Frustrated newbie with seedlings.

Hey all,

This is my second attempt at a first grow. Let me tell you a bit about what I have going on at the moment.

I have a small cab. I'm currently keeping my three seedlings under four 23w CFL bulbs at roughly 3" away. Proper ventilation. The temps are at a steady 79F with 45-50% humidity. I water every other day. Each plant gets about two tablespoons of 6.5 pH'd water each. The soil I'm using is Kellogg's Patio potting mix.

Things started out great, but I'm running into the same problem I had last time. After about four or five days, my true leaves begin to droop. I don't know what the hell I'm doing wrong. Over-watering? Possibly, but I've been very careful not to do this.

Am I worrying for nothing?

Overwatering IMO

mr.schroederific said:

Overwatering IMO

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That's what it looks like to me too. At the same time, however, I water just as I described above. I also do the first-knuckle test beforehand.

zachyweezer88 said:

The soil I'm using is Kellogg's Patio potting mix.

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I agree with overwatering. Do you have holes in the bottoms of those cups? You should let them dry and feel fairly light before watering. You don't want to treat it like a houseplant and add a little water every day. Cannabis likes wet/dry cycles. Soil ph rises as it dries too. So, if you don't let it dry, it's like keeping it in a more acidic soil, reducing the range of nutrients that are available (at different ph).

I haven't seen anyone growing in straight Kellogg Patio Plus. I use it, but only 20% mixed with 60% Pro-Mix HP (peat and perlite) and 20% perlite. It seems way too dense and heavy. It also has nutrient content which interferes with the way I like to supply all the nutrients through my waterings. My mix is here. It's very light and airy soil. It works really well. You can see the MiracleGro I'm doing with it (linked in that page). You can also see the texture of the soil in that page.

At a minimum I would add 50% perlite to Kellogg PP. But, it seems too barky. I like adding peat to get a fluffier soil. And, Pro-Mix has 30-40% perlite, so that's why I only add 20% (to basically add 50/50 Kellogg PP and perlite).

az2000 said:

I agree with overwatering. Do you have holes in the bottoms of those cups? You should let them dry and feel fairly light before watering. You don't want to treat it like a houseplant and add a little water every day. Cannabis likes wet/dry cycles. Soil ph rises as it dries too. So, if you don't let it dry, it's like keeping it in a more acidic soil, reducing the range of nutrients that are available (at different ph).

I haven't seen anyone growing in straight Kellogg Patio Plus. I use it, but only 20% mixed with 60% Pro-Mix HP (peat and perlite) and 20% perlite. It seems way too dense and heavy. It also has nutrient content which interferes with the way I like to supply all the nutrients through my waterings. My mix is here. It's very light and airy soil. It works really well. You can see the MiracleGro I'm doing with it (linked in that page). You can also see the texture of the soil in that page.

At a minimum I would add 50% perlite to Kellogg PP. But, it seems too barky. I like adding peat to get a fluffier soil. And, Pro-Mix has 30-40% perlite, so that's why I only add 20% (to basically add 50/50 Kellogg PP and perlite).

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Great information. Thank you!

Yeah, I drilled a few holes in the bottoms of the cups. I guess I'll wait a day or so before watering again. It's just difficult trying to gauge the dryness of the soil. People have their preferred methods (like the knuckle thing), but it's not wise to put complete faith in any single one. After starting this thread, I found a moisture meter in our garage. I'm not quite sure the significance of the numbers or what the range is, but I placed it barely into the top of my soil and got a reading of 0. Ok, that makes sense. I could feel no moisture myself. Sticking it 2/3 of the way down, however, I got a reading of like 1.5. So, yeah, it's not completely dry. Maybe soon I'll get a feel for this. It's definitely more difficult than I anticipated. Oh well. I like a challenge.

I did a little research on Kellogg PP before buying and read about a couple of people using the soil exclusively with pretty good results. One dude said he tested the pH and it was well within the acceptable range for growing weed. I just cut it with plenty of perlite (40% or so). I'll check out your mix, although I don't think Pro-Mix is available in my area. Anyway, I've heard of Kellogg's being compared to FFOF, Would you say that it's at least comparable?

zachyweezer88 said:

Hey all,

This is my second attempt at a first grow. Let me tell you a bit about what I have going on at the moment.

