Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

Look at this piece of art....

Peak at reds ,somewhere between 620-640..say 630 nm....
Easy ,slope to greens ,with a short flattening at yellow-green 560-540...
Nice..Plenty of those ,too...
At 480 is the lowest gap (cyan-green) 30% +/- of relative power..
Not so bad....
Blue peak at 455 +/- ,with the overall power at blue ,to seem at lower than
10%....(have to count little boxes on graph..)
(total surface of "blues" at diagram)
...
range 720-740 nm at 20% dropping to 10 % ,of relative power ..
But because of close range ( 20nm ) difference ,the overall flux is
Small...
It seems enough ,though...

Nice baby...

At 150° ...

Perfect angle , for a light cone ,of " directional " oranges/reds & far reds..
Greens/blues diffuse anyway much easier....

Yummy..

100 of these ....(@350mA)..?
Oohhh....
Distirbuted , nice & close ,over 3' x 3' ( 1m^2 ..Right ? ) of SCROG'd leaf canopy ? ..
....
Ooooohhhh...yay!

...Ohhh....
For sure ,they have the power to grow babies ,under their light...
...
Let alone to be accompanied ,by 60 x Neutrals,40x cools & 40x 630s'....
It's more than enough light power ,for that area...

(It can be also 100 warms,60 neutrals,20 cools,40 reds ,10 blues and 10 violets/uva ,
for what is worth...But ,small steps at a time...)....

...
Expensive sport...
D@mn it..

PetFlora said:

SDS what's up with adding 630s? Seems to be more than enough in wws, no?

Click to expand...

You might be just right,about that...
Maybe they are too much..
Maybe no...

That's one of the many , small details,we haven't still,solved out completely..
-Stoners,you see...He-he-he...-
Many of them...
Way too many...(Maybe..)


But ,anyway,it does not seem to have any adverse effects ,regarding growing ( as observed and only...)..

But,yes..
Is this peak ,really needed ?
What if instead of 4 reds were 4 more warms....?

Which ultimately ,brings us to the bottom question...

Red 630's or Warm Whites ?

...
I give up...

400 Watt HID Power at one end ...
132 Watt LED Power at the other..

1st Week of flowering ..
Sneak-peeking,from another journal...




At least for vegging...:
Nothing to be jealous of approx 4x HID Power...
Maybe even, a bit more compact ,with larger ,healthier leaves,those grown under leds...

Crappy asian leds ,used...
Crappy no-name cc drivers ,used...
Crappy MCPCBs', used...
No 650s',660s',670s',680s' or F.reds ,used...
No added lenses ,used...
Passive coolling, used....
A lot of team-work,commitment,love & brotherhood,used...
A lot of "dry plant material ",used....
A lot of a fool's, stardusty,fantasy -& Ego,oohhh yes! -,also used....



......
Now,the good part starts,for those 132 Watt..
..
He-he..

Which ones are doing better, in your opinion?
They look about the same from the pics.

Well,I 'm not close to the plants..
Can't really tell..
With the brothers,we live 250km away..
We speak on the phone,though...
One of them ,says that the smell is something ,beyond belief...
And that they grow,really fast...

From the pics ,I can observe the softer and bigger leaves...
...
Dunno...
They seem more bushy...
More lush...

Bluezdude or Ganja2 ,can really answer to your question..

....
Guys ?

stardustsailor said:

You might be just right,about that...
Maybe they are too much..
Maybe no...

That's one of the many , small details,we haven't still,solved out completely..
-Stoners,you see...He-he-he...-
Many of them...
Way too many...(Maybe..)


But ,anyway,it does not seem to have any adverse effects ,regarding growing ( as observed and only...)..

Click to expand...

