Back Cross/Selfing ?!?!

maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
I have a few fem packs coming in...

I wanna pop all 10 of the beans in one of them asap...

lets say I find a few that are nice and I reverse them and keep the pollen while also letting them self themselves...

so ill have S1's of all the ones I let pollinate themselves...

so my real question is...

is it selfing or back crossing or just making a sib F1 if I was to take the pollen I store from the reversed females and then pollinate the other clones/sisters/phenos that I also reversed?

would they be BX1's or F1's? I can't seem to find anything that helps me clarify this...

I feel like its not a back cross bc I wouldn't be crossing it back to the original parent as I don't have them...

so I would be crossing them with their siblings so is that just an F1 or F2? but no haha fuck im confused

let me know if that makes sense im kinda high and talking/thinking about genetics gets wild sometimes for me
lol
 
maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
basically my plan is

I have 10 of the citradellic sunset

I plan on popping them... and reversing desirables...
taking the pollen and pollenating their siblings...

I still can't comprehend what that would make the generations that result from the reversed sibling pollination
R2s?
F1s?
BX1s?
 
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maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
J
Budzbuddha said:
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I appreciate the contribution, yet i still feel confused lol

What I get from the above is they are saying that back crossing is reversing a single mom to either pollinate herself or a clone of herself to make a BX1 which I get.

but what I’m looking to do is reverse a single mom and pollenate one of her sisters (also herself for more fun too) and so is that still a back cross or would that make it something else?

or am I missing something really obvious

in essence I’m going to do this to citradellic sunset. The parents of citradellic sunset are ghost train haze and mandarin sunset.
The seeds I get from the pack I assume will be R1 or a BX1 offspring from a cut Colin liked...

if I take those seeds and find a variation or two that I like and then reverse them and take that pollen and pollenate their sisters/eachother, what would that generation be.
 
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maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
dbz said:
This should be enlightening.

www.genetics.org

The Genomes of Recombinant Inbred Lines

Recombinant inbred lines (RILs) can serve as powerful tools for genetic mapping. Recently, members of the Complex Trait Consortium proposed the development of a large panel of eight-way RILs in the mouse, derived from eight genetically diverse parental strains. Such a panel would be a valuable...
www.genetics.org www.genetics.org

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The rabbit hole of genetics
 
xtsho

xtsho

Well-Known Member
dbz said:
This should be enlightening.

www.genetics.org

The Genomes of Recombinant Inbred Lines

Recombinant inbred lines (RILs) can serve as powerful tools for genetic mapping. Recently, members of the Complex Trait Consortium proposed the development of a large panel of eight-way RILs in the mouse, derived from eight genetically diverse parental strains. Such a panel would be a valuable...
www.genetics.org www.genetics.org

View attachment 4800103
Click to expand...
I've read that paper and my head still hurts.
 
maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
Lol
I understand but it still for some reason doesn’t help me figure this out...

I have R1 seeds.
I pop R1 seeds.
I reverse one and pollenate one of her sisters (not herself)
The resulting seeds would be R2?
Or F1?
Or??
Is not S or R (self/reverse) bc I’m not talking about seeds that would result from her pollenating herself.
It’s not a BX (back cross) bc I wouldn’t be taking the pollen and pollenating the grandparent.

so that leaves me thinking it would be the same as if I was to take male pollen from another plant and pollenate aka creating an “F1”

I just want to know what I would call that generation of seeds.

if anyone knows.
 
BBQtoast

BBQtoast

Well-Known Member
Is it not closer to a P1 or Parental generation.

If that's not right I can actually click on Google not guess.

My thinking is your essentially making two plants from a parent and breeding that cross.
 
dbz

dbz

Well-Known Member
maranibbana said:
Lol
I understand but it still for some reason doesn’t help me figure this out...

I have R1 seeds.
I pop R1 seeds.
I reverse one and pollenate one of her sisters (not herself)
The resulting seeds would be R2?
Or F1?
Or??
Is not S or R (self/reverse) bc I’m not talking about seeds that would result from her pollenating herself.
It’s not a BX (back cross) bc I wouldn’t be taking the pollen and pollenating the grandparent.

so that leaves me thinking it would be the same as if I was to take male pollen from another plant and pollenate aka creating an “F1”

I just want to know what I would call that generation of seeds.

if anyone knows.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I was trying to post what essentially breeding s1 and s2 etc. The second filial selfed generation i believe would be s2. This is when you generally get into ril and IBL lines. These generally aren't presented the same as F1 as usually F1s are the result of a male and female. Then F1s to F2s and perhaps some backcrossing to lock one in.
RIL and IBL projects tend to involve more generations to select and stabilize.
Basically when you use the recurrent parent to breed you end up with a subsequent sequential marker to your generation. F1-F2, S1-S2. Usually when you are selfing your ideal is to reproduce a parent in a stable way through RIL iBL.
 
BBQtoast

BBQtoast

Well-Known Member
I checked, it got very complicated, most of the problems come from definition:

First you take ten beans, no genetic definition, F1, F2, ibl, S3 who really knows. You would have to give a designation.

Next you need to give the first S1 definition, you mixing seeds or labeling each plant and line. Are they S1 from plant 1 2 3.....10? We could say S1 from plant 2 was a keeper.

Now which pollen are you using? Plant 4's or another. You would just be doing a backcross using the plant 2's pollen in the above scenario.

Backcross can define two very similar genetics not just it's parent, it's parent is the better cross but we can be loose here if the lines satisfy a stable strain generally and in the wild as in ibl. Ibl we can be loose with, you could argue your creating or starting that type of line.

