there's any difference. Easy experiment, and apparently the only way you'll believe me.
 

alka

Active Member
ok done... same heat result, The only things i had for comparison are a 1000 watt space heater and my hps. I put the ballast outside the room and closed the door. (the test room is a bathroom, i brought 5 large house plants in for our plant subjects.) My house thermo is set to 22 degrees. Only vent out is bathroom vent kept on. 2- 6 hours tests. With the space heater the room reached a temperature of 38.5 degrees after 4 hours and stayed there, with the hps 40 even (it reached temp faster too). (i think the difference has to do with the air movement that the space heater made).

I tried to put the same mass of plant material in as a grow room, one big spider plant, a couple climbers and some potted grape vines from outside.

OK so whats your point? they are the same..... try it too! then you will know!
 

ceestyle

Well-Known Member
ok done... same heat result, The only things i had for comparison are a 1000 watt space heater and my hps. I put the ballast outside the room and closed the door. (the test room is a bathroom, i brought 5 large house plants in for our plant subjects.) My house thermo is set to 22 degrees. Only vent out is bathroom vent kept on. 2- 6 hours tests. With the space heater the room reached a temperature of 38.5 degrees after 4 hours and stayed there, with the hps 40 even (it reached temp faster too). (i think the difference has to do with the air movement that the space heater made).

I tried to put the same mass of plant material in as a grow room, one big spider plant, a couple climbers and some potted grape vines from outside.

OK so whats your point? they are the same..... try it too! then you will know!
The test as you performed it only tested the ability of your bathroom to retain heat, not the energy uptake of your plants. You need a small, well-ventilated grow environment, where you are already maintaining the proper temperature for plants.

Let me try this again. Do you understand that energy exists in many other forms besides those we observe as temperature?

A grow light converts electrical energy into radiation, which a plant turns into chemical energy.

Have you noticed the color of a plant's leaf? Did you ever wonder why it is not the same as the light coming out of the bulb, both in color and intensity?

This is because the plant is absorbing most of the light that strikes it, and converting it to chemical energy. Only a small amount of heat is produced during these processes.
 

alka

Active Member
I am sorry ceestyle, i see where you are going but the amount of energy you are describing that is actually used and converted by the plants is not worth calculating compared to the heat given off by the bulb itself. The plant might offset a few watts worth of heat but not a noticeable difference for anyone. I was second guessing myself, thats why i tried it .. but the laws of thermodynamics still apply to pot growers.
I really don't want to get into the "less than a percent" change that the "type" of energy being produced might influence. It certainly didn't change my experiment. If i had a thousand watts of cfls i would do the same thing.. but i already know the results.
I am talking in a broad scale here, there are hairs to split on every subject. I don't want people to think that their plants are making a appreciable difference to the temperature of their grow room or that their 250 watts of cfls are "cooler" than their 250 watts of hid.

Since you have the answers and you are so adamant on this subject what do you beleive the actual difference in heat would be between a 100 watt cfl, 100 watt hps or a space heater inside a closed grow box (1 cubic meter)? With the same total room ventilation.
 

alka

Active Member
Explain to me why you think a plant under HID is a dull green, but a light's reflection from mylar is apparently as bright as the bulb itself.

All of this is perfectly consistent with the laws of thermodynamics.


say what? who said plants under hid are a dull green?

it depends on the color temp and cri of the bulb as well. The pigmentation and refraction values of the surface, and the wavelengths of absorbed and reflected light. This is a little off topic tho.

As for thermodynamics

each time a energy type is converted a certain amount of that is given off as waste (heat) until there is either no energy left or it is stored (potential energy)- the chemical energy you are ranting about.

we can find out how much chemical energy is stored by releasing it by combustion or decomposition.

Lets break it down for you in terms of heating values.(Btu/hour)

Potential chemical energy in 1 pound plant material (wood for this example) = 6400 btu
(based on total release of energy in one hour)
Total heat energy from 1000 watt bulb = 3413 btu/hour x 12 hours x 50 days 12/12= 2047800 btu.

So there it is... the plant will offset by storing as potential energy approximately 6400/2000000 or 0.32 percent of heat.

The other 99.68 percent of the energy used by the light becomes waste heat.
 

ceestyle

Well-Known Member
say what? who said plants under hid are a dull green?

it depends on the color temp and cri of the bulb as well. The pigmentation and refraction values of the surface, and the wavelengths of absorbed and reflected light. This is a little off topic tho.

As for thermodynamics

each time a energy type is converted a certain amount of that is given off as waste (heat) until there is either no energy left or it is stored (potential energy)- the chemical energy you are ranting about.

we can find out how much chemical energy is stored by releasing it by combustion or decomposition.

Lets break it down for you in terms of heating values.(Btu/hour)

Potential chemical energy in 1 pound plant material (wood for this example) = 6400 btu
(based on total release of energy in one hour)
Total heat energy from 1000 watt bulb = 3413 btu/hour x 12 hours x 50 days 12/12= 2047800 btu.

