Another Murder Of An African American Because of Fucked Up Laws At The Hands Of A Cop!

Kervork said:

Because dealing with dangerous and potentially armed assholes is a lot more difficult than you think it is.

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Then they should be shooting on sight those white militia members who go around in body armor with assault rifles in public. The should just assume they are terrorists, why go around dressed like a solder and armed like one. I saw one guy on TV that looked like he had a suicide vest on, he should have been head shot on sight from a safe distance.

Many of these black people were unarmed and if they were, the cop should be fired and charged with manslaughter or murder. Qualified immunity is coming to an end and there will soon be a national bad cop registry that will even prevent them from working as security guards and perhaps even possessing weapons, resigning won't keep them off it either. There will also soon be a domestic terrorist watch list, that will prohibit those on it from possessing weapons or flying. There are already thousands who are prequalified for it too and new hate crime and domestic terrorism laws will add many more assholes to it.

It's a complex topic. In decades past, people were better equipped to regulate each other. If you saw someone doing something shitty, you could punch them in the face a few times and maybe that happens once or twice and the unwanted behavior was corrected. Today, people punch someone fifty times in the face and they die, or they punch them once and are sued/jailed, or they say something to the wrong person and they get stabbed to death. The result is the death of a self-correcting society.

Additionally, the entitlement-fueled decline in the quality of American people, has changed the job of policing. Now the job is structured so that nearly anyone could do it, which means you have people that are only slightly better than the average idiot out there with guns and power. All the results we see, be it the policeman, the suspect, or even the bystander, are the result of factory pumping out an inferior product.

mooray said:

It's a complex topic. In decades past, people were better equipped to regulate each other. If you saw someone doing something shitty, you could punch them in the face a few times and maybe that happens once or twice and the unwanted behavior was corrected. Today, people punch someone fifty times in the face and they die, or they punch them once and are sued/jailed, or they say something to the wrong person and they get stabbed to death. The result is the death of a self-correcting society.

Additionally, the entitlement-fueled decline in the quality of American people, has changed the job of policing. Now the job is structured so that nearly anyone could do it, which means you have people that are only slightly better than the average idiot out there with guns and power. All the results we see, be it the policeman, the suspect, or even the bystander, are the result of factory pumping out an inferior product.

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I think that maybe this is true if you are considering it from a white male perspective it might seem like this is the case.

But Im guessing women/minorities didn't really have this option much outside of maybe their kids.

But I am not sure what the topic is, I am sorry for jumping into your conversation without reading it.

I don't think the white male should be an issue until we start talking about "why". If we think certain groups commit more crime...because they're genetically predisposed to it...that's where the white male part comes in.

Kervork said:

Because dealing with dangerous and potentially armed assholes is a lot more difficult than you think it is.

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Actually, no it isn't. If he isn't armed, and he's running from you, he poses no threat to you, so you DON'T shoot him.

Oddly, cops can always manage to bring in heavily armed, white mass murderers without a scratch, but they pump an unarmed black man running full of lead.

"Eat lead copper!!"

I miss those old movies from the 30' and 40's. They used to have them for free. Now you have to pay. Don't know why this popped into my head

V256.420 said:

"Eat lead copper!!"

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Jimmy Cagney comes to mind.

mooray said:

I don't think the white male should be an issue until we start talking about "why". If we think certain groups commit more crime...because they're genetically predisposed to it...that's where the white male part comes in.

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I am not quite sure what you mean.

I do understand that certain groups of people are tricked into thinking that certain groups are committing more crime because they are (insert sub category of human). And maybe could see that since a person was born a minority in America, they were likely born into a system aimed to suppress them with poor economic opportunities while over policed.

Both are products of the white man.

But I was lost before and think I am even more lost now. I meant in my post to point out that black people and white women couldn't really hit a white male consequence free at any point in our history. And the only person who has seen their ability to just give someone a beating (consequence free) diminish is the white man.

hanimmal said:

I am not quite sure what you mean.

I do understand that certain groups of people are tricked into thinking that certain groups are committing more crime because they are (insert sub category of human). And maybe could see that since a person was born a minority in America, they were likely born into a system aimed to suppress them with poor economic opportunities while over policed.

Both are products of the white man.

But I was lost before and think I am even more lost now. I meant in my post to point out that black people and white women couldn't really hit a white male consequence free at any point in our history. And the only person who has seen their ability to just give someone a beating (consequence free) diminish is the white man.

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Yeah we might have had different thoughts in mind, but I stand by the complex topic part though.

