Help me compile a list of methods needing research!

Auzzie07

Auzzie07

Well-Known Member
So I was thinking about all these different methods of growing/increasing yields, and how a lot of them are not backed up by any sort of data (at least on this forum 9 times out of 10). The researcher side of me wanted to do some digging for data. With this being said, I'll throw a couple out there, and help me add to the list:

1.) Defoliation
2.) Flushing vs. Not-Flushing
3.) Superthrive
4.) Molasses
5.) Your turn...
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
Auzzie07 said:
So I was thinking about all these different methods of growing/increasing yields, and how a lot of them are not backed up by any sort of data (at least on this forum 9 times out of 10). The researcher side of me wanted to do some digging for data. With this being said, I'll throw a couple out there, and help me add to the list:

1.) Defoliation
2.) Flushing vs. Not-Flushing
3.) Superthrive
4.) Molasses
5.) Your turn...
Click to expand...
Mark defoliation off your list. Flushing in soil is a fools errand. Microbes in well maintained soil love molasses. I would add supercropping, SCROG and LST if you need to investigate good methods of increasing yield.
 
Auzzie07

Auzzie07

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
Mark defoliation off your list. Flushing in soil is a fools errand. Microbes in well maintained soil love molasses. I would add supercropping, SCROG and LST if you need to investigate good methods of increasing yield.
Click to expand...
I'm not opposed to marking them off my list, but first you have to show me a scholarly article which can back up a claim. And also, make a claim in regards to defoliation (I assume you are against it).

Supercropping I will definitely research, but SCROg and LST (which are nearly the same thing...although I do conceded there are differences) can be, and have been, proven time and time again. I will try to find a scholarly source to validate the claims.
 
Auzzie07

Auzzie07

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
Mark defoliation off your list. Flushing in soil is a fools errand. Microbes in well maintained soil love molasses. I would add supercropping, SCROG and LST if you need to investigate good methods of increasing yield.
Click to expand...
And in regards to defoliation, I did find an interesting tidbit that one might not assume:

"Removal of foliage markedly decreased the sugar and dry matter content of the fruit and reduced the concentration of sugars and total solids in the expressed sap. Retention of lateral shoots increased the content of sugars and total dry matter in the fruit. The titratable acid of expressed juices was not affected by the treatments. Severe defoliation resulted in better grade fruit and reduced the proportion of irregularly coloured fruit, but at the expense of a marked reduction in yield."

Title The effect of defoliating tomato plants on fruit composition. Authors
DAVIES, J. N.; MASSEY, D. M.; WINSOR, G. W.
Book Annual Report Glasshouse Crops Research Institute 1957 1959 pp. 53-66 pp.

Layman's terms:

While defoliation does indeed make a plant produce less sugar and yield less, it did make irregular colored fruit less frequent while improving grade.
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
Auzzie07 said:
I'm not opposed to marking them off my list, but first you have to show me a scholarly article which can back up a claim. And also, make a claim in regards to defoliation (I assume you are against it).

Supercropping I will definitely research, but SCROg and LST (which are nearly the same thing...although I do conceded there are differences) can be, and have been, proven time and time again. I will try to find a scholarly source to validate the claims.
Click to expand...
I would retort show me a scholarly article that proves defoliation of a plant increases its yield or potency. It seems common practice amongst experienced growers (meaning more than a few plants a few times) that removing fan leaves is not only not useful but decreases overall bud weight. It's like wanting automobiles (buds) but shutting the factories (fan leaves) down one at a time before the cars are all completed.
 
Meast007

Meast007

Active Member
Sometimes people make it harder than what it has to be, you want something to do something, give it what it needs to do it. You can always ask for opinions yet use common knowledge. What do plants need to grow? Light, Hydration, and nutrition, yeah LST and defoliation can manipulate the plant to do certain things and maybe make some minor tweaks here and there yet that is not going to change a plants DNA to make it grow bigger. Just make sure its happy and healthy! Or try a chemical that switches the plant to think something (its going to die soon so the fruit needs to ripen faster) then you speed up a reaction, not make it bigger. Good genetics make good genetics look at selective breeding. Try Mother Of All Blooms im trying it this grow plus its cheap $15 all you can do in the end is try each technique you like the best and keep doing it good luck!
 
333maxwell

333maxwell

Active Member
1. Defoliation.. sure, there is a time and a place and a reason to do some leaf maintenance, especially with lower light, lower plant (T-5, CFL grows).

2. Flushing vs Not flushing...... Flushing is a corrective action and should be avoided unless needed. At the end a flush is fine if it makes one feel better, however I prefer to just back off feedings a bit at the end.

3. Superthrive.... Does praying help? If you think it does it might. Take it or leave it. I'd suggest mostly for cloning if that is all you have for a bit of hormone, and then you can clone fine without it anyone. *If you do use Superthrive, when I played with it, it was awfully acidic, make sure you are PH'ing if you decide to use it. I'd also on a gut instinct not use it once you have established flower. Although I doubt it would matter one way or another significantly.

