Coots style mix really low in Nitrogen- best amendment?

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Northwood

Well-Known Member
Nwtexan said:
Just got back my soil test from a Coots mix blend.
I used Malibu dynamic compost and followed the standard amendments. Only diff was that I was missing about half basalt, and Glacial rock dust when i sent out the test. I figured these were slow release additives and wouldn't affect it too much.

It is possible that the sample wasn't completely accurate. The test has a 1/4 cup container. I had my soil mixed really well and did my best to get a good recc.

Anyway, my Nitrogen is way low. Also low on some micros-Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Copper Boron.

I want to try to correct these and send off another test before I plant in about 3 weeks. I know Bat Guano is good for Nitrogen, but seems to split people as to whether it is a good move. What about micros?
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I know this will be controversial, but I think your soil test shouldn't be interpreted that way in regards to nitrogen. They're only measuring the ions of NO3 and NH4. It really doesn't mean anything. For example whenever a protozoan in your soil takes a poop after eating bacteria, then those NH4+ ions will be snatched away within seconds by hungry bacteria and fungi. At least it better be! If you scored anything significant in your test for Ammonia or Nitrate, it would indicate high free levels of N ions that remain uneaten because there is no life around to eat it.

Plants are very good at regulating their uptake of nitrogen. When few free ions are available the plant can respond by sending out exudates from their roots with "signalling" molecules that affect the behavior and metabolism of other creatures living in the rhizosphere. Plants even regulate their uptake of nitrogen as well even when its in available form.

You can actually get a real nitrogen test - well not really accurate but it's the best we have right now. Farmers use it though, and it's usually called a "Nitrogen Management Analysis Report" or something like that. They measure the biological activity in your soil, as well as the amount of amino-acid or other organic nitrogen molecules in there. Then they make an estimate (based on the local climate) of the rate of release of available N throughout the season. It's based on a lot of assumptions of course, but I hope you know why the testing and particularly the interpretation of various tests of nitrogen are problematic.
 
Nwtexan

Nwtexan

Well-Known Member
Northwood said:
I know this will be controversial, but I think your soil test shouldn't be interpreted that way in regards to nitrogen. They're only measuring the ions of NO3 and NH4. It really doesn't mean anything. For example whenever a protozoan in your soil takes a poop after eating bacteria, then those NH4+ ions will be snatched away within seconds by hungry bacteria and fungi. At least it better be! If you scored anything significant in your test for Ammonia or Nitrate, it would indicate high free levels of N ions that remain uneaten because there is no life around to eat it.

Plants are very good at regulating their uptake of nitrogen. When few free ions are available the plant can respond by sending out exudates from their roots with "signalling" molecules that affect the behavior and metabolism of other creatures living in the rhizosphere. Plants even regulate their uptake of nitrogen as well even when its in available form.

You can actually get a real nitrogen test - well not really accurate but it's the best we have right now. Farmers use it though, and it's usually called a "Nitrogen Management Analysis Report" or something like that. They measure the biological activity in your soil, as well as the amount of amino-acid or other organic nitrogen molecules in there. Then they make an estimate (based on the local climate) of the rate of release of available N throughout the season. It's based on a lot of assumptions of course, but I hope you know why the testing and particularly the interpretation of various tests of nitrogen are problematic.
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This actually make sense to me, and was kind of the way(without the knowledge on a chemical level) I was thinking it might be. I know that many of the elements are released at different times depending on the soil biology, so was thinking that might be why the test was off.
Are phosphorus and potassium more available immediately? My potassium level, as well as some of my micros, were pretty far off.
 
N

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Nwtexan said:
This actually make sense to me, and was kind of the way(without the knowledge on a chemical level) I was thinking it might be. I know that many of the elements are released at different times depending on the soil biology, so was thinking that might be why the test was off.
Are phosphorus and potassium more available immediately? My potassium level, as well as some of my micros, were pretty far off.
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There are 3 distinct reservoirs or pools of potassium in soil, and normally 98% of it is locked up in forms that plants can't use in regular soil. But we're not growing in real soil, so I doubt there's a lot of mica and feldspar minerals in your mix. The good news is that potassium in available form is pretty mobile (unlike phosphorus) so if you have an excess, simply watering to runoff now and then while discontinuing the use of additives with a lot of potassium should fix the issue in time. Excess potassium can inhibit the plants' ability to uptake calcium and magnesium, so keep that in mind in case you see a deficiency later.

If you keep your biology happy and well-fed with organic material, then the availability of micronutrients should gradually improve if that really does turn out to be an issue.
 