I do believe black people commit more crime and if I stop right there, I realize it doesn't sound very good, because that's usually where assholes stop. To expand, white people have held black people back in regard to employment and education for hundreds of years, while white people went to colleges and built wealth and embedded themselves in every corner of every industry. Only sixty years ago did we really begin to relieve just a little pressure from our shoes on the top of their heads. It's just not possible for black people to have built up equal generations of wealth and education in a much shorter span of time. The result is a group of people that are less educated and less wealthy and that's the exact path to an increase in crime, no matter what color you are. This is why the "why" is important, because there's a huge difference in the two paths when it comes time to work on the issue. The historically ignorant path would likely involve an increase in force, but the other path might focus on employment/education programs(which everyone would benefit from so why the fuck not, but that's for another day).

Then there's the police side. Same rules apply, more whites than blacks in the field and the whites have been the ones in the "superior" position for hundreds of years and that doesn't turn off overnight. There's also another issue of empathy, where people generally aren't very good at empathizing with different people that look different or live different lives, which, when combined, is exactly why a white cop says, "aw shucks, you kids stop breaking windows and move along" to white kids, versus, "GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND" to black kids. Different is scary, that's a hard coded self-preservation reality that comes from the fact that we're still animals. It's going to take another millennia before we get that right, if we make it that long.

It's a tough pill to swallow, but I'll tell you what I don't believe, which is that the issue is as simple as white cops coming down harder on black kids. Even though white cops do come down harder on black kids and it'd be nice to think that's the end, people are actually fucking over black kids by ignoring the history fueled reality of the socioeconomics that lead to an increase in crime. If a person can't acknowledge that blacks have been held to higher rates of poverty and that poverty leads to crime, just because they're too scared to say that blacks commit more crime, then they're condemning blacks to continue living disproportionately difficult lives for who knows how many more generations.

The nation needs a therapy session, just say the shit aloud so we can fiiiiiiiinally work on it for realsies this time. Same goes for the racists, just say the dumb shit out loud so we can talk about it, because Trump has shown us what happens when people keep it hidden. And for the cops, if we can't truly fix the empathy problem for a thousand years, then a stop gap bandaid is getting more black cops in black neighborhoods, bonus points if they got into a little trouble as kids.

Anyway, lots to say and it's such a sensitive topic that I really didn't even want to type this out, because I don't always nail exactly what I mean through my fingers and things come off wrong and people get spun up. Better to discuss real human issues in person over a joint-beer combo.

Old white men would be better off if they listened instead of white-splain what it means to be Black in the US. If you read what @mooray wrote, you'd learn that Black people are poor and uneducated. Also commit more crime. White people are educated and prosperous. (ahem) Bernie made the same dumbass generalizations during the 2016 election.

He's trying as to sort it out. Heart's in the right place but he has the disadvantage of ignorance on the subject. It's just that white people like him have no real clue but don't seem to be willing to admit it. On this subject, white people, him and me, have to shelve our white privilege and listen to people who know better.

Kamala Harris, for example:


STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

One of the Democratic presidential candidates is floating an idea. It's a way to pay reparations for slavery and racial discrimination. Several candidates have endorsed that notion, although they're rarely giving specifics. Senator Kamala Harris also says the matter needs study. But in a talk with NPR, she did suggest what's on her mind.

Can you give me an idea of one possible form this could take?

KAMALA HARRIS: Sure. You can look at the issue of untreated and undiagnosed trauma. African-Americans have higher rates of heart disease and high blood pressure. It is environmental. It is centuries of slavery, which was a form of violence where women were raped, where children were taken from their parents - violence associated with slavery. And that never - there was never any real intervention to break up what had been generations of people experiencing the highest forms of trauma. And trauma, undiagnosed and untreated, leads to physiological outcomes.

INSKEEP: We're talking about the same thing as post-traumatic stress from a war.

HARRIS: Sure.

INSKEEP: That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

HARRIS: Absolutely. But listen; when - unless there's intervention done, it will appear to be, perhaps, generational. But it's generational only because the environment has not experienced a significant enough change to reverse the symptoms. You need to put resources and direct resources - extra resources - into those communities that have experienced that trauma.

INSKEEP: Reparations could...

HARRIS: So that's an example, in my mind...

INSKEEP: Reparations could be mental health treatment for African-Americans, hypothetically.

HARRIS: I think reparations - yeah. I think that the word, the term reparations, it means different things to different people. But what I mean by it is that we need to study the effects of generations of discrimination and institutional racism and determine what can be done, in terms of intervention, to correct course.

