Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???

akula · Dec 6, 2012

stumpjumper said:
Wrong, I've grown enough plants to know what those little shaded buds end up being. I haven't always defoliated. Nice try though.

Confirmation bias
Inductive reasoning
Appeal from authority

That's impressive unless you actually were not trying to hit as many logical fallacies as one could.

Let's try this in a different angle ok? Since we can all agree that fan leaves are the main
photosynthesisers, let's discuss the mechanics of botany that prohibit this to benefit the high priority sites, or the
calyxes. In other words, does photosynthesis only benefit local systems?

**edit my phone jacked that up and I can't fix it. My apologies for the spacing.

beginner.legal.growop · Dec 6, 2012

oHsiN666 said:
i want to say this is my best grow to date. the fan leafs usually never got to big or just died off prematurely. well, this round they are huge!! almost too huge. i have heard that fan leafs produce energy which provided the plant growth and nutrient flow. or something along them lines. dont quote me. but i heard they help a lot more then people think. is this true? is it counterproductive to cut off the lower to mid huger larger fan leafs? what if they are blocking light? i have chopped off the lower 40-50% growth. i have topped my plants, or FIMmed i should say, at least 2-3 times. so they are quite bushy. so there is not many fan leafs left, but the ones that are left are big and are blocking light. the ones up top are blocking light to the middle of the plant. i dont want to ruin a quite possibly perfect grow. but i would like light to penetrate better.

Those fan leaves you growers are so fond of removing are basically like sugar factories. They are large for a reason. grabbing the most amount of light and distributing it around the plant. Watch videos by ed rosenthal and other growers who will tell you not to remove them.

stumpjumper · Dec 6, 2012

beginner.legal.growop said:
Those fan leaves you growers are so fond of removing are basically like sugar factories. They are large for a reason. grabbing the most amount of light and distributing it around the plant. Watch videos by ed rosenthal and other growers who will tell you not to remove them.

blah blah blah man.... Have any experience or are you just book smart too?

PJ Diaz · Dec 6, 2012

Uncle Ben said:
Ever wonder why mama nature created such large photon collectors? Ever wonder why she extended those solar collectors into the environment using long arms (petioles)? Dats right kiddies, because long extensions of a large surface area exposes the leaf to photons in the most efficient and effective manner. Mother nature is smart, as opposed to a bunch of dumb asses that are determined to work against her using tricks, gimmicks, and snake oils.

How did mama know we would be growing indoors in small spaces and artificial lights?

PJ Diaz · Dec 6, 2012

akula said:
I posted a story of how anecdotal evidence is subject to confirmation bias with my blackberry bush and this is a prime example of that.

Here think about this for a second. A bud started forming while it was in the shade of a large fan leaf. You come along and notice it is small because it has formed long after the stronger taller older buds up high. So you think you will help it along and remove some of those evil fan leaves that are shading it and, in your assumption, keeping it down. Then you notice (on the bud that you just recently did notice in the first place) that it starts to grow and plump up.

Here is you confirmation bias; you are making an assumption that removing the fan leaf was what allowed this newly grown baby bud to grow. The fact of the matter is that if you had failed to notice, the bud would have also grown.....because all the buds are growing and plumping up. It was small because it was immature. You cannot make the argument that you helped this bud along, because honestly, you have no idea if you did or not. Thats confirmation bias, because you could just as easily make the claim that if you hadnt removed the leaf, the bud would have been 10 times its final size.

This above statement has a preexisting confirmation bias.

Uncle Ben · Dec 7, 2012

beginner.legal.growop said:
Those fan leaves you growers are so fond of removing are basically like sugar factories. They are large for a reason. grabbing the most amount of light and distributing it around the plant. Watch videos by ed rosenthal and other growers who will tell you not to remove them.

Exactly. Read post 356 and 357 on the previous page on what makes a plant tick. Guys like stumpjumper do not have a clue when it comes to hormonal processes and concepts like apical dominance.