I have a small cab. I'm currently keeping my three seedlings under four 23w CFL bulbs at roughly 3" away. Proper ventilation. The temps are at a steady 79F with 45-50% humidity. I water every other day. Each plant gets about two tablespoons of 6.5 pH'd water each. The soil I'm using is Kellogg's Patio potting mix.

Things started out great, but I'm running into the same problem I had last time. After about four or five days, my true leaves begin to droop. I don't know what the hell I'm doing wrong. Over-watering? Possibly, but I've been very careful not to do this.

Am I worrying for nothing?

Click to expand...

wait at least every other day to water. when you transplant use some perlite 70 to 30 of soil will keep from overwatering on top of other things. first leaves on bottom usually fall off depending on strain.

I haven't used any FF products. I'm not a fan of cannabis-themed stuff like that. FF soils seem dense/heavy like my impression of Kellogg PP. If you added 40% perlite you should be good. (That's the feeling I get when I see FF soils in photos, that they need 40%. I just like good drainage and aeration.).

The container should feel light when you lift it. But, for seedlings you may need to dig your pinky finger into the soil and feel if there's moisture 3/4 - 1" down. When a plant is grown into a container you can go by the weight of the container (it should feel alarmingly light). But, when a plant hasn't grown into a container yet, you have to balance the weight with the surface moisture.

This isn't a matter of personal style or preference. Cannabis will struggle if you don't let the soil dry enough. But, it's hard to find a good balance when they're seedlings.

I would have also filled the cup to about 1/2" below the rim. Maybe being recessed like yours doesn't matter. But, to me, it doesn't look comfortable.

Madagascar said:

wait at least every other day to water. when you transplant use some perlite 70 to 30 of soil will keep from overwatering on top of other things. first leaves on bottom usually fall off depending on strain.

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Thanks, Madagascar. I know it's almost impossible for you to give me any sort of definitive answer to this, but do you think I'm on the right track giving just 2 tablespoons at each watering?

zachyweezer88 said:

Thanks, Madagascar. I know it's almost impossible for you to give me any sort of definitive answer to this, but do you think I'm on the right track giving just 2 tablespoons at each watering?

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You want to water until you get runoff. Then leave it alone until it dries (feel the weight, dig your pinky into the soil.).

zachyweezer88 said:

Great information. Thank you!

Yeah, I drilled a few holes in the bottoms of the cups. I guess I'll wait a day or so before watering again. It's just difficult trying to gauge the dryness of the soil. People have their preferred methods (like the knuckle thing), but it's not wise to put complete faith in any single one. After starting this thread, I found a moisture meter in our garage. I'm not quite sure the significance of the numbers or what the range is, but I placed it barely into the top of my soil and got a reading of 0. Ok, that makes sense. I could feel no moisture myself. Sticking it 2/3 of the way down, however, I got a reading of like 1.5. So, yeah, it's not completely dry. Maybe soon I'll get a feel for this. It's definitely more difficult than I anticipated. Oh well. I like a challenge.

I did a little research on Kellogg PP before buying and read about a couple of people using the soil exclusively with pretty good results. One dude said he tested the pH and it was well within the acceptable range for growing weed. I just cut it with plenty of perlite (40% or so). I'll check out your mix, although I don't think Pro-Mix is available in my area. Anyway, I've heard of Kellogg's being compared to FFOF, Would you say that it's at least comparable?

Click to expand...

I read the plant if that makes sense. With time, you'll know when they need water. Almost like when you get thirsty. They become an extension of you.... I know, it's weird.

Great information in this thread. Thanks again y'all.

I didn't check my plants until roughly four in the afternoon today. The one that you all saw doesn't look any worse and possibly has improved just a hair. Once the shock of having had too much water subsides, will the leaves perk up again, possibly telling me "hey, time for another light drink"?

I thought it was worth mentioning that there is now a very light yellowing of the serrated edges on my true leaves. Is this another sign of over-watering? If so, well, damn! We're talking about two carefully measured tablespoon feedings every other day. It's not like I was emptying a bottle of Dasani on each plant twice a day!

zachyweezer88 said:

will the leaves perk up again, possibly telling me "hey, time for another light drink"?