And she is right. Even old white men are beginning to see that inequities in the past and systemic racism today are causing a lot of problems in the Black community including higher rates of crime. Let's get a commission going with the mission to study and document what has happened, its effects and identify solutions to the problem.

Though, a check or some form of targeted spending to provide immediate assistance might be in order too.

mooray said:

Yeah we might have had different thoughts in mind, but I stand by the complex topic part though.

I do believe black people commit more crime and if I stop right there, I realize it doesn't sound very good, because that's usually where assholes stop. To expand, white people have held black people back in regard to employment and education for hundreds of years, while white people went to colleges and built wealth and embedded themselves in every corner of every industry. Only sixty years ago did we really begin to relieve just a little pressure from our shoes on the top of their heads. It's just not possible for black people to have built up equal generations of wealth and education in a much shorter span of time. The result is a group of people that are less educated and less wealthy and that's the exact path to an increase in crime, no matter what color you are. This is why the "why" is important, because there's a huge difference in the two paths when it comes time to work on the issue. The historically ignorant path would likely involve an increase in force, but the other path might focus on employment/education programs(which everyone would benefit from so why the fuck not, but that's for another day).

Then there's the police side. Same rules apply, more whites than blacks in the field and the whites have been the ones in the "superior" position for hundreds of years and that doesn't turn off overnight. There's also another issue of empathy, where people generally aren't very good at empathizing with different people that look different or live different lives, which, when combined, is exactly why a white cop says, "aw shucks, you kids stop breaking windows and move along" to white kids, versus, "GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND" to black kids. Different is scary, that's a hard coded self-preservation reality that comes from the fact that we're still animals. It's going to take another millennia before we get that right, if we make it that long.

It's a tough pill to swallow, but I'll tell you what I don't believe, which is that the issue is as simple as white cops coming down harder on black kids. Even though white cops do come down harder on black kids and it'd be nice to think that's the end, people are actually fucking over black kids by ignoring the history fueled reality of the socioeconomics that lead to an increase in crime.

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Very well said. I think that I am not 100% on what you consider 'crime'.

I know that might sound troll-y of me, but it does matter because I would argue that we really don't have any actual clue of the amount of 'crime' in vast regions of our traditionally white areas because there is not enough police coverage to actually have it recorded.

For example, how many kids do you think have taken their dads gun out and popped off a few shots in rural America, and how many of those kids get a record vs kids doing the same in the city. Or domestic violence in a area with no neighbors vs block housing getting the cops called on them. On and on.

mooray said:

If a person can't acknowledge that blacks have been held to higher rates of poverty and that poverty leads to crime, just because they're too scared to say that blacks commit more crime, then they're condemning blacks to continue living disproportionately difficult lives for who knows how many more generations.

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So here if I follow through with what I was saying, I would not be willing to say that 'blacks commit more crime', but I would be willing to say that 'black people are much more likely to be charged for a crime'.

Again I am not trolling you, just kind of brainstorming. Like you said it is not easy, and people who have these conversations do open themselves up to trolling. Which is why it is so important to understand the attack on our society when having this kind of conversation online and be ready with ignoring people that derail them.

mooray said:

The nation needs a therapy session, just say the shit aloud so we can fiiiiiiiinally work on it for realsies this time.

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Defiantly.

mooray said:

Same goes for the racists, just say the dumb shit out loud so we can talk about it, because Trump has shown us what happens when people keep it hidden.

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It gets weaponized and used to divide us up.

mooray said:

And for the cops, if we can't truly fix the empathy problem for a thousand years, then a stop gap bandaid is getting more black cops in black neighborhoods, bonus points if they got into a little trouble as kids.

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I think technology will get us past this. It is too easy to have outside eyes on situations now to not utilize it and have people who are in real time helping the decisions being made with better surveillance coupled with non-police responses for everything that doesn't require a armed response.

mooray said:

Anyway, lots to say and it's such a sensitive topic that I really didn't even want to type this out, because I don't always nail exactly what I mean through my fingers and things come off wrong and people get spun up. Better to discuss real human issues in person over a joint-beer combo.

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I appreciate you doing it. Like you said this is a real issue and I am willing to say something stupid (unintentionally/naively) to have the conversation too.

It is of course impossible to know you are not just being trolled into having the conversation when doing it online, and that sucks, but there is no way around that one in a forum like this. Which is a totally different issue, which is why your joint-beer combo in person is always the way to go, but unfortunately the actual variability in people's experiences in those situations are sadly usually pretty low.