UB

Sir.Ganga · Dec 7, 2012

Firstly UB we do not have the intensity the sun has...so comparing peaches to cannabis shows your level of knowledge. If you are not removing leaves in an indoor enviorment you are loosing bud size, not weight. Popcorn buds are due to lack of penatration and good growing practices.

Yes the big leaves are storage divices but at a point they take more energy than they give so by removing them at the right time, not only are you allowing light to penatrate a little deeper into the canopy but secondly and more important it allows for energy transfer to the bud sites.

Your right UB, your leaves have ten times the surface area as bud sites but at a certain point the plant has more important things to worry about like buds and it is at that point leaves should be removed.

Outdoor applications differ completely to Indoor techniques, so if you enjoy trimming all that popcorn and like looking like useless grower who can't grow decent bud then listen to UB advice, personally I like a quick trim of monster buds.

Personally I would rather produce this kind of result then be sitting there for hours on end with all that popcorn bud. Right now with the proper removal one tray of 3 girls produce 36-40zips, thats over 2 pounds from a couple of 600's, I can't even get close to that if I was to leave leaves alone.

Each to their own. Learning from your mistakes is part of the game staying stuck in a rut get you knowhere.

ae86 grower · Dec 7, 2012

the only way any grower reading this thread is going to know if defoiliation works is to try it, i myself was afraid to after reading some threads but decided to give it a go, once i had the hang of it, not taking to many at a time and even just removeing half the offending leaf or bonsaiìng it so the plant doesnt even resemble a cannabis plant i did notice the increae in yeild, popcorn buds but much fatter than they were on the same strain and side by side grows without leafing...

its like topping and cropping etc, some people say do it others that its wrong....

Uncle Ben · Dec 7, 2012

Sir.Ganga said:
Firstly UB we do not have the intensity the sun has...so comparing peaches to cannabis shows your level of knowledge.

You obviously don't shit about my "level of knowledge" but based on your statements, I I know yours. You have noob thought. Grow outdoors. I did recently, and like every inside garden, the lower buds were very airy and light. It's just what happens based on a plant's apical dominance factors. Has NOTHING to do with light.

You and your other ignorant friends are more interested in continuing one of the many lame cannabis forum paradigms than reading a book on horticulture. You see what you want to see, you believe what the herd tells you to believe. Here, read up on the function of a leaf - http://www.preservearticles.com/201106188219/what-are-the-five-most-essential-functions-of-leaf.html

Popcorn buds are due to lack of penatration and good growing practices.[/

Wrong.

Yes the big leaves are storage divices but at a point they take more energy than they give so by removing them at the right time, not only are you allowing light to penatrate a little deeper into the canopy but secondly and more important it allows for energy transfer to the bud sites.

Cannabis leaves are NOT storage devices, roots and stems are (think carrot or celery). Cacti and succulents leaves are storage devices. Cannabis leaves are producers of simple and complex carbos, proteins, etc.......... period.

What's ironical is you guys sit there rant with your anecdotal evidence and to further your argument, post a plant (s) that are chocked full of fan leaves! Hilarious!

View attachment 2433611

Come on now, whatcha waiting for? You need to get to pluckin' !!! Scared LOL?

UB

Murfy · Dec 7, 2012

if defoliation-

is a valid technique, then why the enthusiastic use of pesticide. all those little buggers are doing is defoliating your plant for you. like slave labor.

try this. let the mites eat your plant, and by the end,all the fan leaves will be dead, and falling. i'd bet the ratio of size of popcorn to cola has went up.

think there's any way to get warblers to nest in my flower room?

Uncle Ben · Dec 7, 2012

ae86 grower said:
its like topping and cropping etc, some people say do it others that its wrong....

And not one cannabis forum member has ever referenced a quality, non-partisan empirical study like Author R.C Clarke, "Marijuana Botany" nor have they conducted a bonafide experiment on their own.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't count and like Jorge Cervantes says, "this isn't hearsay, it's science".

Huel Perkins · Dec 7, 2012

Huel Perkins said:
I figured the guys who cut their leaves off might welcome mites into their garden lol.

