Drip - overwatering problems. Experienced persons wanted.

You should never water during lights-off. Transpiration all but stops in lights-off and the plants will get by in the moisture in the rootmass.

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I should have been more specific. I actually run my lights at night, 7pm to 1pm for veg cycle, and 7pm to 7am for flowering. So actually, this was done during the lights-on cycle. I haven't been running the pump at all during the lights-off cycle.

I'd prefer 5 min watering durations each hour during lights-on.

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While that would probably be ideal, my timer only allows for 15 min intervals. To do as you suggested, I'd have to get myself a cycle timer.

Yea 4x8 is a pretty big tray to flood but I have seen other guys do it.

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I'm sure guys have done it, it's just that I got into hydro to make growing easier on me (not having to lug dirt, mix up a bunch of 5 gal pots, etc.) So I'd rather not have to deal with getting 100 gal. of R/O water every res change (I have an R/O machine but it'll only output about 10 gal. a day max. so it would take me more than a week to fill the res!)

If you're doing SoG....

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Yes, this is my intention. I have 22 plant sites set up on a 4x8 table (gives me approx. 1 sq.ft. of space per plant). After I clone one of these females, I'll veg them out to about 1 ft. tall, then flower. Is that a good time to switch to 12/12 for SoG?

And if you really want to go with a flood setup, the poster above me Al b. fuct can set you in the right direction. He really knows his shit.

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I know, I've read many a post by Al. B, very knowledgable indeed.

SoG just happens to work well with plants in pots of some sort of media, watered with a flood tray. Allows you to move plants around, remove poor performers, etc. Flood systems are also deadly simple to set up and operate. That simplicity makes them stupidly reliable. Can't clog, easy to clean.

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Makes sense. I could convert easily enough. I'd just take the coroplast covers off my 4x8 table and use my 5 gal pots that I used to soil grow in and fill them 2/3 the way up with hydroton. This would actually displace enough volume on my table so that I could run a smaller res. Question though, obviously the flood table is wide open to the air/lights, would this be a problem for algae growth? Al. B. maybe you could answer this one?

Either way, hopefully I can get my current system fine tuned enough that I don't encounter this problem again. Thanks again, to all those who contibuted to this thread, I'm very greatfull for your help and the wealth of knowledge that many of you posses.

Over and out (for now). I'll keep updating.

dbo24242 said:

the reason I do dwc and not flood is because it doesn't require pumping water and installing fixtures.

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What 'fixtures'?




This is as complex as a flood system needs to be. One pump, one timer, one tank, one tray, one fill & one drain tube from the overflow. Will water any number of plants and is much easier to deal with come bi-weekly nute dump and replacement.

I'm interested in a flood table but dwc eliminates having to flood and drain to waste

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Why drain to waste? Most flood systems don't. They drain into the tank.

and uses nutrients more efficiently.

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Don't know what you mean by that. Flood systems are as efficient with nutes as anything else.

DWC has some specific problems, notably intolerance of power failures. DWC requires airflow 24/7. If you lose AC power for more than a few hours, the roots can be drowned. This can kill all your plants.

To have such objections about a flood system, it doesn't sound to me like you know how a flood system operates.

highpsi said:

I haven't been running the pump at all during the lights-off cycle.

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oh, ok.

While that would probably be ideal, my timer only allows for 15 min intervals. To do as you suggested, I'd have to get myself a cycle timer.

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Just get a digital timer. They allow single minute on-times and multiple programs per day. Any hdwe store has 'em.

So I'd rather not have to deal with getting 100 gal. of R/O water every res change (I have an R/O machine but it'll only output about 10 gal. a day max. so it would take me more than a week to fill the res!)

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Oh, I can help you with that! Don't bother with RO! If you are using municipal tap water, it's not needed. Nothing in city water that's going to hurt a hydro op.

I'll veg them out to about 1 ft. tall, then flower. Is that a good time to switch to 12/12 for SoG?

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If you're going to SoG, you don't veg AT ALL. Once the clones set root, throw them in to your flowering area. If you veg them before flowering, they'll get too tall, defeating the purpose of SoG.