So there it is... the plant will offset by storing as potential energy approximately 6400/2000000 or 0.32 percent of heat.

The other 99.68 percent of the energy used by the light becomes waste heat.
Please don't try to "explain" thermodynamics to me. I've taught it several times.

I find that plant material of this type of plant is approximately 24,000 J/g (Journal of Biogeography, Vol. 12, No. 2 (Mar., 1985), pp. 121-134). Converting to the units you used gives about 53,000 btu per pound, making it more dense, energetically, than wood.

Next, you use a 1000W watt bulb for many plants, not just one. A target for growers is 1g/watt of dried plant material. If we assume that the roots, stems, and leaves that support the bud material are 3x the dried weight, that gives 4g/W of total plant material.

So:

1000W = 1000 J/s * 3600 s/hr * 12 hr/day * 60 days = 2,592,200,000 J
1000W * 4 g/W * 24,000 J/g = 96,000,000 J

This gives about 4%. This is in the ballpark of the literature-cited photosynthetic efficiency at one sun of about 10-13% (New Phytologist, 131(3), 291, 2006).

So yes, the numbers do suggest that direct conversion to plant matter under the equivalent of one sun via photosynthesis is not going to make an enormous difference.

That said, there are other things to consider:

1. Much of the plant's derived energy is used on processes that are not manifested in additional plant matter, such as nutrient transport and cell-wall repair. These are cyclic processes that occur during light and dark, with losses in the form of irreversibilities (entropy) and yes, heat.

2. At lower light levels, photosynthetic efficiency can be near 100% quantum efficiency. Less light, more efficient processing.

3. The plant has an effective way of reducing temperatures - evaporative cooling via transpiration. The plant is cooled by the energy input required to vaporize water, which is then presumably taken from the system via ventilation.

If a plant on average drinks about 500ml of water per day (obviously this varies with size of the plant), and you have about 20 under a 1000W HID, the energy expended by vaporization is:

500 ml/day * 1 g/ml * 2270 J/g * 60 days * 20 plants = 1,362,000,000 J

This is about 50% of the energy input to the system, so yes, this would make a difference.
 

alka

Active Member
Please don't try to "explain" thermodynamics to me. I've taught it several times.

I find that plant material of this type of plant is approximately 24,000 J/g (Journal of Biogeography, Vol. 12, No. 2 (Mar., 1985), pp. 121-134). Converting to the units you used gives about 53,000 btu per pound, making it more dense, energetically, than wood.
...

This is about 50% of the energy input to the system, so yes, this would make a difference.
Dude are you on crack? 53,000 btu /lb your pot must be some kinda new super fuel.. here are some other good fuel sources.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]A:[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Alfalfa Pellets = 7729 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Aspen Pellets = 8501 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Corn - Shell = 8100 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Dried Distillers Grain (DDG) = 9400 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Hardwood Pellet = 8573 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Oats = 8242 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Soybeans = 10230 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Straw-Wheat Pellets = 7375 BTU/lb [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Straw-Oat Pellets = 7626 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sugar Beet Pulp Pellets = 7345 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sunflower Hulls = 9654 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Wheat (Hard Red Spring) = 8063 BTU/lb[/FONT]

so you are saying your pot is 53,000 btu/lb... wow!

and come on! 50 percent of the energy put into the system absorbed by that plant? your are over by a factor of 100 times there... i don't care what you say you taught but you lost my faith...
 

ceestyle

Well-Known Member
Dude are you on crack? 53,000 btu /lb your pot must be some kinda new super fuel.. here are some other good fuel sources.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]A:[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Alfalfa Pellets = 7729 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Aspen Pellets = 8501 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Corn - Shell = 8100 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Dried Distillers Grain (DDG) = 9400 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Hardwood Pellet = 8573 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Oats = 8242 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Soybeans = 10230 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Straw-Wheat Pellets = 7375 BTU/lb [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Straw-Oat Pellets = 7626 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sugar Beet Pulp Pellets = 7345 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sunflower Hulls = 9654 BTU/lb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Wheat (Hard Red Spring) = 8063 BTU/lb[/FONT]

so you are saying your pot is 53,000 btu/lb... wow!

and come on! 50 percent of the energy put into the system absorbed by that plant? your are over by a factor of 100 times there... i don't care what you say you taught but you lost my faith...
Well, I cited my source. Please point out my error. It could be conversion - I don't use british units. It's besides the point, however, as I agreed that the conversion rate is small compared to the overall input of the system. In any case, it has nothing to do with crack (asshole).

