Basic Breeding question - HOW TO CREATE F4'S ???

That Canadian

That Canadian

Active Member
So, by no means am I a breeder or have ever bread anything, but I'm pretty interested in

why seed companies can charge crazy money for a couple beans.

So say I had 10 reg purple kush seeds. picked the best female, and a similar male and

used it's pollen to impregnate that female. That would give me f2's correct? And then I

would have to grow those beans out, pick a female and male that match the previous

plants, and continue doing this until I get f4's.


So my question is - is there an easier way than this to create f4's????? And if not, is it

a bad things to have f2's?


ANY ADVICE MUCH APPRECIATED!!!

PS - don't give me a google copy of gregor mendel's lessons, I want FIRST HAND

KNOWLEDGE, that's the best kind and what this forum's best for imho.

Thanks, Canadian :peace:
 
canefan

canefan

Well-Known Member
Let me state that I am no expert, have bred both plants and animals for years. I am with you about the charts, been there. Ok having a F2 hybrid is a good thing, meaning you are fairly stable in your genes, won't breed true but has in essence more of the same dominate traits paired together so you have less pheno's.
Let me see if I can explain this correctly and in a way to understand easily. You have your purple whatever......lets say this is your F2. You cross your male and female getting your seeds. These seeds are basically going to grow out the characteristics of their parents. They have already been bred back to the original plant once.
Now if you recross from this you have are going to start to express recessive genes in the offspring with great frequency. You would need to select the pheno that most closely represents the traits from the parent you wish to carry on. You would breed this back to the parent stock, a parent from the original F2 seed.
You always need to keep your parents available in clone in order to make certain you are really breeding the same. This can be a time consuming effort on small scale like I do, or grow a 100 plants to see all the pheno's and narrow your search.
My current project is from Sannie Seeds: Sannie's Jack and El Monstre, I have just flowered my first generation of these and gathered my seeds. I took two different pheno's both male and female and grew them out and crossed each pheno to itself and to each other. Now I will grow these seeds and cross them back to El Monstre as this is the parent with the color I am looking for. I will grow these out select the best of what I want and cross back to the original cross pheno showing the el monstre traits I want. I take these seeds and cross back to el monstre or to sannie's jack depending on if there is a trait I need to reinforce.
I may not be a good scientific breeder but it is how I understand the charts and what I have learned over the years. I don't sell the seeds or have plans to, I just am trying to make a smoke I like that is acclimated to my severe growing conditions.
Let me know how it comes out, it has become a passion in my retirement now that I have time to spend on it.
 
nog

nog

Active Member
the problem with crossing strains is that unless you know for certain the genetic history of the plant, you could come up with a infinate number of phenotypes, what is purple kush? is it a landrace strain or an f1,f2, or what? you will get all kinds of throwbacks, without a clue as to whats what, ive grown out f2's and come up with half a dozen pheno's out of 10 seeds. its ok if you find a good one, that meets your requirements, you can then clone from this plant. the reason why cheep seeds (and some expensive ones for that matter) give a veriety of pheno's id because they are not stable. the best are f1's they have the most "hybrid vigour", you need landrace strains to get these and unless you have the time, money good luck and bottle to wander about in afghanistan, or colombia or wherever you cannot be sure of what you are starting with. good luck anyway and i guess its fun to experiment.
 
That Canadian

That Canadian

Active Member
canefan said:
Let me state that I am no expert, have bred both plants and animals for years. I am with you about the charts, been there. Ok having a F2 hybrid is a good thing, meaning you are fairly stable in your genes, won't breed true but has in essence more of the same dominate traits paired together so you have less pheno's.
Let me see if I can explain this correctly and in a way to understand easily. You have your purple whatever......lets say this is your F2. You cross your male and female getting your seeds. These seeds are basically going to grow out the characteristics of their parents. They have already been bred back to the original plant once.
Now if you recross from this you have are going to start to express recessive genes in the offspring with great frequency. You would need to select the pheno that most closely represents the traits from the parent you wish to carry on. You would breed this back to the parent stock, a parent from the original F2 seed.
You always need to keep your parents available in clone in order to make certain you are really breeding the same. This can be a time consuming effort on small scale like I do, or grow a 100 plants to see all the pheno's and narrow your search.
My current project is from Sannie Seeds: Sannie's Jack and El Monstre, I have just flowered my first generation of these and gathered my seeds. I took two different pheno's both male and female and grew them out and crossed each pheno to itself and to each other. Now I will grow these seeds and cross them back to El Monstre as this is the parent with the color I am looking for. I will grow these out select the best of what I want and cross back to the original cross pheno showing the el monstre traits I want. I take these seeds and cross back to el monstre or to sannie's jack depending on if there is a trait I need to reinforce.
I may not be a good scientific breeder but it is how I understand the charts and what I have learned over the years. I don't sell the seeds or have plans to, I just am trying to make a smoke I like that is acclimated to my severe growing conditions.
Let me know how it comes out, it has become a passion in my retirement now that I have time to spend on it.
Click to expand...
Thanks alot for the input guys!

