Breeders, Moneygrabs, and Hermies

xtsho said:

I grow exclusively from seed and don't get hermies.

I think you're using the term breeder much too loosely. Who are these other breeders and what actual background do they have in plant science?

The "Never flower from seed plants" is 100% bro-science nonsense.

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xtsho said:

I was referring to this statement:

"I have read other breeders state never flower your from seed plants, always take cuts and flower them but never heard why and I wonder if this is related and part of the old bro-science that holds some facts to it?.."

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Tangerine_ said:

Sometimes seed plants will develop male parts on lower underlit branches. Its extremely rare for the clones from that same plant to continue to throw balls because the plant has matured and acclimated to its artificial environment. Thats not broscience, its fact and I'd challenge anyone to disprove this widely accepted concept.

Plants that show interesex from top to bottom should be tossed though....thats just lazy breeding.

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Respectfully an argument could be made that you have no experience with herms then @xtsho so you can’t really say.. I have had three plants herm, none of the clones from those three have so far. I have not changed anything. Could it be coincidence, sure..

a lot of ppl never flower the seed plant bcs they grow it out, cut their clones then, cull the mother and run from the clones

I was simply stating what was said to me and I have read other places in case someone else wants to try for themselves instead of claiming it’s wrong without trying.

@Tangerine_ likely hit the nail on the head, many growers especially newer do not allow their plants to mature before pushing them into flower, I’d bet most don’t even know they should, mine happened on my second grow before I really knew anything about a mature plant

Anyway, I was just sharing in case it helps someone and in case others know about this and have more facts about it

pegboy said:

So is it just a fact these days that we're just going to have to deal with high percentages of hermied plants? With breeders literally cranking out multiple strains in months with almost no stablizing is this the new normal? What about those of us who don't have the time or room to go pheno hunting full seed packs? With the prices of seeds these days I would certainly think there should be more stablizing. Two grows in a row now from two big breeders.......GOT SEEDS? Rant over. Just venting.

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Everyone and their dog is now a “breeder.” If breeders are not culling their breeding stock closely, then this stuff will happen.

ALPHA.GanjaGuy said:

Respectfully an argument could be made that you have no experience with herms then @xtsho so you can’t really say.. I have had three plants herm, none of the clones from those three have so far. I have not changed anything. Could it be coincidence, sure..

a lot of ppl never flower the seed plant bcs they grow it out, cut their clones then, cull the mother and run from the clones

I was simply stating what was said to me and I have read other places in case someone else wants to try for themselves instead of claiming it’s wrong without trying.

@Tangerine_ likely hit the nail on the head, many growers especially newer do not allow their plants to mature before pushing them into flower, I’d bet most don’t even know they should, mine happened on my second grow before I really knew anything about a mature plant

Anyway, I was just sharing in case it helps someone and in case others know about this and have more facts about it

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Well the thread was about "Breeders" and herms. I've had dozens of free seeds from seed purchases. Mostly fem seeds from a variety of different breeders and none of them hermed. I even gave away most of them to people that are terrible growers and cause every stress to the plant imaginable. They never got herms either.

As for herms, yes I have had them but they were from landrace strains which isn't uncommon and since there is no actual breeder involved I didn't include those in my previous comments. But as for the typical polyhybrids most are growing I haven't had any issues with any of those that I've grown over the last decade or so. I have encountered some late flower nanners but I don't consider that a true herm.

I don't know what people are doing and it is quite possible that the genetics are crap but it is also possible that it is caused by something the grower is doing. One factor that is often overlooked is feeding practices and what you're feeding. Overfertilization is a stress factor and many are feeding excessive amounts to their plants. There is also the ingredients of what they're feeding and many of the additives as well. Some products have unlisted ingredients in them that can include growth regulators that when used in excess can have adverse effects on plants. Take kelp for instance. It contains gibberellin aka (gibberellic acid or GA ). GA can be used to produce male flowers on female plants the same way that STS and CS are used. The problem with GA is that it's hard to get the proper dosage and the results can be undesirable which is why STS and CS are the predominate methods used for reversals to make feminized seeds.

"Another hormone found in kelp is gibberellin (also known as gibberellic acid or GA), which encourage stem growth and elongation. At high concentrations gibberellin can be used to encourage germination of seeds or manipulate gender expression, but at the levels found in kelp it is generally considered a growth stimulant."


