First time coco, high light and envi. control

getogrow

Well-Known Member
Guess I've got another question, which is, are pH swings important when hand watering? At this point my pH naturally settles to 6.1 after adding nutes so I haven't bothered adjusting it. Wondering if it would be beneficial to go low-medium-high throughout the week? I understand this will likely happen naturally when I switch over to the auto system
The ph is going to swing natually no matter what. you want that. If its going in at 6.1 , i would sure not mess with it. It will swing a bit without adding anything. without any help from you , the ph will go from 5.8 to 7 ish depending on its needs.......coco has plenty of microlife to help you too. Coco is not a hydro medium so it can do more for you then just steal your Ca and Mg.
 

Destroyer of chairs

Well-Known Member
Hi mate, I'm sorry I'm late but I haven't checked in to RIU for a while.

So the first photos were general underfeeding, as you guessed. The rust spots are calcium whilst the rest of the growth is showing a slight magnesium deficiency (yellowing, slight interveinal chlorosis), zinc (new growth leaf twisting), and possibly boron (slightly red-brown hue from the new growth).

The very tops of the plants have a striped yellowing effect which is light stress. You can tell, because the lower leave don't display this. So you were experiencing a combination of not enough nutrient and too much light – which is common under LED for new users. LEDs tend to be stronger than growers give it credit for and it also contains more blue light, which can more easily lead to leaf temp rises and bleaching. It's more common to see this under so-called "veg" lights than flowering lights that have less blue in them.

I used CX nutrients for years and I can tell you that 1ml per litre is not nearly enough. But you are also using the new CX line, and I used the old line (see below).

CX nutrients are designed to mix with typical tap water which usually has some calcium-carbonate and magnesium-carbonate in it (usually from limestone groundwater sources). Likewise tap water usually has some zinc, copper and iron in it from the metal pipes and plumbing. If your water is soft (low EC) then it will be missing a small but significant source of Cal-Mag and you may need to add more – even though CX coco nutes have quite a bit of calicium and magnesium in them already. The problem may be worse in the beginning with fresh coco that's not charged, or it could get worse during the grow as the coco breaks down and its surface area increases, which causes more cation exchange and greater demand for calcium and magnesium.

Nitrogen also helps with magnesium uptake, so low N levels – especially if you are underfeeding – will exacerbate the problem. Higher pH will help cal-mag uptake but will affect heavy metal uptake (iron, zinc, boron, copper etc). pH5.6-5.7 in veg is a good number to aim for, and around 5.8-5.9 in flower.

I used the old CX formula which had dedicated NPK ratios for veg and bloom – the new formula uses a "base" two-part nutrient that must be supplemented during veg and flower. So the base nutrient will not have enough nitrogen for veg and it won't have enough PK for flower – that's why you have to add the Growth enhancer (NPK 11-0-0) during veg and the head master (1-2-2) during flower and mighty bloom PK (0-15-16) during mid-late flower. Those nutrients are designed to be used in conjunction, not separately.

Finally, you need to be careful reading those CX nutrient charts because they can be quite misleading. For example, have a look at the NPK ratios of the Coco A and B below. The ratio is 4-4-5. But have a look at the nutrient chart – the NPK ratio is 6-1-4. So which one is correct? And does the nutrient chart incude all the additives and if so which ones?

Just be careful about which nutrients you think you are giving your plants and what ratios they are, as you may not be giving yourt plants what you think you are. Excessive K, for examnple, will lock out both calcium and magnesium, so if you were just feeding the base nutrient without the Growth Enhancer, that could be your problem there.

View attachment 4777395
U were late but holy damn did Ur reply make up for it! It was easy to read and informative AF.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Guess I've got another question, which is, are pH swings important when hand watering? At this point my pH naturally settles to 6.1 after adding nutes so I haven't bothered adjusting it. Wondering if it would be beneficial to go low-medium-high throughout the week? I understand this will likely happen naturally when I switch over to the auto system
pH swings are normal. In a healthy organic system where the roots are well oxygenated and colonised by beneficial bacteria, pH will always rise (also because the plants are taking up nutrients that lower pH). In an unhealthy, anerobic system, pH will fall as the root zone gets progressively acidic.

The trick is to lower your pH slightly going in, and then let it naturally drift up – this will make certain nutrients available at different pH levels which will broaden the spectrum of nutrient uptake. If you measure your run-off it should be around 1 pH point higer than the pH going in.