Gently Dude, You are going to wind up with a breakdown if you start second guessing like that - take a leaf out of another's book and test. chill and test. It is pretty clear that the 400w is growing more plant, the LED is growing really nice plant.
Take a toke, relax, you are not going to win if you are worrying about 4 LED in an 24 LED array. May I gently try and suggest that you do some more extreme tests. I would like to see a plant grown under 24x 3000k lights for flowering, I would like to see them vegging under a bunch of 5000k. This is irrelevant.
There are so very many other variables on your tests that the science part of your brain is screaming NO but the stoner part is worrying about whether you have 4 Reds that produce 100% 630nm or warm whites that produce only 50% 630nm as well as a bunch of stuff that Ed Rosenthal thinks may be cool but ain't willing to say how cool...
I am Ignoring PAR and comparing HID to LED
When you think about it if a 3W warm white @3000k gives out 160-170Lm then to compare you need 30000/165Lm (HID compared to LED) Ie: 180 little diodes. Now you can offset all blue or all red for some of these but if you have 24*6 = 144 LED then maybe you are going to rock well over 75% of the output of HID, if so you will win.
At this stage all you are doing is tweaking the formula but you cannot make a change without a harvest in between.

Gently Dude, You are going to wind up with a breakdown if you start second guessing like that - take a leaf out of another's book and test. chill and test. It is pretty clear that the 400w is growing more plant, the LED is growing really nice plant.

Click to expand...

Oh,Jahulath,please specify, in a bit more details ,what do you mean by " pretty clear " ?
Well from pics in fact ,leds seem to grow more plant....
Either by Watts used...
Or by Watts /Area distirbuted...
Or by canopy Surface/ Watts...
...
All these being, also relative,as I differ no to you..
I'm just looking,also,only at some photos....

Take a toke, relax, you are not going to win if you are worrying about 4 LED in an 24 LED array. May I gently try and suggest that you do some more extreme tests. I would like to see a plant grown under 24x 3000k lights for flowering, I would like to see them vegging under a bunch of 5000k. This is irrelevant.

Click to expand...

This is a very nice idea !
Flowering under Warm Whites only,uh ?
Not bad..
And "trim" ,if needed....
Not bad ,at all...
Excellent idea..
You're right ...

There are so very many other variables on your tests that the science part of your brain is screaming NO but the stoner part is worrying about whether you have 4 Reds that produce 100% 630nm or warm whites that produce only 50% 630nm as well as a bunch of stuff that Ed Rosenthal thinks may be cool but ain't willing to say how cool...

Click to expand...

Meaning ?
Ohh..Help me a bit...
Losing you here...

I am Ignoring PAR and comparing HID to LED
When you think about it if a 3W warm white @3000k gives out 160-170Lm then to compare you need 30000/165Lm (HID compared to LED) Ie: 180 little diodes.

Click to expand...

Whow,brother...
Jahulath ,you're starting all wrong....
Forget Lumens...
Plants don't measure light by lumens ...
....
You asked for babbling....
Well,here you are..

1 Watt of light flux with ideal actinic spectra at 555 nm (green )
is 683 lumens (photometric - measuring light as we humans perceive it by our vision and its limitations....)

-That is the theoritical limit of lm/Watt ...
One cannot sense more light ,than 683 lm / Watt flux ,at max..
And thats on green only....
Why on green ..?

Because inside our eyes ,at the back there is the sensor of light...
For color vision it has 3 kinds of "sensor pixels"
Those which sense blue..
Those which sense red ..
And those for green...
Combined "stimulation" gives different "colors" stimulus...
The blues are few...Very few...
The reds are the most..
Followed by the greens...
But ,then,why we see better on green,when we have more sensors for red... ?
'Cause red from light ,gets absorbed to a percentage,by the water ,of our eyeballs ..filling ,and lenses of them .....
So ...We(our vision is ..) are sensitive,to green...
The more green in white light..
The more lumens value,that has....
Simple,said...)

1 Watt of light flux with ideal actinic spectra at 630 nm (red )
is approx 270 lm lumens ...

1 Watt of light flux with ideal actinic spectra at 450 nm (blue )
is 60 lumens ....
Together 330 lm ..
2 Watts of flux....

Green is one Watt and 680 lm....