Question though, obviously the flood table is wide open to the air/lights, would this be a problem for algae growth? Al. B. maybe you could answer this one?

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Nah, you're only flooding for 3-4-5 mins, something like that, then the tray drains back to the tank, not enough time to grow any algae.

Just get a digital timer. They allow single minute on-times and multiple programs per day. Any hdwe store has 'em.

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Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely do that.

Oh, I can help you with that! Don't bother with RO! If you are using municipal tap water, it's not needed. Nothing in city water that's going to hurt a hydro op.

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Unfortunately, I'm not on city water, I have a deep water well (around 285ft deep) which has a PH of 8.2 and a TDS of ~200 uS. Unfortunately, it contains a lot of sulfur containing compounds which gives it a rather unpleasant odor (rotten egg type smell), though it is safe to drink. I just figured I'd use the R/O water for my plants since I already had the unit for drinking water anyway. I also wanted to avoid any potential problems that are sometimes associated with well water. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

If you're going to SoG, you don't veg AT ALL. Once the clones set root, throw them in to your flowering area. If you veg them before flowering, they'll get too tall, defeating the purpose of SoG.

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Ok, that would be even better really, as it would save me 2 extra weeks off my cycle. Only thing is, currently I am set up for 1 plant per sq. ft. Would this be efficient use of space of should I go for more density?

Nah, you're only flooding for 3-4-5 mins, something like that, then the tray drains back to the tank, not enough time to grow any algae.

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Makes sense. My rooms RH is usually on the low side anyway (30% to 50% typically), so I guess it isn't much of a concern for me anyway.

highpsi said:

I just figured I'd use the R/O water for my plants since I already had the unit for drinking water anyway.

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Gotcha. As bore water goes, yours isn't too bad. The sulfur content would annoy me for drinking, but the plants will do OK as long as you bring the pH down to 5.8. Sulfur is a micronute, btw.

I am set up for 1 plant per sq. ft. Would this be efficient use of space of should I go for more density?

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You can do up to 4 per sf in SoG. I don't go quite that dense in my op, about 2.6 plants/sq ft.

My rooms RH is usually on the low side anyway (30% to 50% typically)

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Not low, perfect! 30-50% is right where you want a flowering area. Not so low as to encourage spider mite, not so high as to encourage mould. Lucky you.

Check out https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks.html for the workflow in a SoG op.

well the overflow and pump tube fitting are fixtures. now I understand how it works though thanks for that gif it is a good one.

Flood systems are stupidly simple. Can't clog, easy to clean, waters multiple plants with no tubes, drippers, etc. Floods are the ideal recirculating hydro system for new growers and coincidentally ideal for SoG. I run 4x 900x900mm flood trays in my SoG op's flowering area, each with 23 plants. Can you imagine having to manage 92 DWC buckets? Air tubes... air stones... checking them all a couple times a day... dumping & cleaning 92 buckets... Fair go, mate- I'd quit growing dope if that was the only way to do it.

dbo24242 said:

well the overflow and pump tube fitting are fixtures.

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Oh, come on. I'm a stoned slacker and I still managed last week to fit flood & drain fittings to a new tray in about 9 minutes.

Did I mention I blew a half dozen cones and a half gram of hash before going into the workshop? Took me 5 mins to find the Dremel and the sanding drum. The other 4 mins was spent hogging out holes in the tray to install the fittings.

Only downside of growing dope is that now and again you may have to do a bit of w*rk.

Well, I've had my system running with a drip cycle of 15 mins on, every 3 hours (except during lights off) for about 2 days now, but it's still not helping. It seems that the best the plants looked was when I made them go 12 hours without water. I'm starting to think I should go with 1, maybe 2, 15 min drip cycles per day. I don't know what else to do really.