It's not that I lack experience with hermies it's just that the hermies I've had in recent years were landraces like Highland Thai, Moroccan, Mazar I Sharif, etc... None of those were polyhybrids from so called breeders.

Highland Thai hermie



Moroccan landrace





As for waiting for plants to mature before flowering. I don't think that has anything to do with it as many myself included run 12/12 from seed quite often and don't encounter any hermies.

There are definitely crap genetics out there but there's been crap genetics for decades and there wasn't the amount of hermies or at least people were not talking about it. It's most likely a combination of factors but I think stress from overfeeding and feeding products that contain ingredients that can enhance the potential for a plant to herm is a factor that most overlook.

ALPHA.GanjaGuy said:

a lot of ppl never flower the seed plant bcs they grow it out, cut their clones then, cull the mother and run from the clones

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Why is this? I feel like that's alot of risk. Like if I'm going to take cuttings of a plant, mono crop it, and then ALL of them herm - well then I'm fucked. I'd rather take a seed pack, find what grew the best and take that one.

@xtsho My statement was regarding a plant that is breed from landrace strains although I had not mentioned any strain. Looks like we are on the same page tho for the most part. I just offered people something to try that worked for me and others if they have a plant with this issue

Hermaphrodites are interesting. I cut my face and hands in cane grass in my teens growing with my father. His strains were all landrace crosses, pakalolo, later infused with the first early girls and silver pearl genetics. To shorten flower time to beat green harvest when they only flew during long season harvest months. The modern genetics absolutely caused herms. My dad and his buddies only ever worried about herms from the vietnamese strains. And the male flowers came first at the ends of branches mostly and they could just be cut off and the plant would finish as a normal female. Always a risk in the bush with timing to pull males or cut off the male parts.
When they crossed early girl and silver pearl into all of their strains, bud rot became worse and herms later in flower were not uncommon in the F1s and F2s. They back crossed these hybrids back to their original pakalolo to decrease this. The quality of any of the hybrids back crossed or not was never as good as the pakalolo parents.
They ended up taking a trip to Amsterdam to buy indica, faster flowering genetics in the early 90s to breed with. As the hype train was well on it's way by then.
My hanai uncle has a meat freezer filled half pig, half seeds and male pollen going back to the mid 70s. He is very protective of this, to get 10 seeds you work a month in the Kalo lo'i.

ALPHA.GanjaGuy said:

@xtsho My statement was regarding a plant that is breed from landrace strains although I had not mentioned any strain. Looks like we are on the same page tho for the most part. I just offered people something to try that worked for me and others if they have a plant with this issue

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stock made from landraces can be cleaned up it just takes time numbers patience and killing anything not firmly male or female very few breeders do this these days there excuse mostly when you ask them why is people dont wanna wait anymore lol

I'll join, ETHOS Mandarin Sunset or any of their strains crossed with it would full herm on me from seed except for one strain, Purple Sunset. Other than that Mandarin Sunset, Sunset Cookies or w/e they threw fat sacks and had to be body bagged. These were their "Alpha Feminized" options.

conor c said:

Same for me its rare and i have always grew from seed every grow and i probably always will

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I have grown a cut of creamsicle for 5 years and it definitely has degraded but slowly. Mainly the yield will depreciate over time. Even if you run 20 gallon pots and really open them up they just don't yield much flower after a half decade or more. I don't know if that's "genetic drift" but I can attest that after 5 years even a cloned mother will get tired out.

calvin.m16 said:

I have grown a cut of creamsicle for 5 years and it definitely has degraded but slowly. Mainly the yield will depreciate over time. Even if you run 20 gallon pots and really open them up they just don't yield much flower after a half decade or more. I don't know if that's "genetic drift" but I can attest that after 5 years even a cloned mother will get tired out.

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Funny how some cuts dont show that so fast and others do proly some kind of pathogen we aint identified yet or something along those lines i doubt its drift in 5 years who knows tho

conor c said:

Funny how some cuts dont show that so fast and others do proly some kind of pathogen we aint identified yet or something along those lines i doubt its drift in 5 years who knows tho

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I think the cut was already a couple years old when I got it. It would be cool if they did a controlled study on it one day. I'm sure someone will.