Which one would you choose ?
magenta (2 Watts red+blue) 330 lm or Green (1 Watt ) 680 lumen ?
HPS have a lot of green ..
That's why they beat leds on Lm / Watt (of electrical power used )

HPS 400 W =58.000 lm = 145 lm /Watt
Warm Led 400 W = 32.000 lm = 80 lm/Watt ...

But on Real radiometric power..
What plants,really see ....

Hps 400 Watt =120 Watt Flux = 0,3 W / W electric
400 Watt Leds 0.400mW = 160 Watt flux =0.4 Watt / W electric...

So ..In fact, in case of i.e. warm whites ,at same wattage with HPS ,they overpower the hps ,by 133,33 % (40 Watts more flux light power..)
Plus that leds,don't roast the plant(s)....

Lost Thought...
No reward,given to the finder...
Finders-keepers..:
Theoritical lumens limit of white leds... ?
What if in the future we'll have a led with 100 % radiometric efficiency ?
One Watt ellectric power to 1 watt of light flux...
Lumens unit,has to have a limit there....
Isn't so ?
...
How exactly the industry makes a led more" bright " ?
Ohhh,I'm sure there are more than a couple of ways....
What is the easiest ,I wonder ....
The one,"cost-effective"...
Hmmm....

Now you can offset all blue or all red for some of these but if you have 24*6 = 144 LED then maybe you are going to rock well over 75% of the output of HID, if so you will win.
At this stage all you are doing is tweaking the formula but you cannot make a change without a harvest in between.

Click to expand...

if ...crappy is 300mW .....
144 *0.3=43.2 Watts...

Hps has 120 Watts...
But where has 'em...?
Peaks On infra reds,orange,green,yellows....

Let us ,find out,if we need lean horsepower wherever..
Or...
More selectively placed,lower power...

From the 120 flux Watts of HPS....
How many of them, are used effectively for P ?
Are they used effectively regarding spatial power distirbution ?
Can they be outperformed by less than half...(more to 1/3 )?

Maybe not...
Probably not...

But then again,against all odds...
One may just, never know...
...
Oh,well..We'll find out...

(More than that...My claim is that you need 9 to 12 panels for 1m^2 - like hps 400 Watt-..
So ,I really suppose that 10 of them make up for a 400 Watt Hps...Not Six...
The other group,are just being....nuts...!!!..But still...One,may never know...)

K.I.S.S
Maybe shotgun method???
http://www.cree.com/led-components-and-modules/products/xlamp/discrete-directional/~/media/Files/Cree/LED Components and Modules/XLamp/Data and Binning/XLampXPE2.pdf

There are 7 different flavors of white here.
Why not just sweep the band in a number of different ways?
How many runs would it take to explore the possibilities? (from educated guesses/dumb luck)
Tune the light like you would adjust the tone on the stereo.

i think it's kind of early to be sure about the flowering results but because i see the specific plants every day, i can tell you that the grow is almost the same comparing hid light..
hps though runs 400 watts and LED panels run at 132 watt.. please note here that the grow room is bigger than it should be.. so + for the panels.. i am 400wat grower for some years now, so i think i know how hps works on plants.. the i=one thing i can really ensure you is the smell difference.... the plants under the leds, are starting to smell way too earlier..

and from my grow that runs now (400 hps along with 2 panels 44 watt total) i can clearly see that all the buds are close to the panels are maturing sooner... maybe a week sooner?. we'll see... i'll post pics here to show the difference..

I 've posted some of your grow also ,I think...
If I've understood correctly ,who you might be ,brother....
Kisses to the 4legged beauty,wearing glasses...

That is exactly what I was looking for.
Thank you so much!

So if I may, let me sum it up this way.
Both sets of plants are about the same size, but they show different characteristics or morphology?

tenthirty said:

K.I.S.S
Maybe shotgun method???
http://www.cree.com/led-components-and-modules/products/xlamp/discrete-directional/~/media/Files/Cree/LED Components and Modules/XLamp/Data and Binning/XLampXPE2.pdf

There are 7 different flavors of white here.
Why not just sweep the band in a number of different ways?
How many runs would it take to explore the possibilities? (from educated guesses/dumb luck)
Tune the light like you would adjust the tone on the stereo.

