Breeders carrying original clone parents vs inbred lines

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budtoker221

Well-Known Member
Are most regular seeds from breeders just successive generations of seed runs breeding within the same family? (That way they don’t have to keep the same parent clones going for years)
This seems like the lazy way to do it and I’m assuming most breeders don’t actually keep mom and pop clones going for decades especially if they’re offering like 50 strains.

I’ve only seen a few strain descriptions indicating that they’re inbreeding successive seeds runs and “selecting parents with the best characteristics” with each seed run.
They usually say this “reinvigorates” the genetics or whatever but I’m skeptical because like a red delicious apple is still a red delicious apple I’m pretty sure apple tree clones have been going for hundred years at this point and they’re still the same.

I can’t imagine that all these breeders have the parent clones going for years and years.
Same with feminized, they can just do an s1 seedrun each time they need to re up on a batch of seeds, without actually keeping the same clones going the whole time!!

Is this why some breeders genetics keep changing over the years?

although if I see a strain description where they describe a specific mom clone and pop clone, (a lot of strain descriptions actually describe this) I guess I’d have to assume they’re carrying these same clones for years, I’m just wondering how common that is.
 
C

conor c

Well-Known Member
budtoker221 said:
Are most regular seeds from breeders just successive generations of seed runs breeding within the same family? (That way they don’t have to keep the same parent clones going for years)
This seems like the lazy way to do it and I’m assuming most breeders don’t actually keep mom and pop clones going for decades especially if they’re offering like 50 strains.

I’ve only seen a few strain descriptions indicating that they’re inbreeding successive seeds runs and “selecting parents with the best characteristics” with each seed run.
They usually say this “reinvigorates” the genetics or whatever but I’m skeptical because like a red delicious apple is still a red delicious apple I’m pretty sure apple tree clones have been going for hundred years at this point and they’re still the same.

I can’t imagine that all these breeders have the parent clones going for years and years.
Same with feminized, they can just do an s1 seedrun each time they need to re up on a batch of seeds, without actually keeping the same clones going the whole time!!

Is this why some breeders genetics keep changing over the years?

although if I see a strain description where they describe a specific mom clone and pop clone, (a lot of strain descriptions actually describe this) I guess I’d have to assume they’re carrying these same clones for years, I’m just wondering how common that is.
Click to expand...
Depends some people do manage it but i think you must remember its hard to keep em for years in tip top shape also worth bearing in mind weed aint legal everywhere so keeping parental stock long term in clone form is hard few breeders release real lines these days anyways most sell polyhybrids claimed to be f1 s which to me they aint and also not every line does well taken forward neither some just lose there shine even with great selections etc
 
J

jdoorn14

Well-Known Member
budtoker221 said:
Are most regular seeds from breeders just successive generations of seed runs breeding within the same family? (That way they don’t have to keep the same parent clones going for years)
This seems like the lazy way to do it and I’m assuming most breeders don’t actually keep mom and pop clones going for decades especially if they’re offering like 50 strains.

I’ve only seen a few strain descriptions indicating that they’re inbreeding successive seeds runs and “selecting parents with the best characteristics” with each seed run.
They usually say this “reinvigorates” the genetics or whatever but I’m skeptical because like a red delicious apple is still a red delicious apple I’m pretty sure apple tree clones have been going for hundred years at this point and they’re still the same.

I can’t imagine that all these breeders have the parent clones going for years and years.
Same with feminized, they can just do an s1 seedrun each time they need to re up on a batch of seeds, without actually keeping the same clones going the whole time!!

Is this why some breeders genetics keep changing over the years?

although if I see a strain description where they describe a specific mom clone and pop clone, (a lot of strain descriptions actually describe this) I guess I’d have to assume they’re carrying these same clones for years, I’m just wondering how common that is.
Click to expand...
Depends on the "breeder" TBH. Some of the longer-tenured breeders, like CSI, Bodhi, Gooeybreeder, etc. absolutely keep mothers and fathers for decades, unless they lose the plants due to disease, bugs, etc. Gooeybreeder's Mom Gooey is coming up on 40 years old IIRC. That's not to say they still have the original original plants, but they have clones from the original plants. As long as they stay in good heath, clones allow them to continue using the same parents for many, many years.