Murfy said:
if defoliation-

is a valid technique, then why the enthusiastic use of pesticide. all those little buggers are doing is defoliating your plant for you. like slave labor.

try this. let the mites eat your plant, and by the end,all the fan leaves will be dead, and falling. i'd bet the ratio of size of popcorn to cola has went up.

think there's any way to get warblers to nest in my flower room?

Mites are what plants crave!

ae86 grower · Dec 7, 2012

what is sceince without experimentation and the need for truth and the need to dis prove a theroy, if you really want to dis prove this for yourself then you will have to try it and not just go by the book, i respect you ub, alot of your stuff works and works good, but this is a technique that works too, and again not to strip the plant bare but remove the sometimes hugh and othertimes plentyful fan or sun leaves, its no more than would happen should a pest get to them in the wild...

skunkd0c · Dec 7, 2012

PSUAGRO. said:
What a fine example of an ignorant Englishman with his fuck-all assumptions who likes to jerk off to star trek

1) Calm down and relax grower.... you don't come off as a cannabis user with your aggressive attitude IMO/ maybe you should smoke some of those large defoliated buds instead of selling it all......we're just growing weed here, it's not heart surgery----A hardy C3 plant will grow/flower wonderfully just left alone--I don't think your "trees" will suffer in your absence.

2) Felt that the quote was relevant to the presently "well-mannered" discussion going on in here....my bad for trolling....Do I consider it a fact? well this comes from a dutch marijuana botanist(30+ years working in the field)===currently working on the Sativex project as a ..........wait for it........ marijuana botanist.....still won't tell u who he is/ like I said study more

3) If I wrote the quote based on MY OWN EXPERIENCES would you believe it then???......probably call me a cowardly-grower-liar-faggot-nofacts-cocksucker...let's not forget noob..

4)UB may be a prick sometimes but MOST of his methods/advice/suggestions are proven and used in the US AG. industry......Oh wait the AG community wants to harvest smallest yields per acre and use the most resources to do so; RIGHT??lol.......I worked 9 years in the PA wine industry/doesn't mean shit really! but enough too know that MOST of UB's info is practiced on crops.........like I said I don't know why UB even bother's anymore...

You want to continue to "leaf" your girls.....go ahead, but don't spread misinformation that it increases yields.......We only EVER defoliated/applied fungicide when we had extreme RH/rainy seasons at early flowering stages........but that doesn't mean shit either .....you keep removing leaves and i'll allow 300000000+ years of cannabis evolution/natural selection do it's "thing" on mine..... No biggie

LOL no need to use such profanity, mr botanicals

you have started off your comments by instructing me to calm down, then you follow on with lots of childish insults and profanity
seems hypocritical

your text looks more like the rantings from some teenager well rehearsed in gangsta speak, forgive me if your claims lack credibility
something about an expert from Holland .. perhaps i should lay out a red carpet or something
only the other week some chump from this very forum told me that he was the grandchild of Jorge Cervantes

your lack of reading comprehension, perhaps English is not your first language , anyway your ignorance is astounding
i have only suggested that people experiment with their plants and not follow the closed minded words of idiots like YOU
please re-read all my posts so that you may bring yourself upto speed with the rest of us

i hope your plants grow well and you get over whatever problem you have with English people
thank you for your unsolicited semi literate advice
i shall file it along with the rantings from all the other semi literate imbeciles i encounter whilst enjoying this lovely forum

peace

Uncle Ben · Dec 7, 2012

Huel Perkins said:
Mites are what plants crave!

They especially crave ELECTROMYTES!

Uncle Ben · Dec 7, 2012

ae86 grower said:
what is sceince without experimentation and the need for truth and the need to dis prove a theroy, if you really want to dis prove this for yourself then you will have to try it and not just go by the book, i respect you ub, alot of your stuff works and works good, but this is a technique that works too, and again not to strip the plant bare but remove the sometimes hugh and othertimes plentyful fan or sun leaves, its no more than would happen should a pest get to them in the wild...