I disagree that coco is not a hydroponic medium as it is reasonably inert. There is cation exchange between calcium/magnesium and sodium/potassium, and coco does release more potassium as it gets older and breaks down, but you can't grow in coco without nutrient so I would classify it as very much hydroponic. It has all the characteristics of a hydroponic system with some of the benefits of soil and soilless type media (ie, reasonable nutrient buffer, dense media that retains moisture, and a stable, airy structure for root systems).
 

getogrow

Well-Known Member
Could you let the admins know so they can remove Drain-To-Waste Hydro subsection from the Hydroponics/Aeroponics section?
Prawns post pretty much sums up what i was saying. i usually say "coco is not a hydro medium but can be treated as one without issue". Coco has benefits that most inert mediums do not. So i guess im wording it wrong.

Coco can also be a great part of a good living soil too.
 

twentyeight.threefive

Well-Known Member
Prawns post pretty much sums up what i was saying. i usually say "coco is not a hydro medium but can be treated as one without issue". Coco has benefits that most inert mediums do not. So i guess im wording it wrong.

Coco can also be a great part of a good living soil too.
By definition hydroponic means grown without soil. Coco is not soil, thus it's hydroponic. That's the most simplistic way of putting it. Not much of a grey area there. ;)
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
I think we're all on the same page. The Latin definition of "hydroponics" literally means "water working" – ie, water does all the work (delivers all major nutrients the root system). Any time you are "feeding the water" instead of "feeding the soil" you are growing in hydroponics.

Coco is wonderful stuff. In fact it has almost exactly the same water-retention and drainage properties as perlite – which is why I've never used a coco-perlite mix, as to me it offers several disadvantages over straight coco. Namely, perlite takes up more room and does not compost like coco and offers almost no drainage advantage over properly drained coco.

Perlite can be re-used, but is a PIA to wash after every grow, whereas coco can be reused a number of times simply by adding enzymes (Cannazyme etc) that break down the dead root material and release stored nutrient. If you reuse coco too many times, however, it gets progressively denser as it breaks down and starts to lose its aeration qualities. By then you can use it in your outdoor garden as mulch, compost or soil improver.
 

lazaah

Well-Known Member
Anyone able to advise what's going on here?

Plants had slight N tox going into flower. Now 2nd week flower, problems started showing up end of week 1. Dropped from 2.2EC to 1.8. Necrosis on fan leaf edges, shriveled up growth of lower leaves.

~800ppfd, 28C, 60%RH
1.5ml/L CX A+B and 1ml/L of full range.
EC 1.8 (previously 2.2)
pH currently 6.0 (previously 5.8-6.2 over a week)
2gal airpots
watering 500ml per pot at lights on then at 2hr intervals with final watering 2hrs before lights off.

Some plants are showing light Mg def. The lack of uniform yellowing suggests not N def.
 

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lazaah

Well-Known Member
No add, the 'burn' of the tips could indicate p def or light burn, the withered bottom leaves could indicate N def. Both deficiencies are unlikely at such high EC. However, 400w of led at 18in from the canopy shouldn't be in excess.
 

getogrow

Well-Known Member
Anyone able to advise what's going on here?

Plants had slight N tox going into flower. Now 2nd week flower, problems started showing up end of week 1. Dropped from 2.2EC to 1.8. Necrosis on fan leaf edges, shriveled up growth of lower leaves.

~800ppfd, 28C, 60%RH
1.5ml/L CX A+B and 1ml/L of full range.
EC 1.8 (previously 2.2)
pH currently 6.0 (previously 5.8-6.2 over a week)
2gal airpots
watering 500ml per pot at lights on then at 2hr intervals with final watering 2hrs before lights off.

Some plants are showing light Mg def. The lack of uniform yellowing suggests not N def.
Thats a bad lockout of some sort. too much of something is locking out something else. I have no idea what , but thats the case.
 

lazaah

Well-Known Member
Still stumbling along.

Last res change is was sure I had a bacterial infection. We had a bit of heatwave and I haven't been cleaning out the res between water changes. This lead to a bit of a fart smell in the tank, quicker upward pH shift, and nutrients clouding when mixing. A strong bleach solution fixed the issue.

Plants still having he lockout issue so I tested run off EC tonight. Measured of the charts on my Bluelab. So that confirms a lockout. I'll rectify tomorrow with a thorough flush.

I'm not sure if this has stemmed from to higher EC or not having enough runoff. In #3/2.2gal/8.4L airpots I'm watering 2.5L total from lights on every 3 hrs via 2x 4ml lines. The lines run a bit fast so i might tee them at the ends. I'm not sure how much runoff I'm getting, however. Ive been running at 2.4EC which is probably way high despite manufacturers recommendation

So the plan from here is to get the EC down tomorrow night and start monitoring EC out 2x weekly. I'll be targeting 1.4EC inflow with an outflow of up to +0.2.

I'm then going to adjust my feeding intervals to 500ml @ lights on then +3.5hrs, +3.5, +3.5, +5.5hrs. And work on getting better surface distrobution. This should solve any lack of runoff/ over drying.

