F1 vs F2 and beyond

L

LordHill

Well-Known Member
In my research, it seems the best result from a cross is in the first generation (F1 seeds).

With subsequent generations having more variation and kickback to traits of the individual parent plants... Pepper growers shoot for F9 to consider a new strain to be stable, pot growers seem to be happy with F5.. But what is the result of that F5? Why bother stabilizing the strain 5 or 6 generations out if the best it will ever be is in the first generation?

How does Breeding into one's cloned self change these stages? Do S1 thru S5 result in more stability with less genetics at play?
 
Charles U Farley

Charles U Farley

Well-Known Member
In my research, it seems the best result from a cross is in the first generation (F1 seeds).
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Not sure by what you mean by "best result" in an F1?

Given 2 disparate parental units, you get the most variation in the F1 gen and, as long as your selection process is sound, you not only isolate those traits you desire in subsequent generations (frequency) but standardize and make them _consistantly_ reproducible. That doesn't happen in F1's.

F1's ain't the "best", they are just the beginning.
 
Rurumo

Rurumo

Well-Known Member
An f1 crossing of two disparate strains (totally unrelated genetics) can result in heterosis-"hybrid vigor." I think, when you say "best" you are talking about heterosis. So it's true, a lot of vegetable seed companies sell f1 hybrids for this very reason-pure production value. The f1 siblings will also be fairly uniform, however, breed two of those f1 siblings to f2 and you will see wild differences in the f2 offspring. This is why people love f2s for pheno hunting-you can really find interesting specimens at that level. With F3 onward, you will see more and more uniformity in the offspring. Whether or not they are "better" comes down to personal taste and breeder skill in making selections. The f3 might be extremely different than the f1s were, almost a completely different plant, depending on the f2 parent selections. The reason people take crosses further than f1 is to put their own mark on a strain.

Anyone can do a simple f1 cross and call it a "strain" and give it a dumb name. The VAST majority of seeds sold in the popular seedbanks are simple f1 crosses-you don't need any skill at all to make a great f1 cross, but to make an f3 or further than people would actually want to grow, takes skill or luck in selection. I don't consider f5 to be an IBL at all...but if you are looking for hybrid vigor, you could cross that f5 with say, another f5 from a totally different strain, and you could end up with an f1 with hybrid vigor. What I mean to say is, you are MUCH more likely to get the "heterosis" trait in F1 seeds if the parents are unique, "stabilized" lines. Cross two f1s and you might not get hybrid vigor...cross two IBLs or landraces, and you are more likely to see hybrid vigor in the f1s. This is why it's foolish to simply breed random "elite" plants together. The best crosses in my experience are between disparate genetic lines (far apart genetically.)
 
blueberrymilkshake

blueberrymilkshake

Well-Known Member
Rurumo said:
An f1 crossing of two disparate strains (totally unrelated genetics) can result in heterosis-"hybrid vigor." I think, when you say "best" you are talking about heterosis. So it's true, a lot of vegetable seed companies sell f1 hybrids for this very reason-pure production value. The f1 siblings will also be fairly uniform, however, breed two of those f1 siblings to f2 and you will see wild differences in the f2 offspring. This is why people love f2s for pheno hunting-you can really find interesting specimens at that level. With F3 onward, you will see more and more uniformity in the offspring. Whether or not they are "better" comes down to personal taste and breeder skill in making selections. The f3 might be extremely different than the f1s were, almost a completely different plant, depending on the f2 parent selections. The reason people take crosses further than f1 is to put their own mark on a strain.

Anyone can do a simple f1 cross and call it a "strain" and give it a dumb name. The VAST majority of seeds sold in the popular seedbanks are simple f1 crosses-you don't need any skill at all to make a great f1 cross, but to make an f3 or further than people would actually want to grow, takes skill or luck in selection. I don't consider f5 to be an IBL at all...but if you are looking for hybrid vigor, you could cross that f5 with say, another f5 from a totally different strain, and you could end up with an f1 with hybrid vigor. What I mean to say is, you are MUCH more likely to get the "heterosis" trait in F1 seeds if the parents are unique, "stabilized" lines. Cross two f1s and you might not get hybrid vigor...cross two IBLs or landraces, and you are more likely to see hybrid vigor in the f1s. This is why it's foolish to simply breed random "elite" plants together. The best crosses in my experience are between disparate genetic lines (far apart genetically.)
Click to expand...
I googled hybrid vigor. But trust you more than Google on this one haha. Would you explain heterosis in your own words?
 
Rurumo

Rurumo

Well-Known Member
blueberrymilkshake said:
I googled hybrid vigor. But trust you more than Google on this one haha. Would you explain heterosis in your own words?
Click to expand...
The last plant I had with good hybrid vigor was my Old Red Sour that produced 1 lb, in my 4x4 with 3 other plants-it just totally blew the other plants away yield wise and it dominated the tent. When you see a good example of hybrid vigor in cannabis you can see impressive growth rates, health, and yield.
 
D

decrepit digits

Well-Known Member
Charles U Farley said:
This is where I learned the basics until I dug down into R.C.Clark but this is a hell of a lot easier to understand:

F1 vs F2

Creating True Breeding Strain

Don't miss the discussions between Vic High, Mr Soul, and Chimera about breeding cannabis. And if you really want to get down in the weeds, here's a link that describes how Mr Soul created Cinderella 99:

Cubing The Clone
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I will stand by my post in the first link, nothing about breeding F1s vs F2s has changed. But I do try to be more legible now.
 
mudballs

mudballs

Well-Known Member
Check out Cubing The Clone>Applying The Pressure...make sure you're comfortable with pollen first though :eyesmoke:
 
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