Tell me, how does the decision to remove a bunch of large photon collectors compare with buds receiving light regarding yields? It makes no botanical sense, only sense to folks driven by dreams, hype, and snake oils.....and so goes the cannabis industry.

If you can verify your claims with scientific data..... field trials replicated 3 times using clones against a control group in a carefully controlled lab setting, bring it on. Like I said, the folks beating their chests the hardest are those who have left the fan leaves on. I think they're only here to argue. Certainly won't prove anything to folks with a broad botanical base.

UB

perdrick l. hapley · Dec 7, 2012

If you think defoliation has never increased yeild in any situation, you have no understanding of the inverse square rule, how ATP and energy storing molecules are transported through plants, or the efficiency with which this is done.

Different plants like different conditions. No two plants are the exact same, even if they are genetic 'clones' because of epigenetics. Read some newer books UB, the world of 'botany' you love so much has left you behind.

purphayz · Dec 7, 2012

remove all shade leaves blocking light n remove all lower branching ive been growing for a while i always get more wieght if properly trained

ae86 grower · Dec 7, 2012

Uncle Ben said:
Tell me, how does the decision to remove a bunch of large photon collectors compare with buds receiving light regarding yields? It makes no botanical sense, only sense to folks driven by dreams, hype, and snake oils.....and so goes the cannabis industry.

If you can verify your claims with scientific data..... field trials replicated 3 times using clones against a control group in a carefully controlled lab setting, bring it on. Like I said, the folks beating their chests the hardest are those who have left the fan leaves on. I think they're only here to argue. Certainly won't prove anything to folks with a broad botanical base.

UB

in a lab ...no, but i have done it with seeds of the same strain in my grow room at home, and as i`m not a botinist or anything like one, mechanic by trade in fact.
but from being into growing for a long time and learning from alot of training on alot of plants and getting yeilds as little as 10g per plant to 60g per plant at a max height of 1ft... with different methods, defoiliating being one i can say it works from actually trying it...

your just nay saying, as you yourself can`t produce any side by side grows to say it doesn`t work... and you haven`t tried it for yourself to see...

akula · Dec 7, 2012

Awesome finally someone who is going to argue using science and logic rather then simply flawed anecdotal examples.

If you dont agree with defoliation....

perdrick l. hapley said:
….you have no understanding of the inverse square rule

I am a little confused on this one. Are you saying that removing fan leaves can decrease the distance of calyxes to the light source? You are going to have to fill me in on exactly how this works. But once you do, please explain how this decrease in distance of the calyxes can overcome this, and then overcome the decrease of those calyxes and sugar leaves photosynthesis power, compared to the fan leaves. I am sure someone here can do the math and figure this one out. I am not that smart to do it myself, and it might take me the rest of the year.

perdrick l. hapley said:
…... how ATP and energy storing molecules are transported through plants

Well I do have a trivial understanding of adenosine triphosphate and how it stores energy and how enzymes will instruct the phosphates to release the eldest part of its group in the production of proteins. What I dont understand is how this would interfere with the translocation and the phloem transport system? I am pretty sure that the phloem system would have no bearing on the adenosine triphosphate process itself. And in fact, in my elementary knowledge, I understand that ATP and the phloems work in conjunction as a system to quickly transport the proteins from the photosynthesis sites to the storage (roots/stems) or a sink, in this case the calyxes. I am unaware of any limitations that take locality into consideration. What I mean is that I am unaware of a smart network, or a limitation to only transport locally in relation to the ATP process. This would take some level of intelligence I do not believe plants posses (though my cannabis plants are pretty damn smart).

Of course most flower or fruit sinks have zero photosynthesis ability and have no issue with this process, or it only working locally. I know cannabis has some photosynthesis ability in the calyxes (basically almost zero) but some limited in the small sugar leaves, but always the most by far in the fan leaves. This is the only job the fan leaves have. Even the sugar leaves are there to provide perches for insects and even trapping for pollen etc. If you have some information on the lower photosynthesizing sugar leaves having a retarding agent, keeping this process local only, I would love to read it.

Fan Leafs. Blockers of Light Or Energy Producers???

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