Epigenetics

conor c said:

Funny how some cuts dont show that so fast and others do proly some kind of pathogen we aint identified yet or something along those lines i doubt its drift in 5 years who knows tho

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Bro science BS..... I have a mother plant in my garden right now from an OG no name indica strain from the 70s, I've had the same genetics for over 10 years, got it from a guy who was in his 80s at the time, bred it himself, claimed it was the original northern lights...... and its never shown any signs of slowing down, prolly on my 50th mother clone of it, taken 100s of clones to grow out with, one of the few strains I have a backup of via tissue clone... I agree with you, If its happening there's an external variable causing the diminishing returns..... EDITED:

Budget Buds said:

Bro science BS..... I have a mother plant in my garden right now from an OG no name indica strain from the 70s, I've had the same genetics for over 10 years, got it from a guy who was in his 80s at the time, bred it himself, claimed it was the original northern lights...... and its never shown any signs of slowing down, prolly on my 50th clone of it ... I agree with you, If its happening there's an external variable causing the diminishing returns.....

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Yeah i think Its not so simple as genetic drift i really do think some kind of viroid or something at work when cuts dud or lose something

conor c said:

Yeah i think Its not so simple as genetic drift i really do think some kind of viroid or something at work when cuts dud or lose something

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Its an external variable....... Plants dont lose vigor genetically without them, What we would consider vigor maybe acclimation of environment, Pathogens or parasites or maybe the photon source didnt shine as much or is losing efficiency.. hell it could be anything

Plants will change over time due to environment. It's actual science which is why I posted about Epigenetics.

For instance, people sometimes refer to plants bred for specific locations. I'll use the PNW as an example. There are multiple entities that have strains that have been bred that do well growing outdoors in this region. It's not anything special the breeder did but more the plants adapting to the environment over multiple generations. No DNA is changed but some genes are suppressed while others become more dominant. Just about every living species will adapt to their environment to survive.

When you grow a plant under the same environment indoors you're not going to see any significant changes. But grow them in a different environment and they'll adapt to that environment.

The science is high level and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but I have a rudimentary knowledge of it and it all makes sense.

Budget Buds said:

Bro science BS..... I have a mother plant in my garden right now from an OG no name indica strain from the 70s, I've had the same genetics for over 10 years, got it from a guy who was in his 80s at the time, bred it himself, claimed it was the original northern lights...... and its never shown any signs of slowing down, prolly on my 50th mother clone of it, taken 100s of clones to grow out with, one of the few strains I have a backup of via tissue clone... I agree with you, If its happening there's an external variable causing the diminishing returns..... EDITED:

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I crossed the IBL Durban I maintain with a cutting of MAC that’s been maintained on the Kenai for years. Years. The resulting cross is excellent. Yield and flavor. Good stuff.

xtsho said:

Plants will change over time due to environment. It's actual science which is why I posted about Epigenetics.

For instance, people sometimes refer to plants bred for specific locations. I'll use the PNW as an example. There are multiple entities that have strains that have been bred that do well growing outdoors in this region. It's not anything special the breeder did but more the plants adapting to the environment over multiple generations. No DNA is changed but some genes are suppressed while others become more dominant. Just about every living species will adapt to their environment to survive.

When you grow a plant under the same environment indoors you're not going to see any significant changes. But grow them in a different environment and they'll adapt to that environment.

The science is high level and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but I have a rudimentary knowledge of it and it all makes sense.

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For sure, Its really interesting stuff that keeps my brain up at night ( not being a smart ass) kinda like how the city of toyko used a fungus to plan its subway system more efficiently, the world is big and we really dont know shit about the things that we share it with

xtsho said:

Plants will change over time due to environment. It's actual science which is why I posted about Epigenetics.

For instance, people sometimes refer to plants bred for specific locations. I'll use the PNW as an example. There are multiple entities that have strains that have been bred that do well growing outdoors in this region. It's not anything special the breeder did but more the plants adapting to the environment over multiple generations. No DNA is changed but some genes are suppressed while others become more dominant. Just about every living species will adapt to their environment to survive.

When you grow a plant under the same environment indoors you're not going to see any significant changes. But grow them in a different environment and they'll adapt to that environment.

The science is high level and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert but I have a rudimentary knowledge of it and it all makes sense.

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Of course theres so much at play i aint denying epigenetics its role either and yes pheno plasticity can be a factor too as is environmental factors viroids whatever we dont know enough yet is all we know lol

conor c said:

Of course theres so much at play i aint denying epigenetics its role either and yes pheno plasticity can be a factor too as is environmental factors viroids whatever we dont know enough yet is all we know lol

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The more you learn the more you realize how much you really don't know.