Guess I'll report back in in a week! Feel free to leave any feedback on my plan of attack.
 

twentyeight.threefive

Well-Known Member
Plants still having he lockout issue so I tested run off EC tonight. Measured of the charts on my Bluelab. So that confirms a lockout. I'll rectify tomorrow with a thorough flush.

I'm not sure if this has stemmed from to higher EC or not having enough runoff. In #3/2.2gal/8.4L airpots I'm watering 2.5L total from lights on every 3 hrs via 2x 4ml lines. The lines run a bit fast so i might tee them at the ends. I'm not sure how much runoff I'm getting, however. Ive been running at 2.4EC which is probably way high despite manufacturers recommendation
Runoff EC is off the chart due to salt build up.

There are probably pockets of dry coco, as the solution dries it leaves salt pockets. When you water the solution will hit the salts and cause runoff to be off the charts.

You aren't feeding to enough runoff or your watering system isn't distributing the feed evenenly. The issue is compounded by a very high EC. Coco has to stay wet.
 

lazaah

Well-Known Member
Reporting back early as I have seen progression of the issue.

Followed the plan outlined in my previous post. Runoff EC is now stable at 1.4 for the 3 days, pH at 5.8.

Inter-vein yellowing has progressed further up the plants. Now showing on all but the top leaves. First picture shows overall yellowing of the canopy ( in addition to the previous lockout damage), while the second picture shows a top which is off to the side and not under direct light. Regardless, I'm seeing rapid flower sites.

The difference between the two photos suggests to me a mag def. This is given ive corrected the substrate buildup and the yellowing is worse under direct light.

My starting EC is super low tap water. It does not register on my truncheon. I'm wondering despite having a complete nutrient range if I need to use a ca/mg supplement, or if I should just be feeding heavier (e.g. manufacturer recommends 1.8-2.4 EC for flower). I might email them.

Any advise?
 

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twentyeight.threefive

Well-Known Member
How are you adjusting EC? Dilution or less nutrients?

Nutrients should be mixed to manufacturer specifications and diluted down to the EC you want to feed at.

Epsom salts can be added to your nutrient mix to supplement magnesium.
 

getogrow

Well-Known Member
I would not feed more at all, i would back off the light. its too bright for your environment. you should of done this 2 weeks ago. Stick to the 800-1000ppm range right this second. As 2835 says , you can use epson salt for Mag. You shouldnt need extra Ca with tap water and good food.

Overall i think light burnt mainly with some nutrition problems too.
 

getogrow

Well-Known Member
I see 2 folks suggesting Mag. I would sure use it. epson salt only, you dont need "calmag" (thats a watered down version of Ca and Mag)
 

Rurumo

Well-Known Member
I agree with what others have said. I'd lower the EC immediately and water to plenty of runoff each time. I'd also give them epsom salts, but you don't need to go crazy-I'd do 1/4 teaspoon per gallon for a few days then lay off it and give it time to see what happens. At this point I'd also be open to changing out nutrients, it's sort of like hitting a reset button. When I try new nutrients and if things go south, I go back to the Maxibloom KISS method to get things under control-I'd start low, like 400-500 ppm for a week and see how things look. I think the high EC and multi feeds without enough runoff got you into this. I've seen massive buds grown in coco with multi feeds at .8-1 EC. Personally I never go above 1.4
 

lazaah

Well-Known Member
Guys, the EC is low @ 1.4. This equates to 940ppm on the 500 scale. Given the plants appear to be starving and there's no indication of burn I am super hesitant to feed less. Im also feeding at the lowest reccomended dosage the manufacturer reccomends (1-3ml/L). My bonsai mums of which are a 10th of the size are happily taking 0.8EC.

When @Prawn Connery was running this manufacturer he was feeding at 3ml per litre.

@twentyeight.threefive , I use their website calculator as this adjusts the part volumes to ensure correct ratios according to priority while meeting the EC target. So I make the solution using their ratios, then dilute down.

@Rurumo, Maxibloom isn't an option where I live. The only other available option for me would be to switch to Canna A+B.

Lowering the light levels here seems like the easy way out. I'm already running at approx <600ppfd at the canopy, or 400w per sq meter, which is pretty average.

Given the tops receiving less light are showing less mag deficiency, it's actually suggesting to me that I'm simply just not feeding enough.

The previous lockout issues arose from not attaining proper runoff and excessive dry cycles over probably two months vegging. Ive solved that issue as far as im aware. I do not believe they arose from too strong of a nutrient solution per se.

Given this is presenting as early stage mag def, im going to foliage feed with Epsom salts immediately. I'm going to wait a couple of days to see the response. If the leaves green up I'm going to then increase my EC to 1.8. If they do not green up I will lower the EC to 1.0.

This is the most reasonable course of action I can think of at this point.

Ah the joys of learning a full new system!
 
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