So Canefan, I could grow out a pack of F2 purple kush, take a short,stout purple mother. pollinate her, take a clone from her, with her own seeds use a male to pollinate a clone, take those seeds and do that same process all to the same clones of mothers?

Basically what im saying is, if i have one mother, I can cross pollen with new seeds on different clones from thesame mum and that would eventually make the breed stable? Or would I need to get a completely new female and a new male every batch of seeds?
 
canefan

canefan

Well-Known Member
Lets see if I can do a better job of this explaination. Sorry just tasting a piece of green bud I took yesterday, giving it a do you think it will be a keeper or not. Ok you have your purple Kush, tired my seed finder, couldn't locate purple kush seed, what breeder did you get these from? Anyway, if you plant all of your 10 seeds picking out the best of each sex you would cross those two. Then if you know the lineage you would go back and find out who the father was to the pack of seeds you have. This can be tricky to know for sure but you can get close thereby having a starting or base point to your strain.
Here is a link to seedfinders:http://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/Early_Purple_Kush/Reefermans_Seeds/
I looked up early purlpe kush from here to find out where the lineage comes from, you can do this to almost any for sale breeder here.
So if I could I would go back and take that first cross of your purple and back cross that to the clone of the seed plant. To kind of gel this for being stoned and lack of a better word, gene pool. In the future by crossing some different phenos with main group you can help keep genetic variation in your offspring while still keeping a smaller gene pool.
I did kind of ramble again sorry. I love talking about this stuff even though my biology professor you to pull his hair out at my questions. He was cool and gave me what little understanding I have of this but my livestock and other plants seem to look fairly decent to me.
To bio majors I hope I didn't lead him too far astray.....lol.
 
That Canadian

That Canadian

Active Member
Fuck man I was using purple kush as an example, I have og kush from riserva privada right now im thinking down the line though. What i'm meaning is, without looking anything up. What is the simplest way to take a 10 pack of reg beans (could be anything northern lights, white widow, super skunk whatever) and create a stable inbred line being atleast fourth generation using only those 10 beans..

Really appreciate your time by the way thanks alot man
 
canefan

canefan

Well-Known Member
Well, in answer to that yes. That being said it will be a very long process, several years even with cloning and running multiple groups. Aside from the number of pheno's which are possible in the first few generations. The biggest problem you are going to start to see is the lack of plant vigor with the little gene pool. You see this in many IBLs but trying with your start it will probably show long before you are close to stable.
I certainly would not discourage you from this attempt though. Once you start and do a few things you will either get bored with it or become a passion with you.
I hope it becomes a passion and wish you many years of success.
 
That Canadian

That Canadian

Active Member
canefan said:
Well, in answer to that yes. That being said it will be a very long process, several years even with cloning and running multiple groups. Aside from the number of pheno's which are possible in the first few generations. The biggest problem you are going to start to see is the lack of plant vigor with the little gene pool. You see this in many IBLs but trying with your start it will probably show long before you are close to stable.
I certainly would not discourage you from this attempt though. Once you start and do a few things you will either get bored with it or become a passion with you.
I hope it becomes a passion and wish you many years of success.
Click to expand...
Alright thanks man appreciate your time
 
N

NuggPufr

Active Member
That Canadian said:
Fuck man I was using purple kush as an example, I have og kush from riserva privada right now im thinking down the line though. What i'm meaning is, without looking anything up. What is the simplest way to take a 10 pack of reg beans (could be anything northern lights, white widow, super skunk whatever) and create a stable inbred line being atleast fourth generation using only those 10 beans..

Really appreciate your time by the way thanks alot man
Click to expand...
What you want to accomplish is called "line breeding". Assuming that your "purple kush" is F1 stock, meaning it is the progeny of two completely different strains that were mated, you can begin by simply selecting a male and female from your 10 pack and mate them to create F2's. The real phenotype differences dont really show up until F2 stage as F1's all tend to be a mix of both parents so F2 is where selection becomes more important. The more F2 seeds you have to choose from the better. Continue mating brother and sister until you get to F3, F4, F5 or where ever you want to go with it. Mating an Fx progeny back to the P1 parent is called "backcrossing". This technique is used to try and lock in traits from the P1 by increasing the genetic percentage of said trait.

If your purple kush were an ibl already, then to get an F1 you would need to mate with a non purple kush plant to create your F1 hybrid. More technically it would be a poly-hybrid however unless your P1 stock is true landrace genetics. A poly hybrid is basically a hybrid created by the union of 2 stabilized hybrids. Most of the strains on the market today fall into this category. Then continue to line breed as mentioned above to get to you Fx destination.


Hope this can help.
 
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