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The leaves may perk up. But, that's not an indicator that it's time to water. Lift the container. (Poke your finger in the soil 3/4-1" to feel if it's still moist too if you aren't sure about the weight, or if it's been awhile. When a plant hasn't grown into a container, it may stay wet/heavy deeper inside, but dry out 1" at the top. That's when it's a little challenging to know when to water. It can be useful to mist the top soil, but you have to be careful of keeping it too wet because of a problem called damping off. You don't want to mist all the time and cause that, nor lose sight of how the lower part of the soil may dry even though you're wetting the top.).

zachyweezer88 said:

I thought it was worth mentioning that there is now a very light yellowing of the serrated edges on my true leaves. Is this another sign of over-watering?

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It's probably the Kellogg Patio Plus. It has nutrients built into it. You may be seeing nutrient burn. I suggest mixing 20% PP with 60% Pro-Mix HP+Myco and 20% Perlite.

A photo would help determine if that's the problem, or something residual from being too wet too long(?).

az2000 said:

You want to water until you get runoff. Then leave it alone until it dries (feel the weight, dig your pinky into the soil.).

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This is even the case with seedlings? I've had a couple of people on here tell me that very small amounts of water are what you want.

zachyweezer88 said:

This is even the case with seedlings? I've had a couple of people on here tell me that very small amounts of water are what you want.

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As I said in #7, it's a balancing act when the plant hasn't grown into the container yet. My concern about 2tbps each watering is how you know when a watering is necessary. Weight and finger test. In the first week the top 3/4" can dry out while the remaining depth is saturated. I spray with a spray bottle to get some water into the top.

But, the goal is for the container to become light and give it a good watering, then step back and let it dry.

Most new growers err on the side of overwatering. That's what I was trying to caution against. But, yes, you have to deal with a balancing act for the first week-10 days. Let the top 3/4" dry, then wet (but not so much that you're adding water to the rest of the container). If the rest of the container becomes light, then water for a bit of runoff and leave it alone.

What comes to mind is a member who recently posted photos of lovely seedlings which fell over dead. From what I could gather, he had been focused on keeping the top of the soil moist, and didn't notice the bottom soil below that had dried out. It seemed the plants grew into the container, couldn't find water, and gave up almost immediately. That could be a risk if you focus only on keeping the plant wet with 2tbsp. You should be aware of the container weight so you know when it needs a complete watering. Moistening the topsoil should be a limited activity, and not enough to replenish the soil undernearth. (If the soil underneath needs watering, then do a real watering. That's the goal, to get to that point, not to avoid it.).

az2000 said:

As I said in #7, it's a balancing act when the plant hasn't grown into the container yet. My concern about 2tbps each watering is how you know when a watering is necessary. Weight and finger test. In the first week the top 3/4" can dry out while the remaining depth is saturated. I spray with a spray bottle to get some water into the top.

But, the goal is for the container to become light and give it a good watering, then step back and let it dry.

Most new growers err on the side of overwatering. That's what I was trying to caution against. But, yes, you have to deal with a balancing act for the first week-10 days. Let the top 3/4" dry, then wet (but not so much that you're adding water to the rest of the container). If the rest of the container becomes light, then water for a bit of runoff and leave it alone.

What comes to mind is a member who recently posted photos of lovely seedlings which fell over dead. From what I could gather, he had been focused on keeping the top of the soil moist, and didn't notice the bottom soil below that had dried out. It seemed the plants grew into the container, couldn't find water, and gave up almost immediately. That could be a risk if you focus only on keeping the plant wet with 2tbsp. You should be aware of the container weight so you know when it needs a complete watering. Moistening the topsoil should be a limited activity, and not enough to replenish the soil undernearth. (If the soil underneath needs watering, then do a real watering. That's the goal, to get to that point, not to avoid it.).

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I appreciate the thorough post, az2000. So, it's wet/dry cycles from now on. It had been awhile yesterday evening, so I watered all my seedlings until 20% runoff. They're still growing, although none of the first true leaves have perked back up. What comforts me though is the fact that the second sets are looking eager to grow with tips pointed straight to the light. Is it normally the case with young plants that some types of damage, over-watering in this instance, will never be completely healed, at least in terms of looks? Hopefully that made sense.