Nwtexan

Nwtexan

Well-Known Member
Northwood said:
There are 3 distinct reservoirs or pools of potassium in soil, and normally 98% of it is locked up in forms that plants can't use in regular soil. But we're not growing in real soil, so I doubt there's a lot of mica and feldspar minerals in your mix. The good news is that potassium in available form is pretty mobile (unlike phosphorus) so if you have an excess, simply watering to runoff now and then while discontinuing the use of additives with a lot of potassium should fix the issue in time. Excess potassium can inhibit the plants' ability to uptake calcium and magnesium, so keep that in mind in case you see a deficiency later.

If you keep your biology happy and well-fed with organic material, then the availability of micronutrients should gradually improve if that really does turn out to be an issue.
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My issue would be that I'm in a SIP so that isn't really an opportunity
 
Nwtexan

Nwtexan

Well-Known Member
Northwood said:
There are 3 distinct reservoirs or pools of potassium in soil, and normally 98% of it is locked up in forms that plants can't use in regular soil. But we're not growing in real soil, so I doubt there's a lot of mica and feldspar minerals in your mix. The good news is that potassium in available form is pretty mobile (unlike phosphorus) so if you have an excess, simply watering to runoff now and then while discontinuing the use of additives with a lot of potassium should fix the issue in time. Excess potassium can inhibit the plants' ability to uptake calcium and magnesium, so keep that in mind in case you see a deficiency later.

If you keep your biology happy and well-fed with organic material, then the availability of micronutrients should gradually improve if that really does turn out to be an issue.
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When you are talking about building the biology, I am assuming you are talking about both keeping the soil active and adding elements to the soil that those critters can eat. I was imagining adding compost/ewc and also elements that are nitrogen heavy, without the potassium, like crabmeal.

A lot of folks with SIPS will trench nutrients as well. I was initially thinking this would be the way to go with something like Dr. Earth Flower Girl, but I'm not thinking i need to get my soil in line first.

I am a bit worried about calcium/mag deficiencies. If i get these because of the potassium amount in the SIP I'm worried that I won't have much I can do. The only thing I can think of if that is the case, is to foilar feed/.
 
Y

youraveragehorticulturist

Well-Known Member
Crab shell is full of calcium and magnesium, and in a good ratio for tweeds. Sprinkle some on top of your soil here and there and you should be golden.

Most Phosphorus sources like fish bone meal, crab shell, and bat guano have a bunch of Calcium. And the hard stuff has magnesium. If you need more Magnesium near then end without the calcium you can always use epsom salt. Or maybe langbienite if you're low on Potassium by then.
 
Nwtexan

Nwtexan

Well-Known Member
youraveragehorticulturist said:
Crab shell is full of calcium and magnesium, and in a good ratio for tweeds. Sprinkle some on top of your soil here and there and you should be golden.

Most Phosphorus sources like fish bone meal, crab shell, and bat guano have a bunch of Calcium. And the hard stuff has magnesium. If you need more Magnesium near then end without the calcium you can always use epsom salt. Or maybe langbienite if you're low on Potassium by then.
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I am thinking it might be good to go ahead and add some more crab meal. with the low numbers it makes sense to me
 
N

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Oh my no. not meals of crab or shrimp or anything else, I was talking about food for your microorganisms. Like carbon. I don't think crab has a lot of lignin and cellulose, but that's more of the thing I'm talking about here. Some alfalfa pellets (not decomposed) for nitrogen along with some hay or straw on top as mulch to keep everything under it from drying out is more of what I was suggesting. I think the fact that I've gone 8 grow cycles now in the same soils with only those inputs (plus the unsmokeable biomass from my last harvest) and things just keep getting better likely is at least anecdotal evidence that all these hotter meals are unnecessary. Just go to your local feed store and buy stuff in 50 lb bags. It will last many, many grows.
 
N

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Nwtexan said:
My issue would be that I'm in a SIP so that isn't really an opportunity
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That's unfortunate, I guess? TBH, I wouldn't do SIP for the simple reason that I'm doing long term no-till. I'm lazy, and preferably never want to mix up a soil again in my lifetime. Lol

I don't mind top watering every couple days. I have a watering wand from Canadian Tire that I think I paid $25 for cause it was the best available at the time. It's lasted a good 5 years so far. It gives me an excuse to also check on my plants now and then. Plant training (under LED) has always been the most work related item.