4. Molasses ... ya, ok.. whatever.. there is a bit of science as to why it can help, there is also reasons it can hurt. If you use it make sure it is soil (or at least not hydro.. I've read cat's doing that.. ick) and maybe save it for the last few weeks. It is VERY acidic and even with a lot of lime in your soil and PH'd water, it will drive your soil acids way up when it starts drying out.. so if you use it, less is more, see how the plant responds. I only know one fact about the stuff.. different plants respond a bit differently to it, less is more until the plant tells you how it's grooving.

5. My turn.. ha, never give a guy like me a turn.. I'll talk shit all day long and you will never get a word in edge wise.


----

Those are my takes after many years of tooling around... I have the luxury of not having to grow anymore for awhile.. but when I did and will again, my final conclusion is once again, less is more. Grass likes good soil, not to be water stressed, reasonable light, enough to eat to grow and not much more.


Everyone else's own mileage may vary, there are a ton of techniques and a ton of neat ways to grow excellent grass. Patience, less is more and hands off as much as possible.. that's my shtick.

Peace..
 
333maxwell

333maxwell

Active Member
hotrodharley said:
I would retort show me a scholarly article that proves defoliation of a plant increases its yield or potency. It seems common practice amongst experienced growers (meaning more than a few plants a few times) that removing fan leaves is not only not useful but decreases overall bud weight. It's like wanting automobiles (buds) but shutting the factories (fan leaves) down one at a time before the cars are all completed.
Click to expand...
In my anecdotal experience.. when growing under low light and LST, removing the older large fan leaves on the top canopy 'after' fruit is established, is a fine way to establish lower growth that otherwise just kind of does 'ok'. For me from what I do anyway, it makes the top buds grow much fatter as light is hitting them up on the sides now too.. otherwise low light grows tend to have buds that start growing out the sides more than the top, but only on the sides, while the stuff in the middle just does' ok'.

You know.. one plant all LST'd and super cropped under low lights with a thick ol canopy.. but they are older leaves.. almost have to do it just to get some circulation in there as well,.


just my thoughts..
 
Ninjabowler

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
Im reading this and thinking this would make a good poll.

im also wondering if this is going to go anywhere or if were wasting our breath. Is there going to be comparitive tests done to conclude this brainstorm?

if there is tests to be done im adding - nitrogen in flower, and low vs high ppm (pounding with fertz or running med-low)
 
Auzzie07

Auzzie07

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
I would retort show me a scholarly article that proves defoliation of a plant increases its yield or potency. It seems common practice amongst experienced growers (meaning more than a few plants a few times) that removing fan leaves is not only not useful but decreases overall bud weight. It's like wanting automobiles (buds) but shutting the factories (fan leaves) down one at a time before the cars are all completed.
Click to expand...

While I do agree with you, I'm just trying to point to scholarly sources. That's an argumentative fallacy called 'shifting the burden of proof' by the way.
 
Auzzie07

Auzzie07

Well-Known Member
Meast007 said:
Sometimes people make it harder than what it has to be, you want something to do something, give it what it needs to do it. You can always ask for opinions yet use common knowledge. What do plants need to grow? Light, Hydration, and nutrition, yeah LST and defoliation can manipulate the plant to do certain things and maybe make some minor tweaks here and there yet that is not going to change a plants DNA to make it grow bigger. Just make sure its happy and healthy! Or try a chemical that switches the plant to think something (its going to die soon so the fruit needs to ripen faster) then you speed up a reaction, not make it bigger. Good genetics make good genetics look at selective breeding. Try Mother Of All Blooms im trying it this grow plus its cheap $15 all you can do in the end is try each technique you like the best and keep doing it good luck!
Click to expand...
Appreciate the input, but not quite what I'm trying to do with this thread!
 
Auzzie07

Auzzie07

Well-Known Member
333maxwell said:
1. Defoliation.. sure, there is a time and a place and a reason to do some leaf maintenance, especially with lower light, lower plant (T-5, CFL grows).

2. Flushing vs Not flushing...... Flushing is a corrective action and should be avoided unless needed. At the end a flush is fine if it makes one feel better, however I prefer to just back off feedings a bit at the end.

3. Superthrive.... Does praying help? If you think it does it might. Take it or leave it. I'd suggest mostly for cloning if that is all you have for a bit of hormone, and then you can clone fine without it anyone. *If you do use Superthrive, when I played with it, it was awfully acidic, make sure you are PH'ing if you decide to use it. I'd also on a gut instinct not use it once you have established flower. Although I doubt it would matter one way or another significantly.

4. Molasses ... ya, ok.. whatever.. there is a bit of science as to why it can help, there is also reasons it can hurt. If you use it make sure it is soil (or at least not hydro.. I've read cat's doing that.. ick) and maybe save it for the last few weeks. It is VERY acidic and even with a lot of lime in your soil and PH'd water, it will drive your soil acids way up when it starts drying out.. so if you use it, less is more, see how the plant responds. I only know one fact about the stuff.. different plants respond a bit differently to it, less is more until the plant tells you how it's grooving.