The 50% figure is not related to the conversion of light to chemical energy, it is simply the energy released by the conversion of water from liquid to vapor (heat of vaporization).
 

alka

Active Member
sorry ceestyle... look.. we're not gonna see eye to eye on this so.. i'm done, all a can say is i personally don't agree with your math here at all on many points... not just your btu conversion. I am frustrated and i don't want this to turn into an argument.
I don't care what your qualifications are... none of that matters here... It seems you are only arguing for the sake of it and it does not seem contructive anymore especially once i saw your "fix" to a very simple equation i used to show potential energy stored by plant material. What more your equation was so far off the mark i really hope you didn't do too much thermodynamics teaching.
 

ceestyle

Well-Known Member
sorry ceestyle... look.. we're not gonna see eye to eye on this so.. i'm done, all a can say is i personally don't agree with your math here at all on many points... not just your btu conversion. I am frustrated and i don't want this to turn into an argument.
I don't care what your qualifications are... none of that matters here... It seems you are only arguing for the sake of it and it does not seem contructive anymore especially once i saw your "fix" to a very simple equation i used to show potential energy stored by plant material. What more your equation was so far off the mark i really hope you didn't do too much thermodynamics teaching.
Please point out my error. As I pointed out (did you read it?), even that math error doesn't change the point of my post. If you had read it, you would have seen that I came to the same conclusion that you did - that the conversion to chemical energy wouldn't result in an overwhelming overall difference.

What a completely disingenuous post. "I don't want to get in an argument, but your math is wrong and you're too stupid to teach thermo."

Fuck off.
 

alka

Active Member
ok.. here goes...

I used 50 days 12/12 for my light calculation to put on 1 pound final material..

This is the flowering cycle only... you used 4 grams per watt... you say 4000 grams in 50 days of additional weight? Thats like 8.5lbs This is wrong.. no two ways about it. I would love 8.5 lbs of bud. I used one pound cause its more realistic.

You ended up with four percent.. this is close... when you factor in the actual potential energy in plant materials.. approx 8000btu/hr/lb X 1055 X 3600 = 8,400,000 joules per pound, the stored energy comes down to less than 0.5 percent for most materials.
 

alka

Active Member
you know i just looked back at what we just started arguing about... seems so long ago now..
i'm sorry ceestyle... you just got me worked up... I hate being told i am wrong... Anyway i apologize entirely if i really offended you... I wasn't trying to be malicious.
 

ceestyle

Well-Known Member
ok.. here goes...

I used 50 days 12/12 for my light calculation to put on 1 pound final material..

This is the flowering cycle only... you used 4 grams per watt... you say 4000 grams in 50 days of additional weight? Thats like 8.5lbs This is wrong.. no two ways about it. I would love 8.5 lbs of bud. I used one pound cause its more realistic.

You ended up with four percent.. this is close... when you factor in the actual potential energy in plant materials.. approx 8000btu/hr/lb X 1055 X 3600 = 8,400,000 joules per pound, the stored energy comes down to less than 0.5 percent for most materials.
See? Now we can have a normal conversation. That was easy. I appreciate you having the composure to revisit our posts prior to that, um, whatever happened. I'm very result-oriented, so I don't really have a personal stake in my calculations. I make math errors all the time. That is what computers are for, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, thank you for the apology, and I'm sorry if I seemed pointed, but I respond much differently to being told that I'm wrong as opposed to being told that I'm stupid.

The reason I used 4g/W was that I included the balance of all the plant material, including roots and leaves, estimated of course. 1g/W dry bud is usually the target, which would give about 2 lbs and change, which seems reasonable, or at least ballpark for yield under a 1000W HID. I'm not sure where the discrepancy in energy content comes from, but even with your estimate above, if you include the remaining plant material you still get 2%.
 

alka

Active Member
ceestyle, yeah.. i was thinking of my previous grows and my 1000w hps would give me about a lb, i found the fan leaves didn't weigh more than about a third of that dry, i even never thought of increased root size. so i guess i was averageing around 0.5-0.6 grams per watt... However my light was fairly old and had been used for quite a few grows. Now i only grow with cfl's i find i am getting a little less per watt including trim.

I don't really talk much on forums and i realized that i really need to be careful with how i word things, since you can't hear my tone or inflections in my voice, things that sound innocuous to me, read out a little hostile.

Your posts have been intelligent and informative and i am glad you are helping others the way you are. I have been doing this for quite a few years too and have learned one or two things along the way so please don't get offended if i pipe a friendly objection every now and then.
 

ceestyle

Well-Known Member
ceestyle, yeah.. i was thinking of my previous grows and my 1000w hps would give me about a lb, i found the fan leaves didn't weigh more than about a third of that dry, i even never thought of increased root size. so i guess i was averageing around 0.5-0.6 grams per watt... However my light was fairly old and had been used for quite a few grows. Now i only grow with cfl's i find i am getting a little less per watt including trim.

I don't really talk much on forums and i realized that i really need to be careful with how i word things, since you can't hear my tone or inflections in my voice, things that sound innocuous to me, read out a little hostile.

Your posts have been intelligent and informative and i am glad you are helping others the way you are. I have been doing this for quite a few years too and have learned one or two things along the way so please don't get offended if i pipe a friendly objection every now and then.
absolutely not. without peers, there wouldn't be review.

i understand about tone and inflection. i swore off email and IMs for meaningful communication years ago, especially because I despise emoticons, which are apparently somewhat helpful for that purpose.
 
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