Click to expand...

Well,if you're asking me....
While,I really much like the spectral curve of the Cree cools....
I do prefer ,the warms of Osram Oslon SSL 150 series..
Much ..."bulkier" Warm spectral curve...
Maybe,only my idea...
Just saying,anyway,my opinion..
...
Shotgun ?
What do you mean ?
All of them ?
Not bad ,I think...

But ,I can guess ,the wider/bulkier,the overall curve of the Neutrals ,the better..
The wider the blue peak in cools ,the better...
Same goes with the warm curve,in Warms...

i'll give her...

Maybe the wave form has just as much importance as the spectrum?

tenthirty said:

Maybe the wave form has just as much importance as the spectrum?

Click to expand...

Dear Tenthirty:

Specify,please (I really,do begin to like this word...) what do you mean by referring to "Waveform" and to what when referring to "spectrum"....
...
Spectrum - Spectra is the graphical representation of how,-in what wave form - the power of light,is 'dispersed' relatively to every nm.....
Anyway...

Babbling...

Click to expand...

I'll try not to sound so ,@ssholish,nerd....

The plants..Well...They-in a way of speaking-"expect" to " sense" (and react if needed, accordingly...) ,
variations both in quantity ( flux power/irradiance -ppf*ppd-) and quality (Waveform,spectum) of light...
Both those light characteristics change during the day....(And \not only..Ehh ..)

If for 45 min. ,say,the sky,became cloudy,irradiance levels drop sharply.....(Quantity change..)

When the day ends ,far red radiation is more than red .....(Quality change)

Thing is....

That C3 higher plants ,do not seem to have ,so ...how should I put it ? ....
" touchy " / " sensitive" mechanisms to light quantity changes....
They do not seem to respond dramatically
(meaning rapidly and with "fierce_so_to_be_ efficacious " reactions =specific or general biochemical activity /metabolism ),
to rather prolonged and/or great light power changes.....


From the other hand....
That doesn't seem to apply for quality of light....
Any small,sudden change ( or worse if prolonged ) can trigger a wide variety of different dramatic ,one can say,reactions ....

So,though they seem to P (photosynthesise ) using ,probably,the photon power of most of, visible for us ,light ,but "sensing" abnormalities (?... )
to how power is "dispersed", lot of things can happen....

'Cause thats how they sense (better than if they had used the quantity of light,to do the same...) with incredible precision,
many things...(Time of the year,time of day,position on planet,ect...)
Things,that are crucial for the survival and multiplication of plant's species....
They sense when its spring -so for the seedlings to emerge from ground,when to flower,if they are set on high altitude,ect...


And it's rather much more precise,for plants, to sense(and measure..) the day duration,using the spectral qualities of light ,rather its quantity.
...
A sudden change in quantity ,caused randomly,by a cloud ,
or the slow-paced take-over of another plant's canopy,
both for example,could have had create the wrong stimulus..
The wrong 'signal',info,data,whateva...
So...

They do not measure how strong is the light, i.e. to flower..
.......
They do not need strong light to flower....
Saties in natural habitat,as wild plants ,are exposed to x2
-or in most cases x3-the power of what Indies are exposed to...
But Indies give x2-x3 ,the dry yield of Saties...
Uhhh?
See ? ....

(Tip through question : Guess what F@(ks things up .........He-he-he....)
..........
They measure how much FR has in it...

And by the same 'sensor' (Phytochrome" ),they measure also darkness duration -
-by the (some ,a x% ) breaking down of Pfr & the (some,a y% )reversion to Pr....-


If your light has some FR "in it" ..... During the "day-time" ,a phytochrome reversion of Pfr=> Pr takes place,also...
Not only Pr=>Pfr....
So,that means less Pfr to be broken down and reversed to Pr state,during "dark hours"..
....
If you still remain in a stable cycle of 12/12 and you don't deviate from it...