Al. B., Flood and drain is sounding more and more enticing by the day. Though, I'd rather keep what I have going if I can make it work for me. I built my drip system based on a system that was on display at the local hydro store. They were growing cherry tomatoes, and the growth was fantastic. Funny thing is, they had the pump running 24/7. When I first got my system going, I did the same and the growth was out of this world for the first week, then they started to droop and it's been down hill ever since.

Anyway, I have nothing to lose now so I'm going to just set the timer for one 15 min cycle and see where that gets me. I'll keep checking on the plants to make sure they aren't wilting, but right now this seems to be the only viable option. I'll post the results over the next day or so. Wish me luck.

Oh, and thanks Al.b., you've been a great help. At the very least, if drip doesn't work out for me, you've convinced me that flood and drain is the way to go.

Cheers

highpsi said:

I'm starting to think I should go with 1, maybe 2, 15 min drip cycles per day. I don't know what else to do really.

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Get some 50% grade H2O2 and dose your nutes every 3-4 days with 1ml per litre of tank volume. Along with reducing your watering duration and frequency, this should sort it out for you.

They were growing cherry tomatoes, and the growth was fantastic. Funny thing is, they had the pump running 24/7.

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I bet they were running lights 24/7 on the display grow as well.

Anyway, I have nothing to lose now so I'm going to just set the timer for one 15 min cycle and see where that gets me. I'll keep checking on the plants to make sure they aren't wilting, but right now this seems to be the only viable option. I'll post the results over the next day or so. Wish me luck.

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In the short term, that may help, but do go out and get a digital timer that allows single minute runtimes. Between that and applying 50% grade H2O2 as described, your problem should resolve soon.

Oh, and thanks Al.b., you've been a great help. At the very least, if drip doesn't work out for me, you've convinced me that flood and drain is the way to go.

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No worries.

Drip systems can be made to work OK but they're always more maintenance intensive than a flood sys. Make top priorities of the timer replacement and H2O2 application. Should sort it out for now until you get a flood sys going.

Hey Al,
I have my DWC/drip system all ready for construction but am now thinking about going to Ebb and Flow because of what your saying. How much hydrotron do you put under your rockwool? I seem to remember pics with clay pellets. How high does the water get during you flood cycle?
I have a 400w air cooled reflector HPS in a 7'10"h x 3' 6"l x 22" d flower room. How many SOG plants could be fit in there?

Thanks

If you're starting in 40mm RW cubes and using pots of pellets in a flood system, it should look a bit like this:



The main point is to keep the flood level from touching the RW cube. 1/2" is a nominal suggestion. If the pellets are frequently wetted, the roots will seek to them readily.

You can run up to 4 plants per sf in SoG. I don't go quite that dense, 23 pots in each of my 900x900mm trays, about 2.6 per sf.

The flood & drain connectors are available at any hydro shop.

They look sorta like this:


A few bux each.

You should also invest in a proper moulded flood tray. These have drainage channels moulded in as well as bow a bit toward the centre to permit all solution in the tray to drain back to the tank. You can attempt to DIY a tray but you will have leakage and complete drainage problems. Just splash out and get the right stuff. Lasts years.

Al,
Again good advice.

Thanks

no wucking furries, mate.

UPDATE:

Well, it looks like I have the beginning stages of root rot

I wasn't sure at first, but over the past week I've noticed a rather dank musty smell coming from the res and the plants. At first I thought it was just the smell of the plastic in the res or something. I was mistakenly under the impression that root rot was supposed to smell like something dying (garbage smell, smell of rotting vegetables). After doing some research I've been told that the sour musty smell I'm getting is in fact, pythium. uuugh

Now I'm in a bit of a conundrum. Option #1 is to try to salvage the plants somehow. Any suggestions (Al. B. are you out there!)? Option #2 is to dump everything, clean and sterilize everything and start over. Option #1, if successfull, would save me a lot of time and trouble. Option #2 would be a big pain in the ass, would cost me another month, and still doesn't gaurentee that I wouldn't get it again. I'm sort of up shit creek here.

I've heard this is a common problem in hydro (especially with newbies). Can I get some suggestions on this, preferably from someone who's experienced this before.