5. My turn.. ha, never give a guy like me a turn.. I'll talk shit all day long and you will never get a word in edge wise.


----

Those are my takes after many years of tooling around... I have the luxury of not having to grow anymore for awhile.. but when I did and will again, my final conclusion is once again, less is more. Grass likes good soil, not to be water stressed, reasonable light, enough to eat to grow and not much more.


Everyone else's own mileage may vary, there are a ton of techniques and a ton of neat ways to grow excellent grass. Patience, less is more and hands off as much as possible.. that's my shtick.

Peace..
Click to expand...
Again, appreciate your response, but I was trying to get people to raise ideas, or post scholarly articles. If you can back up some of the stuff you said (most of which I totally agree with) with a source, I would love to read it! Thanks!
 
HeartlandHank

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
1) Providing plants with adequate growing conditions
2) Feeding your plants what they want
3) Selecting high yielding genetics.
4) Efficiently filling your canopy (#3 will cover this if you select well)

That's all you need. If you are lacking on any of these 4, imo, looking to increase your yields in other areas is time that could have been better spent working on these 4..... as your maximum potential will come from fulfilling these 4. After you have these 4 go ahead and look for new tricks.

I don't think very many people have fulfilled these 4 yet. I certainly have not,.
 
hotrodharley

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
Auzzie07 said:
While I do agree with you, I'm just trying to point to scholarly sources. That's an argumentative fallacy called 'shifting the burden of proof' by the way.
Click to expand...
Sadly there is a real lack of TRUE scholarly articles on cannabis techniques due to the illegality of the plant worldwide. Additionally I have never seen a real control experiment documented with test versus control plants.
 
333maxwell

333maxwell

Active Member
Ninjabowler said:
if there is tests to be done im adding - nitrogen in flower
Click to expand...
I did it all the time.. Up until the last 4 weeks just mostly regular feedings, towards the end I will swap over to a bloom oriented food but there is plenty of nitrogen still (I found Jacks basic flowering plant food to be my 'go to' when I wasn't toying with organics, it still has half the nitrogen of veg food).

Plants always seem to respond very well and without the continuous nitrogen the plant weakens quicker and drops leaves faster.. all the things I don't want.. I just back off feedings at the end.


But that's just me..
 
Auzzie07

Auzzie07

Well-Known Member
Ninjabowler said:
Im reading this and thinking this would make a good poll.

im also wondering if this is going to go anywhere or if were wasting our breath. Is there going to be comparitive tests done to conclude this brainstorm?

if there is tests to be done im adding - nitrogen in flower, and low vs high ppm (pounding with fertz or running med-low)
Click to expand...
While a poll would be interesting to gauge RIU'ers conceptions, it does not base itself in fact or science. The goal here is hard data, facts, and tests of methodologies (performed by professionals, not closet cannabis growers). Not to say that no one around here isn't capable of proving hypotheses, but in the world of academia there is a phrase, "Publish or perish", meaning if someone in the academic field of X (be it botany, physics, et. al) doesn't publish an article in their field, their career is doomed to fail. Essentially this weeds the good researchers from the bad; this is not a protocol for RIU'ers.

Again, I really appreciate the responses, and am willing to put in the legwork to find the research myself, I'm just simply looking for more polarized methodologies.

Cheers!
 
Auzzie07

Auzzie07

Well-Known Member
HeartlandHank said:
1) Providing plants with adequate growing conditions
2) Feeding your plants what they want
3) Selecting high yielding genetics.
4) Efficiently filling your canopy (#3 will cover this if you select well)

That's all you need. If you are lacking on any of these 4, imo, looking to increase your yields in other areas is a waste of time... as your maximum potential will come from fulfilling these 4. After you have these 4 go ahead and look for new tricks.
Click to expand...
#2 is vague.
 
Auzzie07

Auzzie07

Well-Known Member
hotrodharley said:
Sadly there is a real lack of TRUE scholarly articles on cannabis techniques due to the illegality of the plant worldwide. Additionally I have never seen a real control experiment documented with test versus control plants.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but we could just look into the world of botany itself. Cannabis shares many growing traits with a variety of other plants. We could look into tomatoes, peppers, etc and use that data to surmise its effects on cannabis. This is done all the time in the science realm when things are tested on chimps, mice/rats, etc.
 
HeartlandHank

HeartlandHank

Well-Known Member
Auzzie07 said:
#2 is vague.
Click to expand...
It is a little vague...
Feeding your plants in a way that leaves no deficiences, no toxicity and no leaf necrosis.
My best yields to date were from a crop that had the fewest deficiencies, toxicity and necrosis. Just nice healthy leaves all over. It beat my previous yields by nearly 20%


I forgot #5...

5) Keeping a healthy root system/importance of rootmass/container size/time spent in pot.
 
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