So for ease let plant two S1 cross with plant three pollen, S2, a backcross bx1, ibl if it's stable.

That's complicated but this is not the most desirable position to be in, what you do with them will surely produce a line, any more in crossing and S or bx would prefix, out crossing would make an F1 and this from the P1 generation the S1 becomes.

Somehow you have to select traits and desirables which takes a few generations breeding, all you could have is some breeders sloppy work hashed up by crosses you did that didn't produce very stable generations which unless your interested wouldn't resemble breeding of the f s or bx kind that comes with a lot of work.
 
maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
dbz said:
Sorry, I was trying to post what essentially breeding s1 and s2 etc. The second filial selfed generation i believe would be s2. This is when you generally get into ril and IBL lines. These generally aren't presented the same as F1 as usually F1s are the result of a male and female. Then F1s to F2s and perhaps some backcrossing to lock one in.
RIL and IBL projects tend to involve more generations to select and stabilize.
Basically when you use the recurrent parent to breed you end up with a subsequent sequential marker to your generation. F1-F2, S1-S2. Usually when you are selfing your ideal is to reproduce a parent in a stable way through RIL iBL.
Click to expand...
No I appreciate you sharing and need to read more in depth there. Lots of info.
 
maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
BBQtoast said:
I checked, it got very complicated, most of the problems come from definition:

First you take ten beans, no genetic definition, F1, F2, ibl, S3 who really knows. You would have to give a designation.

Next you need to give the first S1 definition, you mixing seeds or labeling each plant and line. Are they S1 from plant 1 2 3.....10? We could say S1 from plant 2 was a keeper.

Now which pollen are you using? Plant 4's or another. You would just be doing a backcross using the plant 2's pollen in the above scenario.

Backcross can define two very similar genetics not just it's parent, it's parent is the better cross but we can be loose here if the lines satisfy a stable strain generally and in the wild as in ibl. Ibl we can be loose with, you could argue your creating or starting that type of line.

So for ease let plant two S1 cross with plant three pollen, S2, a backcross bx1, ibl if it's stable.

That's complicated but this is not the most desirable position to be in, what you do with them will surely produce a line, any more in crossing and S or bx would prefix, out crossing would make an F1 and this from the P1 generation the S1 becomes.

Somehow you have to select traits and desirables which takes a few generations breeding, all you could have is some breeders sloppy work hashed up by crosses you did that didn't produce very stable generations which unless your interested wouldn't resemble breeding of the f s or bx kind that comes with a lot of work.
Click to expand...
Hmmm okay so we are talking ibl/bx area unless I of course just self them and make them S1

I’d be working with ethos so far he seems to breed pretty stable so I just wanna mess around and find something nice and stabilize it and make seed stock possibly for self
 
BBQtoast

BBQtoast

Well-Known Member
maranibbana said:
Hmmm okay so we are talking ibl/bx area unless I of course just self them and make them S1

I’d be working with ethos so far he seems to breed pretty stable so I just wanna mess around and find something nice and stabilize it and make seed stock possibly for self
Click to expand...
I think I'm saying what DBZ is saying.

Conclusion is call them what you think is best, I'd use S1 for both making a S2 cross or bx1 backcross. Point is they will go into be something else, S2 S3 F1 F2 P1 P2 ibl depending on what you do and how easy they play genetics with you.

Think longer and hope for the best, there is no real fail, every generation will get you fucking baked, still winning.
 
maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
for everyone Here I leave this..

happy breeding! <3

Technical Terms regarding breeding

Found this at another site and thought I would share it with the forum members Terminology for STS breeding: STS: Silver thiosulfate, a salt compound used in photography. In plants, silver interferes with, or locks out, copper, which is a necessary micronutrient. Making copper unavilable...
www.marijuanapassion.com www.marijuanapassion.com
 
maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
"
Reversal: Treating a female plant with STS in order to collect viable female pollen.

Selfing: Applying female pollen to the female from which it was collected. Example : selecting a particular Willie Nelson cutting, reversing it, and putting the pollen back on another clone of the same plant. Applying that pollen to a different Willie cutting, or to another strain altogether, is not selfing.

F0: The parents selected to start a breeding program. Often referred to as P1 and P2, but this is incorrect.

F1: the first cross between two unrelated parents. The F stands for filial, and refers to the fact that all F1 progeny of the same cross are full brothers and sisters to one another.

S1: The first selfed generation. Selfing an S1 produces an S2, etc. Anecdotal evidence from Sam_Skunkman indicates that continued selfing to the S3 and S4 produces plants so weak that they must be handled very carefully, like kittens in his words.

R1's (aka Reversed F1's): When feminized pollen is used to pollinate a different female than the pollen donor. R1's will tend to act like a tradional male x female cross, only all female, while S1's appear to have some different properties that are not yet fully understood. Early reports indicatee that S1's are more consistent than R1's on average, but there are many exceptions, and more research is needed."
 
maranibbana

maranibbana

Well-Known Member
BC1: The first backcross generation, ie when an F1 or R1 progeny is crossed back to an F0 parent. Backcrossing can increase the influence of either parent, but continued backcrossing is too much inbreeding, according to both DJ Short and Rezdog, and should be used rarely if at all. One or two backcrosses followed by full-sib mating has beena successful strategy for many breeders, including the creator of Northern Lights.

These terms can be combined for shortand pedigrees. A second backross, followed by three generations of sib-mating, may be represented as a BC2-F3 generation.
 
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