Top watering is like rain in nature. It flushes the soil every time, and the CEC holds onto nutrients through the event. I sometimes get a lot of runoff and that is fed to houseplants mostly. It's a very dark evil looking liquid. Lol

But that runoff likely contains elevated levels of fluoride and other stuff that I probably don't want accumulating anyway, so I think that's a good thing. When you top water like in nature, that water trickles down in your medium bringing oxygen behind it. I'd be at bit worried about anoxic conditions with a SIP more than I would with just simple top watering as well.
 
Nwtexan

Nwtexan

Well-Known Member
Northwood said:
That's unfortunate, I guess? TBH, I wouldn't do SIP for the simple reason that I'm doing long term no-till. I'm lazy, and preferably never want to mix up a soil again in my lifetime. Lol

I don't mind top watering every couple days. I have a watering wand from Canadian Tire that I think I paid $25 for cause it was the best available at the time. It's lasted a good 5 years so far. It gives me an excuse to also check on my plants now and then. Plant training (under LED) has always been the most work related item.

Top watering is like rain in nature. It flushes the soil every time, and the CEC holds onto nutrients through the event. I sometimes get a lot of runoff and that is fed to houseplants mostly. It's a very dark evil looking liquid. Lol

But that runoff likely contains elevated levels of fluoride and other stuff that I probably don't want accumulating anyway, so I think that's a good thing. When you top water like in nature, that water trickles down in your medium bringing oxygen behind it. I'd be at bit worried about anoxic conditions with a SIP more than I would with just simple top watering as well.
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And therein lies the run. As each of us is trying to find their own methodology that works for them, we are juggling multiple schools and thoughts. I’m gonna be using SIPs, at least for a bit. I will also be using this oil mix(of which I have quite a bit!).

I will back off from more amendments then, and look to get my soil biology going and hopefully find some nitrogen for the plants.

Definitely planning on mulching and doing whatever I can to make it all work
 
N

Northwood

Well-Known Member
Nwtexan said:
And therein lies the run. As each of us is trying to find their own methodology that works for them, we are juggling multiple schools and thoughts. I’m gonna be using SIPs, at least for a bit. I will also be using this oil mix(of which I have quite a bit!).

I will back off from more amendments then, and look to get my soil biology going and hopefully find some nitrogen for the plants.

Definitely planning on mulching and doing whatever I can to make it all work
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In a pinch you can use blood meal to quickly raise nitrogen levels because it doesn't have a lot of P or K. I'd be careful with it though because more is definitely not better when using such high N amendments like that. I'd balance it out with a high carbon mulch that doesn't have many other nutrients so the bacteria and fungi always have ample carbon to eat. The introduced bacteria will draw some carbon from peat moss too, but only very slowly because it seems to a more stable form than fresher organic material (like leaves, straw, hay, etc.)
 
Bagginski

Bagginski

Well-Known Member
Almost hate to recommend, but the “Organics for Beginners” on IC a is a terrific thread, with heavy participation from Coots and others worth listening to. The last 100-150 pages isn’t interesting by comparison.
 
Nwtexan

Nwtexan

Well-Known Member
Just for an update-
I have to transplant my plants as they were outgrowing their 3 gallon containers. I gave the soil a couple of weeks with some EWC tea and recharge to get it going. When I opened up my tubs there was a nice Mycelium matt on the top so hopefully it is doing its work as needed.

I amended my soil with a bit of blood meal to get some nitrogen to the plants and added a bit more peat to bring down the PH a bit.
I've got one of the SIPs up and running with plants transplanted and about to do the same for the second one.

Hopefully the high sodium, calcium, and potassium in the mix(which seems to be consistent with Coots mix) is not an issue.
 
Rurumo

Rurumo

Well-Known Member
Nwtexan said:
Just for an update-
I have to transplant my plants as they were outgrowing their 3 gallon containers. I gave the soil a couple of weeks with some EWC tea and recharge to get it going. When I opened up my tubs there was a nice Mycelium matt on the top so hopefully it is doing its work as needed.

I amended my soil with a bit of blood meal to get some nitrogen to the plants and added a bit more peat to bring down the PH a bit.
I've got one of the SIPs up and running with plants transplanted and about to do the same for the second one.

Hopefully the high sodium, calcium, and potassium in the mix(which seems to be consistent with Coots mix) is not an issue.
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I'm about ready to mix up a new batch of soil and have it tested, though I think I'll wait to have it tested until I let it marinate for a month. I'm making a few changes from normal Cootz mix, so I'm curious how the testing will look. I think so many of the skewed numbers come from the compost component. I see lots of people with high sodium too, which makes me think of Kelp, but also....there is so much basalt being used, and the sources vary so much. I think the rock dusts might be responsible for a lot of it as well. Anyway, glad you are doing well, I think your grow will do great!
 
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