Bud if there's anyone here I wouldn't consider troll'ish, it's yourself. No ugly personal attacks, dissect posts with information, you got it down, imo.

I get your point about taking shots in rural America and that probably does nullify a certain percentage of the crime that I had in mind, which would be a fun digression to try and put a nullification percentage to that. I still think that there are two inescapable facts; a well proven relationship between poverty and crime, plus white people holding back the economic growth of black people. If there were a pie chart, I still say that's the largest slice and that if you wanted to work on the bulk of it, that's where the focus goes.

So I don't see it as either/or, between committing more crime and being more likely to be charged, it's both, imo. Trying to put percentages to them would be tough, but I'd start with 50/50 and then let various points push one way or another from there, but my guess is it'd likely be back and forth and end up at the same spot.

Yeah you're right about the technology, it does help A LOT with awareness. I was thinking about it afterwards and was thinking that maybe this is just the process, as in, the Matthew Shepard's out there need to die in order to get the necessary change. Maybe the long less-painful route doesn't end up where we want and the direct bloody path does. I dunno there.

mooray said:

Bud if there's anyone here I wouldn't consider troll'ish, it's yourself. No ugly personal attacks, dissect posts with information, you got it down, imo.

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Thanks, it is hard for me to tell a lot of the time, so I just assume I am being a dick.

mooray said:

I get your point about taking shots in rural America and that probably does nullify a certain percentage of the crime that I had in mind, which would be a fun digression to try and put a nullification percentage to that. I still think that there are two inescapable facts; a well proven relationship between poverty and crime, plus white people holding back the economic growth of black people. If there were a pie chart, I still say that's the largest slice and that if you wanted to work on the bulk of it, that's where the focus goes.

So I don't see it as either/or, between committing more crime and being more likely to be charged, it's both, imo. Trying to put percentages to them would be tough, but I'd start with 50/50 and then let various points push one way or another from there, but my guess is it'd likely be back and forth and end up at the same spot.

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Also too I think about stealing as a kid from a store in the city vs rural area where everyone knows everyone else too. Fights, child abuse, theft, on and on. Rural areas are so much less likely to get charged for anything, which means more people get out of childhood without a record, and that helps keep poverty (having a record hurts job opportunities too) less likely too.

mooray said:

Yeah you're right about the technology, it does help A LOT with awareness. I was thinking about it afterwards and was thinking that maybe this is just the process, as in, the Matthew Shepard's out there need to die in order to get the necessary change. Maybe the long less-painful route doesn't end up where we want and the direct bloody path does. I dunno there.

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It sucks that we are not a more proactive species.

"the good old days when everybody could just settle their differences by fighting it out" god damn but that was a dumb line.

However, agree with @mooray that the subject on criminal activities, violent crime, arrests, convictions, race, economic deprivation and racism is complex (I mean, duh)

But people are able to piece it out and put together a coherent discussion even for complex subjects.

Like this one:


Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Crime and Criminal Justice in the United States

Research on race and crime has become a growth industry in the United States. For much of this century, studies have poured forth on racial differences in delinquency, crime, victimization, and, most of all, criminal justice processing. To take but one example, racial differences in sentencing have captured the attention of numerous journal articles, books, meta-analyses, and a panel of the National Academy of Sciences (among others, see reviews in Kleck 1981; Hagan and Bumiller 1983; Petersilia 1985).

The volume of research has not gone hand in hand with dispassionate scholarly debate. The topic of race and crime still rankles, fueling ideologically charged discussions over competing schools of thought such as discrimination versus differential involvement, cultures of violence versus structural inequality, and empiricism versus critical theory. Some argue that bringing empirical data to bear on the race and crime question is itself evidence of racism

The sheer volume of research makes a review of empirical studies impossible in one essay, and the political climate suggests a no-win substantive outcome as well. In addition, many important questions remain unanswered either because we lack the necessary data or because results are conflicting across alternative forms of measurement. Recognizing these perils, we nonetheless tackle the topic of race, ethnicity, and crime in the United States by focusing on four general questions: What are the key empirical findings on race, ethnicity, and crime? What are the most promising theoretical explanations? What are the major limitations of both research and theory? and Where do we go from here?

The review comes from Harvard, was published in 1997 and runs 66 pages. Yes, it is complex. Yes, the data from one study often contradicts data in other studies. But the authors do a fair job of piecing together results from studies going back to the 1940's to help draw conclusions.

When I read the paper, I came away with this summary:

US white society, through their systematic mistreatment of Black people, created the "Black crime problem". Then racist whites blamed Black people for being Black, threw away the key and washed their hands of the matter.