...If proven finally , to be too much of FR (720-750) at the "mix" ,you get a heavy but really short flowering....
(fast maturing...The plant senses that winter ,is coming fast...)

-Like in nature at some places..5 months veg-2 months flowering...
Other-Warmer- places, have almost stable 12/12 all year round...
....
So time,can F#(k things up....There is also something ,else....Worse,than that....He-he-he...

To match up, with your added FR radiation ,either you'd have to add 660-680 light (and ΦΑΚ everything up ,maybe) ,
or either you should deviate(from 'stable' light schedule) to something like 14 hours light / 10 hours darkness..
....
Which...Yes....
Can increase yields by a X% factor (Depending-not only,though- on how many more light hours ,plant gained...)..
But ,it means not only ,with precision, tweaking your light source..It means also,tweaking your illumination schedule...
Are we there yet ?
Probably, 'no' ,is the better answer... ...
All together ,humble : Noooooo! .......
.....
To continue babbling a bit more about that crucial-yet to be fully understood- photoreceptor ( Phytochrome )& it's mechanism....
And because repetition is the mother of learning....

When a plant gets shaded .....
(from another plant's canopy i.e....
There is a difference if its a .i.e .black tent....
I think you 'll understand which is the difference,between them....
In modern greenhouse agriculture,with utilising colored films/nets ,they are filtering out selected wl,from sunlight.....

What happens ?
- No more orange/red direct light...Only far red ...
( the R / FR ratio of light changes...More FR....{ R=650-680 nm FR=720-750 nm } )

-Overall Power flux( meaning Irradiance,also) drops...
-Green light is more in power....(-from light that refracts through the leaves of other plant..)

...Okkkkkeeyyyyyy..And ?

Well ,even if the overall power of light flux has dropped ,the shaded leaves still are active photosynthetically..
By time, and if the "pressure" still exists-the leaves will become more productive to blue that is dispersed anyhow.
.And.available green/yellow ,of course...
And nowdays,they suspect also at FR !!! For photosynthesis !! Maybe...Who knows ?..It's survival,what we are dealing with,afterall....

*****For Short-Day Flowering Plants,only :

The increased FR light ,will cause among others:

Faster flowering and / or maturing(to increase the possibilities of the species to survive...)..

Streching .. aka Stem elongation...-Meaning..
It produces more, new biomass between nodes...
All the resources are spend rapidly to trunk / stem mass.
If roots fail to cover,the rather big, demands,material ( N-P-K-Car.Hydrates ) from older leaves is removed to become ...stem .
(sudden yellowing of fan leaves that usually accompanies sudden elongations,
caused of low light ,of high Temps or sudden Pr/Pfr ratio changes .. As on 24/0 => 12/12, in one single day... ...

The root/shoot ratio changes in favor to root production...
(getting tallerrrr,don't forget.Have to "withstand" more weight at more height(more wind....)
Also ...no/few new 'shoots'.aka "new growth " ...=nodes=branches+leaves=flowers=yield)
....
And many more...
These are enough....
Disaster ! If in a growroom.....

So plant is getting taller......
But still makes food(energy=yield),from shaded leaves.
But...

Ah....But-but-but.....
What ...
...
What if the other plant,finally, "wins" over ...?
(the "pressure"-change of light quality,remember ? Too much FR,from prolonged darkness/shadow....Or from light ...He-he...)
What ,if ...
The shadow ,persists for prolonged(?) time period ....?

Then,one way or another,the plant ,it's going to lose, big part of shaded canopy...
So..
On to streching...

Inside the Plant Control center..Somewhere..:

-Sacrifice most, of the anyway lost,old leaves ,
to overcome the "pressure"...(-The other,shadding , plant- )
Quickly ,to overcome it..
We shall make new leaves & nodes ,later on...
Send the roots deeper...
Warm up the flowering....
Now ,all we need is stem.And because,you never know...Flowers...

Click to expand...