You're also not going to find many "breeders" who run successive generations of their seeds. That's too much like actual work--growing out multiple generations of plants, selecting toward a specific set of traits, and using selective breeding to lock in those traits--that would prevent them from keeping up with the flavor of the week hype strains. There are definitely some who work their seeds through multiple generations, like Professor P from Dynasty/Relic or Drgrenskye from Red Scare Seed Co.

Also, despite what many people think, an S1 is not identical to the parent it was made from. Yes, it's made from the same genetics--but the genetics recombine during the pollination. So you get a mixture of the original's dominant and recessive traits in every seed. Find the episode of The Pot Cast with Nspecta from CSI/Pirates of the Emerald Triangle and really listen to what he has to say about S1s. You may get something similar, you may also find something better than the original, but you're also going to find a crap ton of plants that are nowhere near as good as the original clone...and it's going to take searching through a lot of seeds to find something as good as or better than the original. In fact, Nspecta said there's no better way to really open up a plant's genepool than by making S1 seeds of it.
 
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budtoker221

Well-Known Member
jdoorn14 said:
Depends on the "breeder" TBH. Some of the longer-tenured breeders, like CSI, Bodhi, Gooeybreeder, etc. absolutely keep mothers and fathers for decades, unless they lose the plants due to disease, bugs, etc. Gooeybreeder's Mom Gooey is coming up on 40 years old IIRC. That's not to say they still have the original original plants, but they have clones from the original plants. As long as they stay in good heath, clones allow them to continue using the same parents for many, many years.

You're also not going to find many "breeders" who run successive generations of their seeds. That's too much like actual work--growing out multiple generations of plants, selecting toward a specific set of traits, and using selective breeding to lock in those traits--that would prevent them from keeping up with the flavor of the week hype strains. There are definitely some who work their seeds through multiple generations, like Professor P from Dynasty/Relic or Drgrenskye from Red Scare Seed Co.

Also, despite what many people think, an S1 is not identical to the parent it was made from. Yes, it's made from the same genetics--but the genetics recombine during the pollination. So you get a mixture of the original's dominant and recessive traits in every seed. Find the episode of The Pot Cast with Nspecta from CSI/Pirates of the Emerald Triangle and really listen to what he has to say about S1s. You may get something similar, you may also find something better than the original, but you're also going to find a crap ton of plants that are nowhere near as good as the original clone...and it's going to take searching through a lot of seeds to find something as good as or better than the original. In fact, Nspecta said there's no better way to really open up a plant's genepool than by making S1 seeds of it.
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Thank you, that’s actually what I wanted to hear, that some breeders really do keep the parent stock going for years.
Yea I’m just learning that about s1s, I grew out a bunch of CSI’s BK s1s, one really stood out with amazing coffee flavor, but I didn’t clone it and now I gotta start all over! Luckily those s1s are all really good though.
 
morgwar

morgwar

Well-Known Member
budtoker221 said:
Thank you, that’s actually what I wanted to hear, that some breeders really do keep the parent stock going for years.
Yea I’m just learning that about s1s, I grew out a bunch of CSI’s BK s1s, one really stood out with amazing coffee flavor, but I didn’t clone it and now I gotta start all over! Luckily those s1s are all really good though.
Click to expand...
I love posts like these, because it shows the seed buying public is better informed and finally starting to question these "breeders"
They need to stop calling these "strains" and refer to them as cultivars or hybrids.
A bit of a rant supporting your comment ( I'm probably preaching to the pope)
If I buy patty pan squash seeds, plant them, and save and grow the seeds, I will get identical patty pan squash plants, because they are " worked" true breeding heirlooms with generations of selection.
You probably have already figured out, If I buy a " Mac f1" pack in regular (or ak47, gsc, or take your pic) and do the same I'll get a dozen random f2 plants with perhaps nothing in common with the mother.
As a hybrid f1 it's got a lot of temporary, or long term value if you keep clones, but to get a similar plant to the f1 it takes a lot of seeds and years of patience,
It is possible, as the genes are in there, but there's a ton of crap to sort out as well.
I'd point to sannies, omuerta, dj short, bodhi and a few more for true breeding strains.
Take care.
 
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