Germination and the first 10 days after sprouting are the most stressful for me. After that, you have to really try to kill the plant (if you've got decent soil, not overfeeding, understand your water). I feel like a boss for most of the grow. But, for two weeks I'm really stressed expecting things to go wrong, not know which course of action to take (because you have to balance things, it's hard to know what's too much, too dry, too wet.).

My current MiracleGro grow was stressful those days because I used a Jiffy Pellet for the first time, and it's sloppy too-wet. So, I had this wet blob sitting in my well-drained, airy soil, having to weigh keeping the airy soil pleasant for the roots that might be entering it, while hoping that wet mass would dry a little -- expecting "damp off." I felt like my first grow again.).

Try to err on the side of keeping it too dry (because it's common for new growers to err on the side of too constantly wet, like a houseplant). But, then I think of that guy who (it appeared) had kept the top soil misted -- but the bottom dried out as he watched his seedling develop. He lost sight of reaching that point where it's time to saturate and back away, let it do it's thing.

I'm fighting with that right now with the MG grow. I usually transplant from 22oz seedling container to a #1 ("1gal," but it's really 0.58gal.). It grows into that very quickly and there's no period of "wet at the bottom, drying too much at the top." I can continue the "thoroughly dry" momentum pretty well. (Then I go #1 to #3, "3gal" that's 2.32gal.).

This time I thought I would not grow a big one. I thought I'd go directly to #2 ("2gal" which is 1.61gal.). That's created a seedling-like condition where the bottom is still wet while the top dries down to 1" -- and I think it needs some moistening in case any roots have been probing that level of soil. (By the end of flower, it's a mat of roots that far down.).

So, I spray to moisten the top soil and let it keep going (without a watering). But, it's never clear how much I should spray. I don't want water running through, going to the bottom which I want to dry more (because the container feels too heavy). But, I don't want the center to dry too much either.

I sprayed 15-18 hours ago because it was dry at the top, but too heavy for a watering. I just sprayed again a moment ago because it's still a little heavy. I'll spray a little more before lights out (in 4 hours) and it will be ready for watering when lights come on in 10 hours.

I could probably water now (instead of the second spray). But, I felt like I watered too soon last time. And, I don't like watering so close to lights out.

So, it's a balancing act like that. Even at the seedling stage you have to use some intuition/common sense about balancing risks. Maybe erring on the side of too wet once, then too dry.

az2000 said:

I haven't used any FF products. I'm not a fan of cannabis-themed stuff like that. FF soils seem dense/heavy like my impression of Kellogg PP. If you added 40% perlite you should be good. (That's the feeling I get when I see FF soils in photos, that they need 40%. I just like good drainage and aeration.).

The container should feel light when you lift it. But, for seedlings you may need to dig your pinky finger into the soil and feel if there's moisture 3/4 - 1" down. When a plant is grown into a container you can go by the weight of the container (it should feel alarmingly light). But, when a plant hasn't grown into a container yet, you have to balance the weight with the surface moisture.

This isn't a matter of personal style or preference. Cannabis will struggle if you don't let the soil dry enough. But, it's hard to find a good balance when they're seedlings.

I would have also filled the cup to about 1/2" below the rim. Maybe being recessed like yours doesn't matter. But, to me, it doesn't look comfortable.

Click to expand...

Me personally I use Espoma Seed Starter Espoma Potting Mix FFOF and Roots Organic. Because Ive have experience with it also under certain circumstances. Right now Im using FFoF to finish out my veg cycle. Then its Roots and FFoF together. But i believe what helps me is the consistant water and feed schedule. One water a week one feed a week. No matter what. And i never go near full strength.

I always had issues with straight in dirt. I start mine in a shot glass of distilled water. Once they have about a half inch I soak a cube in straight tap water and pull it apart setting the seed in the there. Then they go into a dome with a heating pad. I set milk caps between the dome and the pad because it gets too hot. Airing the dome out once or twice a day. Seeds and clones do well in the high humidity.