Old Fatty Nasty Leaves:
-Yes,sir ! Consider it, already done ....
Ave , Morituri,te salutant !
(Latin phrase .Gladiators at Roman Empire times, used to ..sing it,before the .."sports" begun :
"Hi there...Those who are about to be fertiliser,salute you..."
The Native American Indians ,just say : "Hoka Hey",isn't so ?

Click to expand...

...
And they die...
For the new shoot ( & the rest of the plant ,along with..),to live and see better days....
...
Green ,is suspected-also yet, for the actual mechanism to be fully understood- that
co-operates at this case with FR ,and Shade Avoidance Syndrome biological mechanisms/procedures start....
The leaf stalks become longer so to stick out of the rest ,the leaves larger in total surface area to collect more light
and thinner to allow low light to refract to the leaves ,underneath... And some more....

So.
.....
So....
Messing,at extreme levels , with spectral quality of light.....
?

Uhh...

Do not like ,so much the idea..

What happens "outta there" ,in nature,it can happen-the same almost exact thing with one green led & one FR led..
Placed ,where they shouldn't have been...
Lensed & close placed ,would've made things even worse ,considering possibilities of reaction,from plant...
Making the plant ,react ,to an unexisting shading plant...
They ..."feel " with colors....
Yes....Plants ,feel ,"see" ,understand,react,ect with colored light...
That's it...
Thanx,bro,for asking ,first place...

'''
"Light is both the energy source,for higher plants, but also a complex ability of interaction with the enviroment."
Me.
.....
How 's that ?

Anyway.....
Adverse effects is the most usual thing to notice,in most of cases....
660 ?
670
?680 ?
730 ?
740 ?
Too much blue ?
Which blue ?
Green ?
Violets ?

Things, will become stardusty,now....

Do we "speak" the same .."language"...?
With light,probably=> (referring to some of you ) or
definately =>(refering to me ,my ego & many other nutcases like me ,probably exceeding me...Pheww!.)
we can " communicate " with plants..(they give back light also...?...Eh ? ..Ahaa!!!!..)
Do we have full knowledge of the language ?
......

Still ,there is much ,that I don't know for the use of 660 leds,for example.........
I know that they've messed up, couple grows of mine...
....
I've tried to say :

"Hello ..What a nice red ..With lots of crispy-yummy photons..Do you see what daddy,does for you ?
Now.....Please give daddy, a kilo of buds..Pleaaaaaaseeeeee..Mooch..Moooochhhhh."kiss-ass

Click to expand...

.....
And ..
( Of course...)
The plant responded :

...Yuck Fou...

Click to expand...

....Must've been chinese or something...
Reaction to asian-made leds ? Think so ?

No !
I must've said something in a reaaallyyy bad manner ...
Didn't say enough " please".... (720-750 ? ) ????

Would that have been enough...?
What about "Who 's the boss,here ? "
(Blue.....)
...Who knows ?
It reacts with "I want " ..( 660 )...He-he-he...(I'm totally nuts!!! )
...
....

So ..
I never will say " 660 nm" to my plants,ever again...

(Ok ..I don't take an oath,about it...)
Not by it's shelf ,at least.....
(Hey..I've learned few words,Haven't I ? )
...
....
So,until I know for sure,how & if, they can be used..
I'll stick to the mixing of whites..
With a touch of 630s...
(Maybe they are not needed ,too...
But,they seem ,contributing..)

But then..
How I'm going to find out about 660s',if I'll stick to the whites ?
I give up....

And before I do that...

...
....
I can be " funny " ,if I want to ....
No apologies needed...
I've long before,forgiven myshelf,too...

Marc55Mo said:

• The photo I'm showing is from a mate's grow who's also trying out the same panels with different spectrum.​
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

Click to expand...

Can't see anything...

Ohhh,my sick ,poor lady..
( Yes you,my lady ..You and your few and sh!tty ,660 nm shaped ,leaves....)
....
The whole air smells of, your led buds....
...
...

Led powered,small feast for the eyes...
Under 66 Watts ..
Whites are saving the day...
At least,I'm givin' 'em,all the credit ,for trying to....