I just want to set the record straight here and state that I used R/O water as my source water, I used H202 to keep things sterile, I kept my res water at around 19*C (~66*F) and I set my timer on 3 -15 minute cycles per day. So I did everything right on that account.

My only suspicion at this point is idiotically deciding to use drip emitters (2gph), they don't move very much water. I was informed that, in hydro (especially with hydroton), it's almost impossible to over water even with it running 24/7. But I think where the problem is, is the standing puddles that formed on my tray each time th pump would shut off. They would eventually dry up, but I think that's where the disease began (most disease seems to start in standing water so it makes sense). Anyway, I'm ditching the damned emitters and going straight flow. I have a 700GPH magdrive pump, so I should be able to mov quite a bit of water.

Either way, I need some of the good folkes here on RIU to give me some much needed advice on this. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

How much H2O2 are you using, what strength and how often are you dosing the nutes with it?

You should be using 50% grade H2O2 at 1ml/L every 3-4 days.

Now that you appear to have a diagnosed pythium/fusarium thing going on, dump & clean your tanks, mix up a tank of water adjusted to pH 5.8 and bump up the H2O2 to 10ml/L, manually pour about 2L of this strong H2O2 soln through each rootmass, mix up a tank of nutes as usual with H2O2 @ 1ml/L and return to dosing at 1ml/L every 3-4 days. You should begin to see some resolution of the root rot in 7-10 days.

Lemme know how you go.

Al B. Fuct said:

How much H2O2 are you using, what strength and how often are you dosing the nutes with it?

You should be using 50% grade H2O2 at 1ml/L every 3-4 days.

Now that you appear to have a diagnosed pythium/fusarium thing going on, dump & clean your tanks, mix up a tank of water adjusted to pH 5.8 and bump up the H2O2 to 10ml/L, manually pour about 2L of this strong H2O2 soln through each rootmass, mix up a tank of nutes as usual with H2O2 @ 1ml/L and return to dosing at 1ml/L every 3-4 days. You should begin to see some resolution of the root rot in 7-10 days.

Lemme know how you go.

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Al,
What do you think about the products Hygrozyme to break down dead plant matter and Dutch Master Zone for disease prevention?

Also, on a different node... what do you think about Bushmaster to stop the vertical growth? I think it is used in the vegetative phase.

How much H2O2 are you using, what strength and how often are you dosing the nutes with it?

You should be using 50% grade H2O2 at 1ml/L every 3-4 days.

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Al. B. Thanks for the prompt reply.

I'm using 35% horticultural H2O2, so I did as you suggest and added at 1.7ml/L every 3-4 days. I think it was too late at that point anyway, and apparently it didn't help.

Now that you appear to have a diagnosed pythium/fusarium thing going on, dump & clean your tanks, mix up a tank of water adjusted to pH 5.8 and bump up the H2O2 to 10ml/L, manually pour about 2L of this strong H2O2 soln through each rootmass, mix up a tank of nutes as usual with H2O2 @ 1ml/L and return to dosing at 1ml/L every 3-4 days. You should begin to see some resolution of the root rot in 7-10 days.

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I will follow your advice to the letter. Except, I'll use 17ml/L since I'm using 35% H2O2, correct?

I have been reading on other forums, etc. that people have also used chlorine bleach and ran that through their setup (not through the plants). Do you think that would be a more effective way of ridding the pythium?

Anyway, in retrospect, now I know why the plants began to show symptoms at about a week in, this is when the soup began smelling musty. So the pythium has been getting worse ever since, and consequently so have the plants. It all makes sense now Well, at least now I know what to look for, err, smell for. From now on I'll be very weary of any odd smells in the res.

I'm thinking, if the plants make it through this and I can rid myself of this pythium problem, I'll be rid of it for good. Again, like I mentioned earlier, I think it was standing water that caused the inital problem. I tested the system last night, without the drip emitters and it was like a shallow flowing river on the table, no standing water to be found. I'm thinking this will prevent pythium from ever setting in again (along with keeping the res cool and using H2O2). At least I hope so.